Prosecution of a Chinese Student for illegal FLIR export from Japan -2017

[Fraser]

This is an old news story from 2017 but demonstrates how much trouble you can get into if you export some thermal imaging technology without an appropriate licence. The FLIR SAFIRE III is a very capable airborne visible light and thermal imaging platform. I have worked on the ship borne SEAFLIR that is similar and I am not at all surprised that action was taken as these are military grade devices.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20171125/p2a/00m/0na/019000c

I have not looked into whether the prosecution had unpleasant consequences for the student.

Fraser

[Fraser]

More coverage of the story.......

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/21360/Chinese_Student_in_Japan_Ships_Classified_US_made_Night_Vision_Device_to_Hong_Kong#.YC1ldhDfWf0

Fraser

[rsjsouza]

Very interesting indeed. In the field I work (non-military), we are always scrutinized to meet export control regulations, even if it is a simple piece of information or datasheet.
 

[james_s]

Kind of seems like security theater to me. Surely if an actual threat (government/military) wanted to get their hands on an export controlled device like this, they would have the budget to execute a plan to do so. Inside job with a cargo airline, multiple people with fake identities simply mailing a device on the assumption that at least one would slip through, etc.

[Ultrapurple]

... the student purchased the device for 550,000 yen (about $4,900), and sold it to a firm in China for about 2.5 million yen ($22,400) ... A new one costs at least 50 million yen (about $448,000)

Yikes! I guess if the student had realised he'd bought a half-million dollar highly classified toy for 1% of its cost he could have held out for a bit more than $22,400 by selling it to China - like maybe a new identity...

It just goes to show you have to be very careful when selling some items outside of their country of origin. Whether the camera should ever have gone onto the open market is a moot point.

I have always thought that any Foreign Entity that really wanted to obtain (for example) thermal rifle sights would just have someone walk into a few sporting shops in the USA, pay cash, then spirit the items out of the country in a diplomatic bag.

[vk6zgo]

The USA goes a bit "over the top", as the decisions on these things are made by "Suits", not EEs or Techs.
Somebody got pulled up over exporting "Military equipment", which turned out to be a WW2 radio out of a B17.

[DaJMasta]

It's not just the USA, but we certainly have draconian heavily bureaucratic restrictions on exports of certain kinds of things.  Thermal cameras being one - you can't ship a 30Hz camera to the EU without special paperwork, but a 30Hz camera of identical spec made in the EU can't be exported to the US for the same reason.... maybe 20 or 30 years ago these cameras were high end military gear, but while they still have their uses, the technology is widespread and restrictions outside of specific countries seems sort of pointless.  Admittedly, the camera in question is quite a bit more elaborate and has a much more direct military application than a handheld inspection camera, but the point remains.

Reminds me that realtime spectrum analyzers have a similar restriction - over a certain threshold of instantaneous bandwidth is restricted because of its potential use in military applications.... even though those SAs have been commercially available internationally for a decade or more in expensive configurations and are almost in the sub $10,000 price bracket now.

Another I've run into is industrial accelerometers - 40 or 50 year old charge mode accelerometers are ITAR restricted, though I don't think laser vibrometers or integrated accelerometers (MEMS and whatnot) are... or if they are, they're still so otherwise widespread that it doesn't really matter in practice.

I don't expect the laws to be able to keep up with the pace of technology, but it seems like stuff developed out of or alongside their military application counterparts are unusually restricted and you do have to watch out for it.

[coppercone2]

thankfully most thermal problems we encounter have a high POI and usually a thermal photo camera would be enough or better then a video, magnifiers solve resolution problems quite well for SMD work.

When I tried to spy on a news helicopter with a seek thermal it was plenty agile enough to make it not useful it mounted to some kind of cannon I think

Other then the cool factor I did often wonder what high frame rate thermal cameras would be useful for in normal engineering. The one thing that came to mind is engine pistons or maybe turbines.

Unlike RF POI I was never too bothered by thermal camera refresh rate, other then the fact that people are not impressed by it (non technical showing off fail). I think more useful would be some kind of emissivity auto correction to allow you to get better measurements on PCB (they are made of so many materials its not funny)

I think what they don't want is ghetto anti-helicopter weapons hacked out of old soviet machine guns and stuff in the middle east. I noticed before things cooled down in ukraine the soldiers there were getting pretty creative mixing 'non military' industrial electronics and guns to make weapons systems that would be useless or detrimental (heavy, bulky, power hungry, easily located, vulnerabilities) if a 'peacekeeping media friendly no napalm and cluster bomb' mindset was lost by the other side (so a normal hot war that degenerates to conventional WW2+ brutality 2 weeks after starting).

[CJay]

Kind of seems like security theater to me. Surely if an actual threat (government/military) wanted to get their hands on an export controlled device like this, they would have the budget to execute a plan to do so. Inside job with a cargo airline, multiple people with fake identities simply mailing a device on the assumption that at least one would slip through, etc.

Absolutely, anyone who needs tech like that can likely get it quite easily.

Laws only stop people who aren't minded to break them.

[james_s]

I don't expect the laws to be able to keep up with the pace of technology, but it seems like stuff developed out of or alongside their military application counterparts are unusually restricted and you do have to watch out for it.

I think the problem is that laws generally don't expire once created, and it takes a substantial amount of effort to expunge old laws that no longer make sense. I think a lot would be improved by having most laws automatically expire after a time if they are not actively renewed, then we wouldn't have so many outdated laws that no longer accomplish anything useful.

[frogg]

National policy notwithstanding, that was a pretty good Ebay score!

[Ultrapurple]

I think the problem is that laws generally don't expire once created, and it takes a substantial amount of effort to expunge old laws that no longer make sense. I think a lot would be improved by having most laws automatically expire after a time if they are not actively renewed, then we wouldn't have so many outdated laws that no longer accomplish anything useful.

Some radio panel shows on British radio rely heavily on obsolete American laws for their comedy value - things like "It is illegal for a squirrel to break wind after 11pm in northern Minnesota".

(If any squirrels are reading this, rest assured I made that one up - but there are plenty of genuine examples forbidding wildlife to do certain things in some areas. But as far as I know there are no restrictions on what bears may do in the woods).

[vk6zgo]

I think the problem is that laws generally don't expire once created, and it takes a substantial amount of effort to expunge old laws that no longer make sense. I think a lot would be improved by having most laws automatically expire after a time if they are not actively renewed, then we wouldn't have so many outdated laws that no longer accomplish anything useful.

Some radio panel shows on British radio rely heavily on obsolete American laws for their comedy value - things like "It is illegal for a squirrel to break wind after 11pm in northern Minnesota".

(If any squirrels are reading this, rest assured I made that one up - but there are plenty of genuine examples forbidding wildlife to do certain things in some areas. But as far as I know there are no restrictions on what bears may do in the woods).

What do bears do first thing in the morning?

Any bloody thing they want!

[james_s]

Some radio panel shows on British radio rely heavily on obsolete American laws for their comedy value - things like "It is illegal for a squirrel to break wind after 11pm in northern Minnesota".

(If any squirrels are reading this, rest assured I made that one up - but there are plenty of genuine examples forbidding wildlife to do certain things in some areas. But as far as I know there are no restrictions on what bears may do in the woods).

I had a book of silly laws when I was a kid. In particular I remember that in some state if two trains meet at a crossing neither can go until the other has gone. I have no idea if that law is still on the books or what state it was in but clearly someone did not really think that one through.

[TimFox]

I don't expect the laws to be able to keep up with the pace of technology, but it seems like stuff developed out of or alongside their military application counterparts are unusually restricted and you do have to watch out for it.

I think the problem is that laws generally don't expire once created, and it takes a substantial amount of effort to expunge old laws that no longer make sense. I think a lot would be improved by having most laws automatically expire after a time if they are not actively renewed, then we wouldn't have so many outdated laws that no longer accomplish anything useful.

This is called a “sunset” provision when legislators bother to include it in new laws.  There is a fixed period, with provision for active renewal in the future.

[Stray Electron]

This is called a “sunset” provision when legislators bother to include it in new laws.  There is a fixed period, with provision for active renewal in the future.

  I think that every law should have a sunset provision. If they prove worthy then the politicians can renew them otherwise they should expire.

   FWIW the US "assault weapons ban" passed in 1993 and included a sunset provision and it was not renewed.

   And no, don't use this as justification to start discussing the pros and cons of gun bans!

[Ultrapurple]

  I think that every law should have a sunset provision. If they prove worthy then the politicians can renew them otherwise they should expire.

Interesting suggestion, but I suspect there are a small number of laws that any moderately civilised society would agree as fundamental requirements of society such as murder, cannibalism, Morris Dancing - that sort of thing. You're right however that the Thermal Imaging forum isn't the place for such a debate.



(For the benefit of non-Brits, Morris dancing is a kind of traditional folk dance that is traditionally mock-despised, as evidenced by the saying "Try everything in life once, except incest and Morris Dancing" - a corruption of a quotation by Sir Thomas Beecham.)

[vk6zgo]

  I think that every law should have a sunset provision. If they prove worthy then the politicians can renew them otherwise they should expire.

Interesting suggestion, but I suspect there are a small number of laws that any moderately civilised society would agree as fundamental requirements of society such as murder, cannibalism, Morris Dancing - that sort of thing. You're right however that the Thermal Imaging forum isn't the place for such a debate.



(For the benefit of non-Brits, Morris dancing is a kind of traditional folk dance that is traditionally mock-despised, as evidenced by the saying "Try everything in life once, except incest and Morris Dancing" - a corruption of a quotation by Sir Thomas Beecham.)

Q: Why do Morris dancers wear bells?

A: So they can piss off blind people, too!