Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal

[tom66]

How do you buy one of these in the UK? Anyone selling theirs (Android)?

[all_repair]

Push my button to put in an order with Amazon to ship my forwarder at Oregon.   

[Fraser]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

[JcDenton]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

I sold mine to buy the flir android.. Not sure if that was a dumb move, but the higher resolution flir sounds really nice.  I don't like that it runs on it's own battery though, because eventually a battery like that will die, and then what.  Will they sell replacement batteries for it?  Also why not design the unit in such a way to use the phone or tablets camera, so all your money goes towards the thermal imager.  Of course the parallax problem, but if you made the attachment similar to the thermapp it could be right next to the camera.  I read on another forum, that the flir 1 android was coming out very soon, so I guess we will see.

[all_repair]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

As it is, SEEK is good enough for my field application, but since you have spoken, I have put in  a cancel request to my order.   

[All Seeing Eye]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

The new second-generation SEEK seem to come out right away?

[WS-PI]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

The new FLIR One has still one limitation : Scene temperature range: -4°F to 248°F (-20° to 120°C).
For checking the temperature of power electronics that is not enough. Here the Seek will still be my favorite with-40C to 330C detection. Especially as my comparision to a Flir T335 showed sufficient accuracy for temperatures above room temp.

[-jeffB]

Also why not design the unit in such a way to use the phone or tablets camera, so all your money goes towards the thermal imager.  Of course the parallax problem, but if you made the attachment similar to the thermapp it could be right next to the camera.

It's not just parallax. Different phone cams have different fields of view and resolution, in addition to the unpredictable placement and orientation of camera vs. USB port. Low-res, fixed-focus visible cams are dirt-cheap; bundling one with a known geometry seems like a big win to me.

[Fraser]

Unlike Apple, I have not seen evidence of FLIR making their cameras disposable after battery failure. Small Li-Ion packs are available as replacements for most formats anyway. I honestly believe that, even if more expensive, the FLIR One new version will outperform the SEEK in terms of image quality and processing (inc. MSX) I have been impressed with what was achieved with an 80x60 LEPTON, a 160x120 will make a huge difference IMHO. Resolution matters not a jot if the post capture processing and noise is poorly handled.

Now that the SEEK is working without a gradient visible, I am keeping it for my collection but I will definitely be buying the new FLIR One Android. Sadly if I am any sort of indicator of others view of the SEEK vs FLIR One Android, I see the SEEK fading away into obscurity unless something radical occurs to improve performance.

With regard to the new SEEK with narrower field of view........ oh dear what'a mistake'a to make'a !

Industrial thermal cameras often came fitted with 24 degree FOV lenses. These were suited to capturing images with a target some distance away. Anyone who had to work inside buildings and cramped spaces soon found 24 Degrees very limiting. Those users had to fork out for an auxiliary lens that increased the FOV to around 45 Degrees. FLIR recognised this situation and decided that the FLIR E series would be fitted with a lens that better suited most users, namely the ~35 Degree FOV lens. SEEK were smart in using an intermediate FOV lens like that of the E4, but the new SEEK has quite a narrow FOV for many building related situations. A smarter move would have been to produce a new camera that could be fitted with one of a range of lenses that are manual focus. It would then be a very versatile little tool. Owners could buy the relatively low cost lens 'modules' to suit their needs. It would certainly be great to have a set of affordable thermal lenses covering 4, 7, 20,40,60,90 and 140 Degrees ! Such would make the SEEK unique in the market at its present price point. Even the new FLIR One would not be able to compete at that levels as the lens is integrated into the LEPTON core. It it would have taken would have been a standard M12 threaded mount as found on PCB cameras and a set of thermal optical elements built into the same format of M12 lenses found in PCB cameras. Not rocket science and an opportunity yet to be embraced by SEEK Thermal.

Imagine being able to select a lens from a list like that shown on this web site, but in the thermal imaging domain ! That would be really something !

http://www.vd-shop.de/megapixel-minilenses-c-193_201_208.html

http://www.vd-shop.de/fisheye-m12-mini-lenses-c-193_201_257.html

Umicore offer a selection of small thermal lenses but they are expensive. They do not need to be.

http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/

Another avenue of investigation for SEEK should be making a camera with a Chalcogenide glass filter in front of the microbolometer and then using ZnSe optics rather than Chaclogenide glass. Presumably cheaper ?

Lens transmission differences are normally dealt with on more expensive cameras by entering the lens type in a menu option of by auto ID methods. Each lens characteristic is pre-programmed into the camera so it knows the offsets needed for accurate measurements.

If Seek Thermal could make their product significantly different in what it offers compared to the new FLIR One , then they have a chance.

Aurora

[joe-c]

Hello,
My Seek arrived 2 Weeks ago. Sadly I have no Android Device which gets it working.
But I solder the USB internal and use the Camera on my PC.

At this Point... thanks @miguelvp for providing a working sample. 
I change some parts for me… maybe interesting for you:
- all the needed Source (include USB) is now in one File… SeekThermal.cs
 This is better for implanting it in other projects… like my  Thermoviewer:
http://joe-c.de/pages/posts/programm_thermalviewer_120.php#ver007
- I change the Projekt to a .net 3.5 Framework, because I will develop with sharpdevelop 3.2 (http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/)
This is a little bit old… but with this you could also develop on compact framework, this is why I still use that version.
- Additional color palettes (was created at runtime and could easy changed)
- some more changes you will find, if you explore the code… like a direct processed image function

There are still 3 huge workarounds:
1. true temperature calculation
2. better calibration
3. reconnecting the camera (actual only the first startup works)

I will try a gainmap next time... this is a similar way to the calibration of my FLIR E4.
Theoretically it haves the following steps:
1. take a image from a even heated cold surface (maybe a tec) and store as cold_data
2. take a image from a even heated hot surface (heating plate) and store as hot_data
3. calculate the gain (difference) for each pixel (maybe with automatic defect pixel detection) and store it as gainmap
4. apply the gain value to the image data from camera to get a clear image

Well… happy seeking

[eneuro]

I honestly believe that, even if more expensive, the FLIR One new version will outperform the SEEK in terms of image quality and processing (inc. MSX)

Maybe on crappy phone with limited processing power, but there are use cases where even this Seek thermal versions with powerfull PC OpenCV processing and implemented hardware circular motion as well as smimplicity to write own PC app optimized for mlticore powerfull modern procesors is advantage in many research projects

BTW: MSX is strange name for very simple thing

FLIR? - NO THANKS!

[miguelvp]

Thanks joe-c, I'm glad you are giving support for the Seek

We are in good hands now 

[efahrenholz]

I wonder if eneuros statement about making hardware changes is true. If they made a hardware revision, it would explain the cost recouporation. A $50 jump in price on something at $200 is a large jump. That's a 25% increase. If they didn't make a hardware revision, then I'm not sure why they felt it was necessary to raise the price. They sell loads of these things daily. Perhaps the manufacturer demanded more money in order to keep up with production of now two modules.

[Uho]

joe-c.
Thank you for the program.
You did not try to eliminate the gradient? I have a large gradient.

[-jeffB]

Another avenue of investigation for SEEK should be making a camera with a Chalcogenide glass filter in front of the microbolometer and then using ZnSe optics rather than Chaclogenide glass. Presumably cheaper ?

I'm confused here. ZnSe is a chalcogenide. I know I'm taking an overly-literal approach, but what other chalcogenides are you contrasting it with?

I'm also trying to figure out where I missed the announcement that the "3x Zoom" lens was actually a fixed-field-of-view (and thus fixed-"zoom"), variable-focus lens. If SEEK is only advertising a single figure for field-of-view angle, it's possible that that was just a goof on the part of the marketing folks. If there are other announcements that indicate it really isn't going to be a zoom, could someone link to them?

I assume that folks like FLIR wouldn't market a zoom lens because it would be too hard for them to maintain calibration as it moved through its zoom range. For a qualitatively-oriented rather than quantitatively-oriented device like the SEEK, I can imagine that many folks would like to have a zoom range, even if it means temperature readings are only accurate at one point in the range.

[Fraser]

Chalcogenide Glass as in 'GASIR' versus ZnSe

http://www.lightpath.com/products/infrared-optics/thermal-imaging-optics.html

[WS-PI]

Another avenue of investigation for SEEK should be making a camera with a Chalcogenide glass filter in front of the microbolometer and then using ZnSe optics rather than Chaclogenide glass. Presumably cheaper ?

I'm confused here. ZnSe is a chalcogenide. I know I'm taking an overly-literal approach, but what other chalcogenides are you contrasting it with?

I'm also trying to figure out where I missed the announcement that the "3x Zoom" lens was actually a fixed-field-of-view (and thus fixed-"zoom"), variable-focus lens. If SEEK is only advertising a single figure for field-of-view angle, it's possible that that was just a goof on the part of the marketing folks. If there are other announcements that indicate it really isn't going to be a zoom, could someone link to them?

I assume that folks like FLIR wouldn't market a zoom lens because it would be too hard for them to maintain calibration as it moved through its zoom range. For a qualitatively-oriented rather than quantitatively-oriented device like the SEEK, I can imagine that many folks would like to have a zoom range, even if it means temperature readings are only accurate at one point in the range.

In the press info from Seek no zoom function is mentioned. Only Extended range and Manual Focus.


NEW SEEK THERMAL CAMERA MAKES IT EASY TO FOCUS IN ON YOUR TARGET
$299 Smartphone Accessory for iOS and Android Lets You See the Unseen
LAS VEGAS – JANUARY 20, 2014 – Today at the SHOT Show® Industry Day at the Range,
Seek
Thermal™ announced the Seek XR, an extended range version of its award-winning thermal camera.
Created with outdoor enthusiasts in mind, the Seek XR allows people to literally see heat, making it
possible to spot people and animals in total darkness.
For hunters, the Seek XR can be used in daylight, the dark, or in obscured visibility conditions. It’s useful
for scouting, bloodtrailing, hunting game, and much more.
The new Seek XR has a manual focus lens for viewing objects at close range, or at distances of up to
2,000 feet. The Seek XR will be available in January for both iOS and Android devices for $299 at
thermal.com and Amazon.
“Until recently, the price of thermal imaging has kept it out of reach for almost everybody except military
and law enforcement,” said Seek Thermal founder, Bill Parrish. “Last year we introduced the first
consumer thermal camera, and this new, extended-range camera is based in part on the specific
feedback we received from gun experts, law enforcement, boaters and other people excited about
thermal imaging.”
http://www.thermal.com/img/press-assets/release/seek_thermal_pr_1-20-15.pdf

[iRad]

The XR cameras are now available for purchase!

[marshallh]

If anyone outside the US really needs one of these let me know. I have reshipped before

The FLIR One (two?) with its 180x120 is going to blow the crap out of the currently shipping Seek. However, it will probably cost 3x as much. The problem is that even for $200 while you get an amazing deal, it's still not usable for many things.

[all_repair]

Think very carefully before buying the SEEK. The new FLIR One will likely blow it away.

The new FLIR One has still one limitation : Scene temperature range: -4°F to 248°F (-20° to 120°C).
For checking the temperature of power electronics that is not enough. Here the Seek will still be my favorite with-40C to 330C detection. Especially as my comparision to a Flir T335 showed sufficient accuracy for temperatures above room temp.

Now I recall why I did not rule SEEK out.  Thanks for your note.  My cancellation did not go through,  Amazon already packed my order.  For electronics work, then SEEK probably my better choice.  My E4 has more than recovered its cover in identifying shorted parts(too hot), blown parts (too cold), exact locations of shorted keyboard membrane, etc etc.  The circular len housing shall be easier for me to do some hot-glue-casted len holder for various lenses for close-up work. 

[-jeffB]

Chalcogenide Glass as in 'GASIR' versus ZnSe

http://www.lightpath.com/products/infrared-optics/thermal-imaging-optics.html

I must be really slow tonight. I read this, plus the two links in your signature, and I didn't see any comparison between ZnSe and the "other" chalcogenide glasses. The one paper did mention adding Ge as a third component, but didn't give details.

As an old chemistry geek, I think of "chalcogens" as oxygen, sulfur, selenium, and tellurium. Chalcogenides are compounds with one of those elements -- zinc selenide (ZnSe), for example. I have no doubt that different formulations have different optical, physical, and manufacturing properties. But when you talk about "ZnSe versus chalcogenides", I just get confused. Can you say anything about the composition of the other glasses you're comparing?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't recall ever seeing ZnSe used in thermal imagers.
The relevant comparison is Germanium versus Chalcogenide glass, the latter being cheaper to manufacture lenses from, being mouldable

[stak]

FLIR says they are looking to get the price on the ONE 2015 (as they are calling the new version) to $250 and it should be available for pre-order mid-year. If it's like the original though they won't be shipping until August.

If SEEK keeps the prices at $250/$300 I think FLIR will go as high as $350. FLIR will probably do marketing based on experience, quality, and customer service. With MSX the 180x120, even at a $50-$100 higher price point, will probably be enough to kill SEEK if SEEK doesn't rapidly step up software and firmware improvements. If SEEK drops to $200/$250 they could probably continue to still compete vs. $350 as the SEEK stays in the "reasonably affordable" price range where they could market as "half the price".

The thing is though FLIR probably has the bank account to withstand operating at much slimmer margins, and maybe even loss leader for a while, to crush competitors. If FLIR were to launch the ONE 2015 anywhere near $250 I don't see SEEK being able to compete with their current offerings.

That would be sad to me, because I think SEEK has a good product and every company needs to have at least one good competitor to keep them honest which leads to greater innovation and reduced costs to us.

[JcDenton]

FLIR says they are looking to get the price on the ONE 2015 (as they are calling the new version) to $250 and it should be available for pre-order mid-year. If it's like the original though they won't be shipping until August.

Are you sure about this?  I read a post where someone said he recently talked with a flir rep, and said the android version was coming out in a week or so.

[efahrenholz]

FLIR says they are looking to get the price on the ONE 2015 (as they are calling the new version) to $250 and it should be available for pre-order mid-year. If it's like the original though they won't be shipping until August.

Are you sure about this?  I read a post where someone said he recently talked with a flir rep, and said the android version was coming out in a week or so.

Do you have a credible source to verify this?  This sounds like a 'my hairdresser has a friend who knows this beta tester that was told by an insider at [insert tech company] that the [insert tech product] will have usb 4.0 '