Smartphones with Thermal Imaging: any thoughts and experience?

[Bicurico]

Hi,

I am wondering (again) if I should get myself a smartphone with a thermal camera.

There are several models, most from somehow obscure manufacturers, you can’t buy in a regular store. The list that interests me (I did not consider older smartphones or those with low screen resolution, under 2160x1080) includes these models:

Cat S62 Pro
Ulefone  Armor 18T, 18T Ultra, 19T
Doogee V31GT (even the brand name sounds little assuring)
Blackview BV9800 Pro
...

The CAT S62 Pro is the most "official" option, you can even buy it at regular stores. However, it has worse specs than the 19T, is a bit outdated, the FLIR module seems to have the same specs and it costs around 600 Euro (out of my budget).

The model I am most inclined to is the Ulefone Armor 19T since it can be bought occasionally for 420 Euro. The problem is, at this price you buy from dodgy sellers (meaning: if you have a problem with the phone, you are on your own). The camera is a FLIR module with 160x120 resolution.

I excluded the Ulefone Armor 18T, because it seems they have an issue with FW upgrade (kernel lock) and as a result these phones brick. With the shipped FW, they apparently reboot themselves a lot. Not sure if this has been fixed on the 18T Ultra. From the little information I researched, the 19T model was a quick fix with a different SoC, though the specs are a bit worse (less CPU performance, worse front camera, and lack of 5G).

The Doogee V31GT has an interesting price vs specs. The thermal camera SEEMS to have 256 x 192 resolution. It can be bought for 520 Euro. Sounds great, but the module is not made by FLIR, but seems a Chinese brand (not saying it is worse because of this, I understand the Chinese government funded thermal imaging R&D due to Covid-19). UPDATE: Just noticed that this thermal module can only cover the range of -15ºC to 150ºC vs -10ºC to 400ºC on the Ulefone FLIR module.

The Blackview BV9800 Pro is the cheapest on my list at currently 400 Euro. All specs are worse than the Ulefone Armor 19T (SoC, RAM, Flash, etc.). No info on the FLIR module resolution. For some subjective reason I cannot explain, I don’t like the phone at all.


Question 1:
Do you guys own any of these (or other) smartphones? If so, what is your general opinion? Do they work? Did they develop some faults (due to cheap base components like the SoC)? etc.

Question 2:
How does the thermal camera perform, compared to stand alone thermal cameras that cost about the same as the whole smartphone with camera?

Question 3:
Considering the life expectancy of a smartphone between 2-4 years, what happens after? Is using the outdated smartphone as a thermal camera functional? If not, why? (i.e. batteries or something I am not thinking off).

Question 4:
I could consider buying a thermal camera module you attach to your phone (available with MicroUSB, USB-C and iPhone connectors). How well do these work? I am not attracted to this option, because I know I won't have the module with me when I need it. Plus, these are almost as expensive as a smartphone with thermal imaging...

Note:

The reasons I am inclined to get a thermal camera are:

1) general interest
2) electronics diagnose to see which components get hot
3) check where the heat in my house is lost
4) trace where (hot) water tubes pass through
5) check for infections on people and cats

Thanks,
Vitor

[Vipitis]

older thread(with recursive old threads linked): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/any-thermal-rugged-phone-recommendations-how-to-choose-it/msg4158307

* I own a CAT S62 (also S60) and used it several hours every day. The only real issue it has developed over the past 3+ years is that the action button seems to stop working for it's function (I set double press to toggle torch) about 12 hours after a reboot... really odd.
Another red flag is that there never has been promised Android updates. And finally the company behind all the CAT phones, Bullitt Group Ltd has stopped operating just a few months ago(https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7157713764983672832/). That is why you didn't see any new products during MWC this year.
Otherwise I had no issues using it as phone pretty much all day. The microphone can't handle really loud music when recording video - but that is a very niche application.

* The 160x120 Lepton is really limited by it's framerate and also it's software. No custom software works on this generation (works on S60).

* My S60 collects dust on my shelf. I have no extracted the Lepton to use it for monitoring my 3D printer - but that was an idea.

[5U4GB]

Another red flag is that there never has been promised Android updates.

Came here to say the same thing, Ulephone and Doogee at least are established second-tier manufacturers in China but like most of their equivalents you'll get at most one firmware update ever, fairly early on to fix the most glaring bugs, and after that it's unsupported.  So it may be a cheap way to get a nice portable thermal imager, but I wouldn't try and use it as a phone.

[Bud]

Get a separate thermal imager, do not get all in one phone and thermal in one package.

[Bicurico]

Thanks for the feedback - not much, but at least all pending into the same direction.

I gave up, for now.

The smartphone is the most important device I own, next is my main computer. Both provide me with my income and the phone will allow me to entertain my mind when I have nothing better to do.

I stopped buying premium phones (Samsung Galaxy Note), when I realized that they don't offer relevant functionality that is not present inmid-range phones (Redmi Note Pro) at a third of the cost. The advantage is that I am less paranoid with losing, dropping or breaking the phone and it allows me to get a new one every two years, which is still cheaper than a premium phone every 4-6 years.

The reasoning was to spend 150 Euro extra on my phone budget and get one with thermal imaging. I don't get a thermal camera or thermal camera module at this price and it would enhance the functionality of the phone greatly.

That sounds good, but reality is that I would have to buy an even less known brand (Ulefone instead of Xiaomi), would get zero support or updates and from what I read, t hese phones are prone to HW failure (buttons, WIFI, etc.).

Let's see what the future brings.

Cheers,
Vitor

[allsparks]

Hi,

I like the smart phone option, currently 1yr with the Doogee v20pro infiray sensor and I love it, I use the thermal camera all the time, the resolution is fine for most of our work all though generating reports is bit of a issue . I had a Blackview BV9900 pro with the FLIR sensor for the previous phone which did not have the same resolution of the V20 and only upgraded due to having mic issues with it.
I also use the Therm App th which has great thermal resolution but no image mixing and to be honest I have not used it since I bought into the android phones with thermal cameras.

[Vipitis]

rugged phone with embedded thermal camera will be much more durable than a dongle.

[JOE 2345]

I had infiray P2 pro, I think it's good for my daily use.

[isecus88]

If you're a professional technician or going to take serious missions, the handheld thermal camera is more recommended. Comparetively, it is always reliable and ready for action. Some models are dropping-proof, supporting like 2m. But cost will be higher. A camera with 256*192 ir resolution like UTi260B, price will be over USD300+

But if you want a thermal camera for everyday adventures and fun investigations, smartphone camera is better, more convenient to carry with you.
A camera at same resolution like UTi721M, price is lower than UTi260B. However, there is Android and Iphone version. If you change android phone to iphone later, the existed camera will be not convenient to use lol.


PS, if friends want to buy UTi260B, remark "EEVBlog", we will apply for a free Macro Lens for you.
https://www.isecuseshop.com/product/uti260b-thermal-camera-pcb-inspection-floor-heating-pipe-test/

[Demon Xanth]

We have a BV9800 Pro and a Cat S60 here. We got them when they were basically the most affordable way to get them. They do work well for our purposes, but these days lag on the resolution front.

[mobby_6kl]

I have a InfiRay P2 Pro as a usb-c module. I think this is the way to go unless you need to use it all the time as a professional, then a stand-alone handheld unit would be better.

A phone with a built-in thermal cam is very cool, but locks you a few weird phones with specific, limited cameras. Can't upgrade one without the other, or get the latest and greatest. My module works with the S22, or with a PC, or a tablet, etc.

If you need to always have it with you, but can't carry a module or handheld camera, it might be the best (only) option. Don't know if such a use case really exists though

[Bicurico]

Meanwhile I bought a regular Xiaomi Redmi Note 11Pro 5G.

I stopped buying iPhones a long time ago (I disliked the closed environment) and Samsung phones (my last Samsung Galaxy Note 8 developed the screen tearing, where dark scenes would not resolve properly, making it a pain to watch Netflix).

To me, the advantage of getting a smartphone with thermal imagining is that the price of thermal imaging is much lower this way: the phone I was considering, the Ulefone Armor 19T, could be bought at the time for 400 Euro, while a stand-alone plugin sensor alone would cost 300 Euro.

My reasoning is that once you change phone in 2-4 years, you can still use it as kind of a stand-alone thermal camera.

But having everything in one single device, sounds great to me, even if the camera is not the best in class.

Perhaps my next phone will be a rugged smartphone with thermal imaging. Not that I really need it, but I think it would be great to have.

[gamerpaddy]

I would avoid Blackview, had the 9800pro for a long time and they dropped the support long before every major bug was resolved in firmware, releasing just another model with the same specs and different name. their support is horrible.
also all of them seem to use the ancient flir lepton 2.5 or 3.0 modules. even the later ulefone armor models.
and never resolved bugs like when you opened the flir app and closed it, it wont shut off the lepton module. you would hear the shutter clicking every now and then and it drains the battery quickly...

a friend went with the ulefone armor 11T and had issues with gps after a while. also, just a 3.5 lepton with 160x120.


i tried the AGM G1S as it was on sale / refurbished as its new way too expensive for what it was. but despite the tiny1c 256x192 25hz core it wasnt great either, lots of issues, lots of inconveniences. sent it back after a week.

i then went with a IIIF150 Raptor which has the same tiny1c core the infiray p2 uses and the battery lasts me 2 weeks+
cant really complain about it, except the missing ability to set custom actions to the side button as its not defined as a button in android to be used with apps that can remap it, ive set mine to start the thermal and normal cam.
i havent encountered any major issues with it yet.  really solid device... and a chonker but im really happy with it. 

also i didnt have any issues with taking pictures outside against the sunlight which may be an issue with thermal camera phones as their shutters are open all the time ... and direct sunlight may harm the sensor.
certainly had that effect with the blackview where the flir had to catch itself a few calibration cycles until the streak went away.

id rather have a built in thermal cam than a dongle ( its not like i allready have a p2 pro..) because the most convenient piece you have, is the one you allways have with you.   a dongle can be forgotten or lost.

[Binjo]

I've had a Doogee V20 Pro since October. I paid £380 here in the UK from Amazon. I can't rate it highly enough. It's very rugged with a premium quality feel - it's mostly metal (even the buttons). Judging by the hex screws, it looks like it might even be serviceable (I haven't tried taking it apart though). It's a great phone for everyday use (if maybe a little heavy), with a nice amoled screen and good built-in speaker, capacious battery and it's waterproof to 1.5m. Also 256GB SSD and 12GB RAM!

The thermal camera is excellent, 320x240 resolution, and incredibly sensitive (fun looking at footprints, your own ghostly reflection in the wall, glowing overhead power lines etc). I suppose it has the usual FLIR type features and settings but I don't have anything to compare it with. My only small gripe is that the spot temperatures are a couple of degrees off and there seems to be no way to calibrate it. Temperature range is -10°C to 550°C.

It comes with a functional and well-fitted plastic and rubber protector,  replete with a metal "tilting bail" -- as some might say -- for watching films.

Things I don't like: (1) After the 1st firmware update, it kept notifying in Chrome of a website called "vfsearch dot com", this looked like a Google news site but all searches took you to a casino (lol). It was easy enough to ignore, so more of an irritant really, and the 2nd update has thankfully eliminated it. (2) Sometimes the screen colours can look a little over-saturated, and there's no way to adjust it.

I won't make this post into a full review, but I'll summarise by saying that overall it's a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

[gamerpaddy]

Doogee? More like Doodgee


you say 320x240?
they even claim "1440x1080 of thermal resolution" (obviously "enhanced" and upscaled to death not native.)
im not aware of 320x240 sensors from infiray, its more like a seek and flir thing.
closest i find is 386x288 but not in phones yet.

the upscaled resolution perfectly divides into 160x120 which seems more realistic.

V20 Pro review.. look at those thermal samples at 12:15




cant tell without a side by side comparison if its a 256x192 or just 160x120,
the app recording function never really looked good, laggy, way too compressed.

the usual tiny1c 256x192 looks like this:
On a IIIF150 using the app:


on PC using ircam viewer:

[Binjo]

My bad. It's 256x192. The "1440 x 1080" sometimes claimed by Doogee is obviously deceptive hype, probably relating to the composite image or, as you say,  an upscaled resolution.

[Nilou]

Super interesting reading the different posts.
After years of using a CAT S61 and its FLIR, I am really curious to know if there is another smartphone with a good built-in thermal camera available on the market.
Ulefone results are terrible from my experience, need to find an alternative.

[Binjo]

Here's an example image:

[Binjo]

Here's a raw image:

[gamerpaddy]

just noticed, its the infiray app that upscales those images. its not a doogee exclusive thing.
all my captures are sized 1080x1440 aswell, even the videos and quite big for being so blurry. 
that upscaling might be the reason why video is so laggy. i would have prefered recording/pics at native resolution.


unfourtainly 384x288 sensors are still too expensive for integrating it into a phone that becomes obsolete in 2..4 years, a usb dongle is much more flexible.
Seek dropped their prices for their 320x240 sensors, but i dont think this will happen anytime soon..

[Bicurico]

Nice to see some contributions to this thread!

I haven't purchased a smartphone with thermal imaging, yet. I was contemplating getting one as a Christmas present, but I am not convinced so far.

I liked the Ulefone Armour 18T, but it had a bug preventing any FW upgrade. The 18T Ultra is far too expensive. The 19T is eventually a compromise, but it does lack 5G and is expensive. I considered these models because somehow I liked the look of them.

The Doogee is not my favorite. I cannot explain it, but I don't like the looks of it and I read completely opposite reviews: some say it is a great phone, other's say it is rubbish, developing all sorts of faults.

Then there is the new Ulefone Armour 27T, which has IR camera, too. But the thermal resolution is a step backwards.

Conclusion: I have yet to see a model that really lights my heart with acceptable smartphone functionality (high power battery, high resolution screen, reasonably fast CPU, functionaly GPS, etc.), a good camera (afterall, the smartphone has replaced the regular point and shoot camera) and a reasonable thermal camera (any resolution above 160x100 pixels and a precision of +/-3 degrees - hopefully better around the 37 degrees mark).

[Nilou]

Please share with us the model that lights your heart when its out.

The Armor27T Pro thermal resolution is a huge disappointment & by its size and weight, it feels like having a phone from the 80s.
Also, as Binjo mentioned the Doogee V20 Pro, I could see some obvious similarity with the Armor27TPro. They look pretty similar, they have a specific shape that makes me wonder, are the constructors and models relatives ?

Sticking to your conclusion too, and sticking to my old CAT S61 for the moment.

[Vipitis]

The company behind Cat phones, Bullitt LTD did default and layed off all their people. So there won't be any more generations. I preferred the software in and third party options in the S60 over my current S62 And I am not sure where to go next.

[Nilou]

We share exactly the same situation, not knowing where to go next.
The thermal camera is a must for me, but the Ulefone 27T's definition was terrible + it felt like having a brick in my pocket ( +400 grams ! )

Sadly I heard about the Bullitt announcement, but I wonder, who was manufacturing their phone ?
In my opinion, they just bought a licence to use the "CAT" brand, did some nice marketing, and went to China to find an establish smartphone manufacturer to make it real. Or may be I am totally wrong