Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal

[efahrenholz]

It is probably more difficult to compensate. From mike's video it seems to be dependend on the temperature: If the measured temperature is at the same temperature as the lens assembly, there is almost no gradient, but looking at a much warmer or colder object, the gradient gets more pronounced.

@Hyperion
Considering the temperature span of about 100°C the gradient looks much worse than 2-3°C in your image, more like 10-20°C.

I had written a lot useless garbage that basically summed up what you just said. In other words, agreed. The gradient is relative to the temperature range that the palette is applied to. If the scene only changes 10-20 degrees, the palette compresses to match the span, a 3 degree inaccuracy on one side will appear to be well over 30 shades of a color change.

A scene with flat temperature across it (floor, wall, etc) will look horrible visually if the correction doesn't compensate for even a few degrees of error anywhere


.

[Fraser]

Just in case anyone reading this thread gets the impression that the forum members have been 'bashing' the SEEK camera or company, such could not be further from the truth. This is a new and exciting product that offers much to the user community, and we all want it to be as good as it can be. Sometimes it is necessary to expose issues and deficiencies in a design in order to correct them and make the final product better. That is exactly what is happening in this thread. It is at teh heart of User Acceptance Testing (UAT) and a valid testing and development  process.

As has been stated, it would be a challenge to create the equivalent to a multi thousand $ thermal camera using a $199 piece of embryonic technology. I am not aware of anyone trying to turn the SEEK into a FLIR E8 in terms of performance. Such would be an unreasonable ambition until the 12uM microbolometer technology and associated optics have gone through more iterations. Given time and the continued integration of technology, as shown by the FLIR LEPTON, it may be possible.

I fully support SEEK in their ambition to make thermal imaging technology available to the masses and would not wish to harm them in any way. It is important however that SEEK mainatin their communications with their customer base and potential customers to ensure market coinfidence in the company. Even a holding response to some question is adequate in many cases as people then do not feel ignored.

I am still very much looking forward to receiving my SEEK thermal camera module. I took delivery of a $30,000 Bosch MIC 412 'Metal Mickey' dual tech 320x240 thermal CCTV camera yesterday and yet I am still engaging in this thread on the relatively inexpensive SEEK unit ! I am excited about both purchases for different reasons, and they will serve me in very different ways. I do think the SEEK camera has a very professional appearance and the quality of materials used is also excellent. They could so easily have used a cheap plastic case and lens tube.

Aurora

[datsthat]

My first post.  I own a seek thermal camera.  I wonder if Seek released prior to fully UAT?  If so, I wonder why they didn't catch the gradient issue or maybe they didn't think it was a concern.  I am very happy with my seek, but would be even happier once the gradient issue is resolved.  The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.  I plan on using the mode where you can specify a temp and the app will show any temp either above or below your desired temp.....I want to enter a low enough temp that should pick up life such as 60 degrees (outside temp 40-50degrees), but with the gradient issue, I now have to select 68 degrees to prevent the gradient.  I hope what I said made sense.

I feel that Seek needs to address the angry customers.  I used to be angry until I got mine which was late, but better late than never.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I get the general impression that they launched a little before they should have/ would have liked to, but had to get something out to steal market from the Flir One
It still seems units are shipping slowly, which could indicate that some production issues are still being worked out. Someone on the FB page estimated around 300 units per day based on a few sample points of order number & date, though there seem to be a number of reports of out-of-sequence shipping.
No sign of Iphone units shipping yet-my guess is they're getting the app & firmware improved on Android, as getting an update approved in the Apple store is harder so they'd like to only do it once.   

[efahrenholz]

The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.

The gradient issue is really only a problem for people using the camera for commercial applications like heat leak or moisture inspections, electronics thermal characteristics, or anything that needs a very flat field. Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient. Which this sensor, even if somewhat handicapped, does effortlessly. If all you are after is detection of a somewhat warmer object from its surroundings, the minimal gradient shouldn't cause any problems. Its really more of annoyance that debilitating. I think this whole design is full of win, and it seems more than adequate...but I think there's plenty of juice left in the lemons.

[miguelvp]

To me the gradient issue is still up in the air, might be fixed by software, the boiling water above could be aggravated by steam since it doesn't match the pattern that we have seen.

As for early release, maybe, I'm happy with mine and for the $200 it costs it serves my needs to winterize my house.

It still need better software to cover their claims of finding studs behind walls but that's just adding features to the app. Also they do claim in their advertising about finding water damage, so it's not like we are asking for things not promised. Still I think is more of a software issue at the moment than a real hardware one.

As for the reason why they need the unused pixels, I wouldn't expect for them to tell us because it can be used against them if some competitor finds some hole in their claims. Open is one thing but wide open might hurt them, specially taking into account the history behind their company, they are not new to litigation hurting their bottom line.

So let them focus on what they need to do and ramp up production which that might be a harder thing to deal with because sometimes logistics get in the way of a successful product.

[datsthat]

The reason why it is important to me is because my main purpose for this device is to simply scan my immedieate area for life (humans and/or animals) while I go on night hikes using NOD.  I hike in an area with wildlife and it freaks me out when I hear something rattling the leaves.

The gradient issue is really only a problem for people using the camera for commercial applications like heat leak or moisture inspections, electronics thermal characteristics, or anything that needs a very flat field. Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient. Which this sensor, even if somewhat handicapped, does effortlessly. If all you are after is detection of a somewhat warmer object from its surroundings, the minimal gradient shouldn't cause any problems. Its really more of annoyance that debilitating. I think this whole design is full of win, and it seems more than adequate...but I think there's plenty of juice left in the lemons.

The reason why the gradient is an issue for me is because I am not able to set the temp low enough to ensure Seek doen't miss it.  Even though animal's temp is a lot higher than air temp, seek isn't able to distinguish the difference in temp b/c the animals skin will be cooler due to the cold air.  I'll test my theory by going to the woods and search for my son.

My son and wife about 40yds away


3 window washers about 300-400 yds away



Small spot above roof is an aircraft about 400-500yds away

[eneuro]

The inherent issue with this forum is that it brings together a lot of experts and "tech tweakers" who will not be happy until they have a FLIR E8 equivalent device for $200 or a camera that outputs something like this (NSFW?)

I'm happy with this MLX90614   Digital, plug & play, infrared thermometer in a TO-can
while according its datasheet MLX90614 Datasheet (PDF) and product info it fit my main requirements:

"Factory calibrated in wide temperature range: -40 to 125 °C for sensor temperature and -70 to 380 °C for object temperature."

while it costs <$10 and by adding a few low cost components I can detect easy and quickly and what is the most important without any temperature gradients energy losses in house as well as find hot places on ground and do many other things which are not possible to do with device like Seek Thermal, when it has such huge hardware issue like this weird gradient, which makes this thermal camera simply  NOT RELIABLE 

BTW: The only problem with forums is that they are spammed very often by marketing departments of many companies which are looking for good images of their fake products 
So, If got this thing for free, no complains of course, but when I got it for $200, than of course one email to support and If not resolved than simply asking for my money and sending it back as quickly as possible, because of toys shoud cost not more than $100 

[miguelvp]

People should stop making things up.

It's a perfectly fine instrument, it just needs some app love to allow us to adjust what range we are interested in and maybe some minor tweak to the flat field.

This are from my wife's Galaxy S4 with the native Seek code and a hot stove.
It did help me identify that the heat is escaping on the backplane of the stove and not well isolated.

[ricksastro]

A few other notes on the gradient issue:

If I unplug the camera, exit the app and then replug it right away, it generally picks up where it left off gradient-wise, eliminating accumulation of errors as a cause of the gradient.

For temperature sensitivity of the gradient,  I went around and captured the delta temperature (on the hi/lo function) with various items around the house and outside.  I found, for very cold items, the gradient was about 13F at max.  For very hot items, it was about 7F or so.   Here are my examples...very non-exacting , but just trying to get a general trend.  It was interesting the overcast sky was so much colder than ambient (about 53F)...wonder if that's accurate measurement of the vapor in the clouds.     I know for cloudless nights, the bottom really drops out of the indicated sky temperature.  Anyway:

Item              Seek L    Seek H   delta
Hot Water       120       127     7
notepad        72        79       7
deck            52       63       11
Milk             39       49       10
overcast sky   30       43       13
IceCream     19       32       13

BTW, the low temperature tended to be the most accurate.

[efahrenholz]

The temperature accuracy should improve once they nail the profile of the sensor readings. Thermocouples don't change resistance linear to temperature change, and the software engineers probably know that. It just takes time to get it dialed in.

[eneuro]

Scanning for signs of life (hunters, security, front lines combat) isn't so much affected by a gradient.

Not reliable thermal camera is more dangerous than no such thing at all-for example now some drivers with this toy can feel king of the roads and drive very fast in the dark, because of they... have night vision, but... due to many reasons this what they are able to see in different conditions will not be the same so can easy to miss... for example humans on the bike... etc....
It can be very dangerous thing when used out of its limits which are unknown and any issues with its hardware only makes this thing less predictable.

[kiwiradical]

A few kudos where kudos is due! Seek have done a great job in making a perfectly usable thermal camera for $199! That's a truly ground breaking achievement. As well as that their packaging is great, including a robust small carrying case is brilliant, and the unit itself seems robust and nicely executed.

So there are a few issues that will no doubt improve overtime with firmware and software updates. we've already seen a firmware update, and more kudos, nice move making it an automatic process as part of the app update, The thermal gradient issue should improve with better software flat fielding.

However a few wishes....

1/ Make the app available internationally please!!!!! There are enough units already in the non US market already to make ita sensible move. Better these units have access to the most recent app version rather than sideloading dodgy apks. I'm in New Zealand  and have two units already, but cant access the app on Google Play here.

2/ Add a temperature calibration function. The two units I have differ by 4-5 degrees in any temperature measurement. It should be simple to add a user selectable temperature correction.

3/A user selectable 'span' or equivalent to manual exposure/gain would be great. As a thermal imager for amateur search and rescue or animal 'life' detection'outdoors, the inclusion of a any part of a clear sky at night (with its v low temperature) causes the span to change dramatically. Without any sky in the image the Seek works well for this, but image say a tree, with gaps with sky showing between branches, and the span automatically changes so dramatically it becomes near useless to detect anything a few degrees above ambient.

With those simple fixes the Seek would become a lot more useful.

[kiwiradical]

An update, I've just discovered that if I use the direct url for the Thermal App I can install it from New Zealand, even though a search on Google Play won't show it.

Direct url :https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal&hl=en&rdid=com.tyriansystems.SeekThermal

[bktemp]

A few other notes on the gradient issue:

Item              Seek L    Seek H   delta
Hot Water       120       127     7
notepad        72        79       7
deck            52       63       11
Milk             39       49       10
overcast sky   30       43       13
IceCream     19       32       13

BTW, the low temperature tended to be the most accurate.

Tanks for measuring. That is interesting.
It seems like heat is internally injected into the sensor. Therefore the temperature only increases and never decreases and low temperatures are most effected.
It seems like the sensor either sees a part of the lens assembly or some other heat source is reflected back onto the sensor.

I wonder how they plan to compensate that in software.

[miguelvp]

I forgot to ask a co-worker for his Uni-T IR Thermometer to do some calibrations this weekend. If I ask tomorrow I won't get to borrow it until Monday

I wanted to use it to actually compare temperatures.

Edit: I guess I will have to use my DMMs

[Hyperion]

3/A user selectable 'span' or equivalent to manual exposure/gain would be great. As a thermal imager for amateur search and rescue or animal 'life' detection'outdoors, the inclusion of a any part of a clear sky at night (with its v low temperature) causes the span to change dramatically. Without any sky in the image the Seek works well for this, but image say a tree, with gaps with sky showing between branches, and the span automatically changes so dramatically it becomes near useless to detect anything a few degrees above ambient.

In the mean time you could use the mode where you set the temperature limits and it only colours those within the limits.

[eneuro]

It seems like heat is internally injected into the sensor.
...
I wonder how they plan to compensate that in software.

Answer is simply type in Google search "Seek Thermal gradient issue" and what we get?
Yep,  first two hits links to @Mike teardown ONLY and this EEVblog thread .
Their public relations department so far so quite good   
However, I'm surprised that those links are displayed in top of the search rankings while changes in Google search engine might simply put forums threads far away in search results when they implement this:
Google says latest search changes will 'visibly affect' piracy site rankings

"Google is preparing a new tweak to its search engine to ensure that some of the most ‘notorious’ piracy sites are less likely to appear when people search for music, films and other copyrighted content."

It is Christmas time, so they can sell it now without any problems while gadget world doesn't care about technical issues it needs nice looking images to spread them on social media 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Statement on their FB page

Dear Seek Customers:

We apologize again for the delay in shipping cameras. We have had several unanticipated issues that prevented our production from ramping up as quickly as originally planned. We’ve been working closely with our manufacturing partner to address these issues in order to fulfill our backorders as soon as possible.

This is the first time that thermal cameras have been produced on a mass production line, and assembling, aligning, and calibrating the high tech lenses and sensors requires multiple unique steps that have taken longer than we anticipated to ramp up to full capacity. Our company and our manufacturer are both dedicated to continue to increase production as quickly as possible, and we will also be adding a third shift next week. With these measures, and given our current production trends, we hope to catch up with all of the backorders within the next few weeks.

There is an additional issue that is currently preventing us from shipping any further iOS cameras from our existing inventory. Prior to accepting any orders, our cameras received hardware approval from Apple. However, we have recently received unanticipated additional requests from Apple, which we are actively working on with them. We hope to resolve these issues quickly so we can resume shipping the iOS cameras we are now manufacturing and building inventory on.

Our number one priority is getting cameras out to our customers as quickly as possible over the next few weeks.

[Fraser]

Why am I not surprised that Apple are being difficult over their approval. They tend to be a challenging company with which to deal. Great products but a little too controlling for my liking.

[kiwiradical]

[/quote]

In the mean time you could use the mode where you set the temperature limits and it only colours those within the limits.
[/quote]

You can only select one of above, below or equal to. And this does not solve the span issue.

[efahrenholz]

It's really depressing. It must be frustrating when the only holdup in your mechandise chain isn't the manufacturing, programming or distribution...no its the unnecessary step where you wait for the platform to agree it conforms with their design image and the app doesn't do any actions found on the long list of no no's.

[eneuro]

Statement on their FB page

...
Prior to accepting any orders, our cameras received hardware approval from Apple. However, we have recently received unanticipated additional requests from Apple, which we are actively working on with them.
...

Maybe I woke up in some kind of another weird parallel universe today somewhere in the future, where nobody can attach to device he payed piece of hardware made by someone else who knows how to do it than device manufacturer business partners?
Why Seek Thermal can not simply sell this dongle to iOS users as well as other target platforms with software on... yes old good times CD and provide this software for download on HIS OWN web pages? 
It looks like we a're  back in the past at the origins of internet now, but even that time on news groups one could get what he wants even had to wait some time to download it, but probably much less than for any approvals 

Isn't customers who payed for these crappy phones should decide if they want to buy this toy or return it back if it is not this what they want since they bought it via internet so had no chance to play with it in normal shop...

[Kevman]

Why Seek Thermal can not simply sell this dongle to iOS users as well as other target platforms with software on... yes old good times CD and provide this software for download on HIS OWN web pages? 
It looks like we a're  back in the past at the origins of internet now, but even that time on news groups one could get what he wants even had to wait some time to download it, but probably much less than for any approvals 

Isn't customers who payed for these crappy phones should decide if they want to buy this toy or return it back if it is not this what they want since they bought it via internet so had no chance to play with it in normal shop...

Apple is probably the most proprietary-centric consumer product manufacturer out there. Why this would be surprising to anyone is beyond me.

Anyone who wants to connect anything besides headphones to the iPhone has to get Apple approval, because you need a license from them to use the Lightning connector.

[efahrenholz]

Don't give them any ideas, next they will mute the phone audio if unapproved headphones aren't plugged in. Or they could refuse a connection to a Bluetooth audio device if it isn't in the MAC address whitelist.