Author Topic: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal  (Read 1071844 times)

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Offline Uho

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1775 on: April 23, 2015, 05:57:50 am »
eneuro
Nor what software solutions can not fix a bad sensor. His real resolution of 100x75. Low sensitivity. I tried to increase the sensitivity. Put a large lens. It did not help. Even the sensitivity Flir one above. And you forgot about the shutter. It works very often. A Heimann sensors do not require a shutter.
   Why spend the money and then spend more additionally reworking? After all, the circular motion requires motors and control board.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:03:24 am by Uho »
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1776 on: April 23, 2015, 08:50:44 am »
After all, the circular motion requires motors and control board.
Using any camera requires operator too. Sometimes is more comfortable just put camera on tripod and... controll it from remote location, so automatic measurements can be made and data recorded for futher analysis, so we need to position camera to interesting spots using motors.
One stepper motor more for circular motion not such a big deal.
BTW: If you use those crappy phones thermal toys in your hands without image stabilisation you can have great sensors and end with complete mess in the scene, so for more serious work tripod, connect this thing to laptop with Nvidia CUDA GPU and let it perform programmed task and output text report if needed  :popcorn:
12oV4dWZCAia7vXBzQzBF9wAt1U3JWZkpk
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Offline Trax

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1777 on: April 23, 2015, 09:01:27 am »
How limited is the Flir one's sensor incomparation to the seek thermal.
it seams that the seek thermal has -40C to 330C @ 206 x 156
while the flir one can only work with 0°C to 100°C @ 80x60
edit: flir one v2 can -20° to 120°C @ 180x120

I understand that seek thermal is a crap in comparation to professional hardware,
but how does it compare to the only competition in its price range the flir one, and if possible to the flir one v2 (there must be already some specks on the new lepton sensor available, right)?

Also if anyone is willing to sell some working old professional hardware for < 300€ incl shipment and tax I would be interested.

When I think about what I would probably want to do with it i come up with the following use cases
1. playing around as already mentioned
2. taking a look into my breaker box if there are no bad contacts running hot
3. probably looking on some electronics to check if no power components are running to hot
4. I don't know how realistic this is even with professional hardware but may be see where (cable) ducts are inside the walls?
5. look what my 3d printer is doing (I'm aware that with the Flir one it wont work for the extruder region...)

Also does anyone know when the flir one v2 will be available  in Europe?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 09:10:18 am by Trax »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1778 on: April 23, 2015, 01:10:57 pm »
@Uho and @Marco, yes the frame rate is limited to 9fps, the readout cannot go any faster without saturating the amplifiers, and there is also a pixel time constant of about 100 milliseconds - you'd get really visible trails on images if the frame rate were to go faster with these pixels.

I know what the datasheet says, but the Heimann sensor higher density arrays have smaller pixels than the lower density ones ... I have a really hard time believing the time constant just happened to shoot up to the point where the optimal FPS for readout just happens to be equal to the the number necessary for it to be distributable without permits.
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1779 on: April 24, 2015, 05:34:03 am »
con on people why no one answers to my questions, you don't like me or what  :'(
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1780 on: April 24, 2015, 08:02:48 am »
@Trax,

No idea why people appear to ignore you in this thread.

My honest impression is that you want a toy to play with that might just be useful as well.

Well the SEEK is such a 'toy' but you could achieve the 'useful' objectives with a cheap IR thermometer. If you you are trying to convince yourself that the expenditure is justified by the practical uses that you have stated, you are kidding yourself  ;D

If you want to see what thermal imaging is, then go buy the SEEK and play to your hearts content. If you want a serious thermal imaging camera that does not need to be fettled with alternative software, circular motion enhancements and a healthy dose of forgiveness "because its cheap", look elsewhere.

Sorry if this response appears harsh, but it is, IMHO, a pretty fair view of the situation.

I personally would wait for the FLIR ONE MkII. It may cost a little more than the SEEK (unconfirmed) but it is more likely to be a finished and polished product that works well.
Please also be aware that the SEEK resolution is a pointless specification when the units noise issues are considered. Also every 15th pixel is disabled on the SEEK microbolometer to meet FLIR patent restrictions. SEEK claim no issue with this but I remain unimpressed.

Food for thought  :-//

Aurora
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:06:35 am by Aurora »
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Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1781 on: April 24, 2015, 09:29:47 am »
con on people why no one answers to my questions, you don't like me or what  :'(
From what I've read you have got many answers...

I can say "Yes seek thermal will fulfil all your needs" but the truth is that it probably won't.

I have seek module, it's my first thermal camera and I wish I would just buy Flir E4 when it's on 20%-30% discount (every few months).
The difference in price is not that big since I paid close to 400$ to get the seek module to EU.
The difference in quality is huge, specially when you convert it to E8+.

The biggest disadvantage of seek is noise and inability to set the fixed thermal range.

I've done close to 100 hours of programming the alternative (win) software with steppers moving seek. It works, but now I regret wasting my time...

When I need to see something thermal I just put in on the phone and try to deal with all the shortcomings.

If someone would write better android software I would be willing to pay for it.
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1782 on: April 24, 2015, 10:24:28 am »
I have found this great comparison between Flir One, Seek Thermal and Therm-App.
The images tell it all. Flir One is terrible without MSX. Seek Thermal is noisy. Therm-App is great but expensive.
http://www.survtech.com.au/Thermal/
http://www.survtech.com.au/Thermal/therm-app-2.html

Therm-App:


Seek Thermal:


Flir One:


(Seek and Flir One resized to 384px by width)

 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1783 on: April 24, 2015, 11:46:51 am »
I have to agree with Frenky,

If anyone can possibly afford the FLIR E4 then they are buying a 'real' thermal camera and not a toy that must be tolerated or modified to work in a satisfactory manner.

I am the dreaded professional user of thermal cameras and I am very demanding of my equipment. That is just my perfectionist personality and I do not apologise for that. If something is not up to scratch I say so.

For me the greatest step forward in affordable thermal imaging cameras is the FLIR E4 FULL STOP. I bought one soon after its release and upgraded it to 320x240. It also has the additional menu's including digital zoom, manual span etc.

To put this in perspective. I own a lot of thermal imaging camera equipment. Most of it FLIR and NEC AVIO professional kit plus some Ex Fire Department units. Which camera do I regularly reach for when wanting to do a quick check on something....... The E4. It is easy to use, fast to boot and does the job in all but the most demanding tasking. I must admit that it is only so good because of the E8+ upgrades. In the original 80x60 resolution crippled state with noise generator running and no extra menu functions it was mediocre.

I know this is the SEEK thread and we have been around the houses several times discussing whether the SEEK is worth the money, any good or just a toy. We all have our own views (as we should). My personal view is that if you buy a cheap SEEK thermal camera and have to spend hours writing new software for it, and then doing other hardware improvements to make it acceptable for use, you are wasting your life. Unless , of course,  you love doing such R&D on a sub standard product. Save up, get a loan or whatever and buy an E4, upgrade it and live your life in happiness with a thermal camera that will meet most users needs. It also has a wonderful support base on this forum. I really don't think the SEEK comes into the same league in ANY respect. It is basically a 'Damp Squib'  ;D

Aurora
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:49:47 am by Aurora »
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Offline Marco

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1784 on: April 24, 2015, 01:42:29 pm »
I have found this great comparison between Flir One, Seek Thermal and Therm-App.
The images tell it all. Flir One is terrible without MSX.

Why would you not use MSX? That Therm-App image is clearly using some kind of fusion algorithm (all that blah about it being patented is silly, algorithms for this are ancient history ... this is 80's tech).
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1785 on: April 24, 2015, 01:57:55 pm »
The MSX doesn't increase thermal resolution. So in the dark it's useless.
Therm-App has 384 x 288 thermal resolution vs 80x60 in the Flir One.

That Therm-App image is clearly using some kind of fusion algorithm
I don't think so. There is no additional camera lens on the Therm-App.

But Flir One costs 350$ and Therm-App cost 1800$ so the difference is expected.

This two images were captured in the dark:

Therm-App


Flir One:
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1786 on: April 24, 2015, 02:24:32 pm »
Just to keep the balance here. Thermal imaging technology was, and is, designed to provide an accurate view of temperature level and distribution in a scene under investigation. It was not, and is not, designed to produce 'pretty' pictures. Such is very difficult in the thermal domain, unlike the visual domain. Artists are experimenting with the technology though, and the BBC have been using it to good effect for (relatively) high resolution imaging of wildlife.

The increase in resolution is very expensive but does produce 'cleaner' images. In the more affordable cameras running lower resolutions, it is helpful to see some context in the image so that the location of 'areas of interest' may be ascertained. One method of achieving this is using a higher resolution thermal imaging FPA, but these bring with them increased cost. 320x240 resolution FPA's do produce an image that the human brain can correlate with the visible domain in order to localise the area of interest. 80x60 resolution is a little more challenging, especially when working at some distance from the area of interest. The solution is often to move much closed to the target in order to gain a better understanding of the scene. Image fusion and image edge detail overlays are designed to provide the user with the context that would otherwise be missing. This in turn helps the user to recognise the area of interest. It should also be noted that scenes with low delta T across them are particularly hard to understand as the thermal contrast in the image is relatively flat. In such cases the target may be artificially stimulated to create thermal contrast, or 'markers' can be used to create points of reference. A marker may be created with nothing more complex than a heat gun or even a humans finger thermal transfer. If a visible overlay is available, it provides the points of reference needed by the user. In darkness near IR or visible light may be required.

Even the FLIR One Mk1 can be usefully applied to a situation where the temperature of a specific point in the field of view is desired.  Do you really need to see every nuance of a circuit breakers shape in order to see that it is the only one running hotter than the others ? I think not. Can a 80x60 FPA detect a hot or cold spot on a wall ? Yes, if the thermal contrast is adequate.  If someone does wildlife photography in the dark then the situation is very different. The higher the resolution the better ! Horses for courses  :)

The SEEK claimed the advantage of higher resolution than the FLIR One, but it squandered that so claimed advantage with high image noise levels, less than ideal optics and a pretty poor software app that cannot set spans or even emissivity.

A final comment to end upon......

Thermal imaging has been the preserve of the rich for many years. Only recently has it been possible to buy used or new thermal camera technology without breaking the bank of most hobbyists. We are very fortunate to have this technology available to us. As a technology it uses the camera principles of EM wave collection through a lens and projection of such onto a surface that captures an image. It is very different to the modern digital cameras with which we are familiar however. It is relatively low resolution and the optics are very simple in most thermal cameras. When compared to the modern digital visible light camera, the thermal camera has more in common with a cheap web cam ! That is just the state of the technology as it stands today. It meets the needs of the market so there is little incentive for manufacturers to create new and highly expensive complex optical blocks. Much image processing is applied to the thermal data from the FPA in order to tidy it up for the user. It is still prone to some noise and softening of edges however.

Now military thermal imaging is a very different matter.....but we mere mortals are unlikely to get our hands on that sort of imaging equipment any time soon. 

Aurora
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 02:46:25 pm by Aurora »
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Offline Uho

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1787 on: April 24, 2015, 04:28:20 pm »
Using a macro lens to Seek Thermal. I used lenses with different focal lengths. Maybe someone else interested. You can see it here http://youtu.be/v34VBoi11JA .
 

Offline efahrenholz

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1788 on: April 24, 2015, 04:52:25 pm »
I believe I saw somewhere that the therm-app was listed at around $1k. This device is in another galaxy compared to the Seek and Flir One. It's running on a smartphone like the others, so we will just say they are all spiral galaxies. But it's in its own entirely. Looking at the pictures it produces, the exceptionally low noise, higher than standard resolution, and flexibility as a mobile phone peripheral make it a very sexy camera.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1789 on: April 24, 2015, 05:23:37 pm »
Now military thermal imaging is a very different matter.....but we mere mortals are unlikely to get our hands on that sort of imaging equipment any time soon. 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1790 on: April 24, 2015, 05:30:22 pm »
@Mike,

Nah that's just circa year 2000 long range surveillance kit from IRAQ ;)

The Military kit I am talking about is based upon true high resolution multi megapixel arrays and stuff that I'll not talk about here  :)

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Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1791 on: April 24, 2015, 05:42:54 pm »
@Mike

And just so as not to be outdone by your monster lens....here is mine  :-DD

Not sure which has the greater magnification. Your conventional 2 element lens or my Mirror Reflector lens. Both are very nice though  :)

We 'boys and our toys' eh  ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:10:17 pm by Aurora »
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Offline Trax

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1792 on: April 24, 2015, 06:29:03 pm »
@Aurora

>My honest impression is that you want a toy to play with that might just be useful as well.

exactly :D

How does a patent can be bypassed by disabling every 15th pixel that does not sound logic.

I guess I will indeed wait for the FLIR ONE MkII or if that takes to long
I will get a naked lepton sensor and hoop it up to some RasPi...


@frenky
>From what I've read you have got many answers...
Try explaining what is thunder to a cave man :D
You may give him a lot of answers without actually answering any of his questions, at least from his point of view ;)

I'm a total noob to thermal imaging so thats kind of a similar situation  ::)

how cheep do the flir e4 get? My impression is that its not even close to what a seek thermal or a flir one cost.

Trax
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1793 on: April 24, 2015, 07:03:20 pm »
Well define "close". ;)

Take a look at this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg631169/#msg631169
http://www.zoro.com/i/G5281245/

So this web shop "zoro" sells Flir E4 at 995$ but has occasional promotion with 30% off. So you could get E4 for 696,5$.
That is if you know anyone in the US that will buy it for you.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:07:12 pm by frenky »
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1794 on: April 24, 2015, 07:09:38 pm »
That is still twice of what a Flir one costs, so its not even close.
 

Offline efahrenholz

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1795 on: April 24, 2015, 07:13:12 pm »
The E4 by Flir can be had for around $1k. Being able to convert it to the 320x240 resolution that made it famous around here is another story. My understanding is that the newer firmwares break the exploit. When people talk about how awesome this model is, they are taking about it from the perspective of someone who successfully modified it to the higher resolution. They actually come standard at a much lower resolution via crippleware. The fleabay units that can be still modified are sold at a premium, but are still much cheaper than an E8.

Im still betting on the Flir One MkII. The release is approaching fast and when it does, it will likely kill the current cheap thermal imager market by leaps and bounds. Flir is a bully for sure, but they are successful because they stay competitive. Unless Seek releases a major fix to the camera software, they will turn into a one hit wonder. The XR isn't that popular with people considering the price increase. They decided to *increase* the original models price to make it feel like less of a leap to the XR. Basically trying to get people on the fence about going all the way to just go for it. That only goes over well with people if your price started that way. You can't add $50 to the base model price and say hey its only $50 more for the manual focus and 3x zoom! Especially worse is that the XR price was listed before they increased the base model price. That's just bone headed.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1796 on: April 24, 2015, 07:24:29 pm »
@Trax,

Yes twice the price, but no need for a mobile phone, 4 times the resolution and IMHO infinitely more useful  ;)  Bangs per buck, the E4 (when upgraded by the user) blows the old FLIR ONE away.  The new FLIR ONE Android/iOS is due out at the latter part of 2015 and may well give the E4 some decent competition as it comes with 160x120 resolution (half that of the E4) and a suggested price tag close to that of the old FLIR ONE. Quite a deal. But when will it really become available .......  :-//

Also consider resale values.... I suggest that the E4 will hold its value well as it has the 320x240 resolution and enhanced menu's when upgraded. The old FLIR ONE and new Android/iOS versions are very limited in terms of facilities and what, if anything, can be done to enhance them.

It all comes down to what you really want....... $250 in your pocket, $250 spent on life's necessities, or a $250 toy to play with. It is little different to buying a radio control plane or car. If you do not have a serious use for a thermal camera, make your decision as you would when buying any other toy.  And remember, no matter what camera you buy, if you really do not have a use for it, the initial thrill of ownership will fade with time and you may wish to sell it on. Once the new FLIR ONE is released, I predict the current SEEK camera will be severely devalued on the used marketplace.

Aurora
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1797 on: April 24, 2015, 07:33:37 pm »
@efahrenholz

FLIR have tried on several occasions to block the upgrade path to higher resolution and additional menus. they have singularly failed in their efforts on each and every occasion. The latest countermeasure involved encryption and that looked the most challenging to overcome. A bright chap on this forum approached the challenge from a different angle and completely circumvented the encryption !

The E4 remains open to upgrade. There is a whole thread dedicated to this topic.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/

Guide to hacking the latest 2.3 firmware.

http://fubar.gr/hacking-the-flir-e4/

There is good reason that the E4 is much loved by its owners....it is the cheapest 320x240 pixel (capable) thermal camera in the World  and can be enhanced to a specification higher than the top of the range Ex series cameras that cost many thousands of Dollars.

Those still wondering about an E4 purchase take the risk that FLIR will either release a new (better protected) firmware or delete the camera in favour of another new model that cannot be upgraded (Lepton 80x60 based ?)

Aurora
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:39:50 pm by Aurora »
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Offline Trax

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1798 on: April 24, 2015, 07:37:25 pm »
I'm usually not spending money past 300€ for a toy, no matter how sophisticated it may be...

And I never sell my toys, unless there is someone willing to pay more for it than I did :D

No need for a mobile phone, but if you already have one its not a down side.
I would actually value the fact that the Flir one v2 is only a small gadget, as than you can easier take it every ware with you in a small case or so.
Try doing that with a E4 that looks like a gun (if I would live in the US that would be a substantial risk of getting shot by a cop LOL)

As said already I think the best option for me would be to wait for the Flir ONE v2, or go the cheapest way and get a naked lepton sensor.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1799 on: April 24, 2015, 07:42:35 pm »
If opting to go the 'naked' Lepton route you may wish to contact Mike on this forum as he built a tiny thermal camera complete with display using a naked Lepton core. He posted a few messages up this page showing his Military long range camera.



Aurora
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:48:29 pm by Aurora »
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