Higher frame rate for Lepton?

[Ben321]

I noticed that the Lepton core has its own spec for frame rate of <9Hz. This isn't programmed into the microcontroller in the FLIR One. So I'm wondering is there a way to flash the firmware in the Lepton core itself, to enable a higher frame rate?

[Fraser]

Simple answer...... no.

Remember this core is carefully designed to meet Dual Use technology rules. Where do you expect to find the LEPTON core source code ?  without such, any reconfiguration of the LEPTON firmware would be a significant challenge. Also be aware that the LEPTON core contains non re-programmable PROM configuration memory.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Lepton 3 Block Diagram in case you have not seen it

Fraser

[Ben321]

Simple answer...... no.

Remember this core is carefully designed to meet Dual Use technology rules. Where do you expect to find the LEPTON core source code ?  without such, any reconfiguration of the LEPTON firmware would be a significant challenge. Also be aware that the LEPTON core contains non reprogrammal PROM configuration memory.

Fraser

Dual Use ITAR rules are only for selling overseas (and I think also there's something about not being an American citizen even if you are living in the US). There's no law though that says that Americans currently living in the US are not allowed to buy the full framerate thermal cameras or camera cores.

As for the PROM chip, is it uses proprietary (made in-house by FLIR)? If not, you could just desolder it, dump the data stored in the PROM chip to a computer with hardware designed for dumping PROM (this will let you reverse engineer the data stored in the PROM), buy a new PROM chip of the same type, and use a PROM programmer device to write modified data to the chip. Then just solder that newly programmed PROM chip back onto the Lepton's circuit board.

[mikeselectricstuff]

High framerate leptons do exist - it's obviously a firmware thing. The block diagram states the FW is in OTP memory so probably not readily updateable, even if you could figure out how.

When I was playing I did find they could be overclocked to some extent

[Ben321]

High framerate leptons do exist

Where do you get them? They aren't in FLIR One units. They aren't being sold on electronic component distributor websites like DigiKey. And even FLIR's own websit, which has FLIR One specs, does not state anything about there being a high framerate Lepton variant. How did you find out about them, and where can one be purchased?

[mikeselectricstuff]

AIUI they are only available to US companies offering to buy in decent volumes. When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them emailed me.
However aside form that it is totally obvious that they must exist - Flir would not put that much investment into development without maximising the possible market. They make all their other camera cores in high framerate versions so it would be odd for this not to be the case for Lepton.
The interface is also clearly capable of more bandwidth.

[Ben321]

AIUI they are only available to US companies offering to buy in decent volumes. When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them emailed me.
However aside form that it is totally obvious that they must exist - Flir would not put that much investment into development without maximising the possible market. They make all their other camera cores in high framerate versions so it would be odd for this not to be the case for Lepton.
The interface is also clearly capable of more bandwidth.

How did you initially find out that they had high framerate versions? Do you have "insider" connections in the FLIR company?

[mikeselectricstuff]

How did you initially find out that they had high framerate versions? Do you have "insider" connections in the FLIR company?

Like I said,
 

When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them (The high framerate ones) emailed me and mentioned it.

[Fraser]

Ben321,

Dual Use Technology rules are not just ITAR. The Wassenaar Agreement is current and in force. I do not recall saying FLIR cannot produce a higher frame rate LEPTON 3, only that they released a limited frame rate camera to meet their market needs. Of course high frame rate cameras are available in the USA .... plus many other countries. I can easily purchase a 60fps E60 camera in the UK. The limited frame rate makes cameras easier to sell on a large scale in the consumer market.

Some reading for you.....

http://www.wassenaar.org/


Have you actually looked at the FLIR ONE G2 physical design ? Your comments suggest not.

Have you reverse engineered a closed design firmware with no source code or 'inside' help ? Your comments suggest not.

Can FLIR configure a higher frame rate LEPTON 3 ? Yes they can. It is not difficult for them to do. It is all controlled in firmware.
FLIR have a clear marketing strategy and it is unlikely that they will wish to release a high frame rate budget camera core that has the potential to impact upon their higher frame rate platforms.

Fraser

[mikeselectricstuff]

FLIR have a clear marketing strategy and it is unlikely that they will wish to release a high frame rate budget camera core that has the potential to impact upon their higher frame rate platforms.

But on the other hand, for applications where size and weight is everything, like UAVs, Lepton potentially offers unique opportunities.

[Fraser]

Indeed Mike, and I would not be at all surprised if the wee Lepton Core is not already in use in some very unusual and specialist applications  The LEPTON platform has great potential. Better lenses would likely improve imaging performance and I have already been advised that the focusing of the lens at the factory can be a hit and miss affair. A little fine tuning of the LEPTON's lens can bring worthwhile improvement to the image that it produces. It will always be a somewhat compromised lens solution however. Silicon diffraction lenses are not wonderful performers.

Fraser

[cdev]

Is anybody else bothered by subjects like this here?

Just let it go..

[Fraser]

CDEV,

I have to agree.

I have a mix of high and low frame rate cameras and I find the lower frame rate cameras fine for most applications. The use in Drones or other fast moving mobile platforms does highlight the limitations of slower frame rate cameras, but in general ~9fps is pretty good in everyday use.

Fraser

[Ben321]

Is anybody else bothered by subjects like this here?

Just let it go..

How is it bad to talk about modifying your equipment to get the most out of it?

[Fraser]

Normally it is'nt..... but.......

You are raising a topic that has been discussed before and at length on this forum. The <9fps limitation placed on thermal cameras enables them to be shipped internationally without much/any red tape. The ITAR and Dual Use Technology rules are there for a reason. Asking how the <9fps limit may be removed from a thermal camera on a public international forum is asking for trouble, even if you live within the USA and are a USA citizen !

The upgrade to the FLIR E4 deliberately stopped short of frame rate improvement for the above reason. The frame rate limit is one area where upgrades stop being harmless fun by the hobbyists fraternity and drifts into the circumvention of government and international agreements. That is not a good topic for a public forum if the intention is to publicise 'hacks' or 'cracks' that breach government level DUT regulations.

Fraser

[mikeselectricstuff]

Normally it is'nt..... but.......

You are raising a topic that has been discussed before and at length on this forum. The <9fps limitation placed on thermal cameras enables them to be shipped internationally without much/any red tape. The ITAR and Dual Use Technology rules are there for a reason. Asking how the <9fps limit may be removed from a thermal camera on a public international forum is asking for trouble, even if you live within the USA and are a USA citizen !

The upgrade to the FLIR E4 deliberately stopped short of frame rate improvement for the above reason. The frame rate limit is one are where upgrades stop being harmless fun by the hobbyists fraternity and drifts into the circumvention of government and international agreements. That is not a good topic for a public forum if the intention is to publicise 'hacks' or 'cracks' that breach government level DUT regulations.

Fraser

Though it could be argued that this comes under the same category as researching and disclosing security vulnerabilities.
If a <9fps cam can be hacked, it exposes failings by the manufacturer to take sufficient steps to ensure compliance with the regulations they're being shipped under.

[cdev]

I think the entire arms sales business is a criminal enterprise of global scale. But its real, and a cogent argument can be made that anything that can reduce the availability of certain kinds of weapons to potential terrorists or even state actors like North Korea known to use these technologies in ways which can end up killing people, is a legitimate concern.

There are arguments which could be made against those restrictions once they become meaningless based on the availability of workarounds.

Surely we don't want to have an even more endemic problem with drones used in targeted assassinations than we have today with countries doing it.

Because that's what might happen.

--------

Things like this will lead, I think to a global standing down after some huge cataclysm. (if we survive it.)

We could prevent all of that by simply exercising common sense NOW.

[Bud]

Cdev, are you sure you got your facts right as to which country is killing people all over the world and which one is not?

[cdev]

I'm not going to engage in an argument that any remote automated killing by anybody is legitimate. The harder it is to do the better.

[OrBy]

30Hz units were spoken of here before - I believe tplogic.com offers thermal imaging sights based off the lepton in both 9Hz and 30Hz versions. Take a look at their T12 and T12-C lines. I would assume that if you lived in the right place and did the right paperwork you could purchase one and could harvest the module for your own uses.

[nidlaX]

30Hz units were spoken of here before - I believe tplogic.com offers thermal imaging sights based off the lepton in both 9Hz and 30Hz versions. Take a look at their T12 and T12-C lines. I would assume that if you lived in the right place and did the right paperwork you could purchase one and could harvest the module for your own uses.

Oh, I just assumed the Torrey Pines units were 9Hz. 30Hz versions make a lot more sense.

[Ben321]

Theoretically, if the company is following the ITAR law, the low-framerate version will be hardcoded for 9hz in a way that can't be changed by the end user. For example, it could be etched into silicon, so that it can't be reprogrammed. If it can be changed by the end user, then it is the thermal imager manufacturer (not people who discuss it online) that has broken the law. The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself (at least not in the US, because of freedom of speech). The only exception to this is people who work in government or military, who are legally obligated to keep certain information (classified info) out of the hands of the public. If there is a way to modify the lepton, I don't believe it's been been marked classified.

Even if it can be modified, because the manufacturer didn't put in place the correct safeguards, all that means is that the manufacturer broke the law. If I then modify it, I'm not breaking the law, because I'm a US citizen living in the US. However, after such a modification, it becomes my legal obligation to NOT export it to anybody outside the US (and also may be illegal to sell it to anybody in the US who's not a US citizen). There is no legal obligation however, at all, for me to avoid discussing the topic on the internet. If, for example, I had knowledge (which I don't actually) of how to modify it to get full 30Hz frame rate, there is no law that forbids me from posting such information on the internet. Such a law would be a violation of my first amendment right to free speech. The only crime would be if I posted it with the intent to help enemies of the US, which would be an act of treason. Spreading info to cause harm is illegal, while spreading info for the sake of simply educating others on a topic is not illegal. Intent is the key.

[hendorog]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

[hendorog]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

Their angles are gonna be slightly different, and hence there will be quite some imaging error.
While it can be digitally corrected, the images will not look very nice due to the pixel numbers are low.
Perspective correction will stretch and compress some pixels, so effectively it's a resampling algorithm. To get high quality output, input pixel should be higher than non corrected image for the same output quality.

True - but with 'enough' distance to subject the error would become negligible?

And even if you can get that done properly, how do you guarantee shutter speed? You need the shutter speed to be faster than 27fps to prevent blurring, otherwise you won't get true 27fps.

Good point. The extra frame rate could still be used to increase the resolution I guess.