Author Topic: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s  (Read 103025 times)

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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2014, 12:14:11 pm »
My only negative on the Lepton is its 80x60 resolution. Whilst adequate, it could be so much more useful with a 160x120 resolution. FLIR may have plans for such an enhanced LEPTON, but the price is likely to be suitably increased to match the additional resolution. Now if tehy could slle such at teh same price as a LEPTON 80x60 core.... that would make things interesting.
I think they are hoping that MSX will make up for the lack of resolution, which it does in some applications but maybe less so in others. ISTR reading about Flir announcing a Lepton based camera aimed at the security market a while ago but not seen anything recently.
I'd think that for this they'd probably want a narrower FOV than the standard Lepton lens

An interesting snippet I got from a chat with someone at Flir a while ago is that there is a lower limit on how dense you can get a microbolometer die because of the wavelength it's trying to detect, and that was a major reason for choosing 80x60 for the Lepton.
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Offline imau

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2014, 01:33:06 pm »
And Seek Thermal Lauches 9AM ET today..
things are heating up in the thermal imaging market...

Very interesting gadget.

Specs:

rue thermal sensor
206 x 156 Array
32,136 Thermal Pixels
12 µ Pixel Pitch
Vanadium Oxide Micro Bolometer
Chalcogenide Lens
36º Field of View
Magnesium Housing
Long Wave Infrared 7.2 – 13 Microns
-40C to 330C Detection
< 9Hz


Price: 199,00 dollars.

Ships only to USA & Canada at the moment....   :-(
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2014, 01:36:18 pm »
There is a thread for the Seek Thermal here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg498715/#msg498715

Meanwhile,  Sounds of "oh crap" are being heard from Flir HQ
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Offline firewalker

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2014, 02:30:14 pm »
Meanwhile,  Sounds of "oh crap" are being heard from Flir HQ

Why?

Alexander.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2014, 02:54:49 pm »
Meanwhile,  Sounds of "oh crap" are being heard from Flir HQ

Why?

Alexander.
Flir one : $350, 80x60 Iphone 5 only, max temp 100 deg.C
Seek : $199 , 206x156,  Most Iphones and most Android, 330Deg.C
Flir has MSX and nicer integration, but is that worth $150 extra?

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Offline firewalker

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #155 on: September 25, 2014, 03:00:28 pm »
Can Flir afford a price drop just before the release of Seek? Does the Seek one utilize a microbolometer also?

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Offline imau

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #156 on: September 25, 2014, 03:27:21 pm »
Meanwhile,  Sounds of "oh crap" are being heard from Flir HQ

Why?

Alexander.
Flir one : $350, 80x60 Iphone 5 only, max temp 100 deg.C
Seek : $199 , 206x156,  Most Iphones and most Android, 330Deg.C
Flir has MSX and nicer integration, but is that worth $150 extra?

MSX could be implemented via App using the built-in camera. It should be an easy task.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 03:30:55 pm by imau »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #157 on: September 25, 2014, 03:33:14 pm »
Meanwhile,  Sounds of "oh crap" are being heard from Flir HQ

Why?

Alexander.
Flir one : $350, 80x60 Iphone 5 only, max temp 100 deg.C
Seek : $199 , 206x156,  Most Iphones and most Android, 330Deg.C
Flir has MSX and nicer integration, but is that worth $150 extra?

MSX could be implemented via App. It should be an easy task.
Might be tricky getting the timing between the 2 images.
And Flir's patent on MSX may be an issue
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Offline Fraser

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #158 on: September 25, 2014, 04:25:06 pm »
Also it needs to be remembered that MSX is visible light based and in some applications thermal cameras are being used where there is little or no natural Light. Some of my thermal cameras that have a visible light camera also include a video light option so the OEM has recognised the limitation. I do like MSX and it performs well in decent ambient light conditions but I would go for higher thermal resolution if given the option.

IMHO <$200 for the 'Seek' is an amazing deal.

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Offline eneuro

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2014, 07:00:31 am »
Just trying to figure out what this magic MSX term in thermal vision means, while I'd like to try implement it in software using OpenCV with other thermal camera?
Found this so far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX but it is not related to thermal anyway   ???
Update: I've found something about MSX here and it looks like another patent similar to other ones which smells like reinwenting a wheel in XXI century while image processing tools are available more than ten years to get similar results using hardware accelerated OpenCV which supports as I know Nvidia CUDA in latest releases, however don't tested it while do not needed so much power in typical apps OpenCV :-DD
http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.html
Quote
"MSX technology automatically extracts the critical details from the visible image and embosses them on to the thermal image"
"MSX is better than video blending – video blending dilutes the thermal image where MSX augments the thermal image with just the critical visible details"
OpenCV is also very good to augment videos frame by frame and using quite powerfull computer it can be done in real time with fuzzy logic & trained artifical neural networks if needed  8)
So, it is fine forget about Flir and their patents and just connect thermal camera using USB to Android or Linux box if possible and let OpenCV do what MSX does and more  >:D

You can say that about the phone too.  No one is making you upgrade.
No one have to do it, while I have Linux installed on a few HTC smarter phones now  :-DD

« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 07:37:39 am by eneuro »
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2014, 08:01:06 am »
What MSX does is extract edges from the visible overlays these on the thermal.  I'm sure with OpenCV you could probably do better than MSX - one thing lacking, which I'm sure would be doable, is automatic depth measurement & correction by correlating edges in the two images. 
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Offline Rasz

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2014, 06:59:54 pm »
What MSX does is extract edges from the visible overlays these on the thermal.  I'm sure with OpenCV you could probably do better than MSX - one thing lacking, which I'm sure would be doable, is automatic depth measurement & correction by correlating edges in the two images.

there are no (real visual) edges in thermal image, you can have completely flat surface with temp differences
Im thinking a rangefinder, even primitive one made with two laser dots + visual camera, or using visual camera with AF and extracting af point from it?

btw opencv is the worst thing you could do for actual implementation. Its an environment for experimentation, research and testing (like gnuradio), but it should be called open_let me copy that buffer one more time baby_CV :) Easier/ faster and simpler to just write Sobel directly in language/hdl of your choice.
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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2014, 08:10:22 pm »
What MSX does is extract edges from the visible overlays these on the thermal.  I'm sure with OpenCV you could probably do better than MSX - one thing lacking, which I'm sure would be doable, is automatic depth measurement & correction by correlating edges in the two images.

there are no (real visual) edges in thermal image, you can have completely flat surface with temp differences
Im thinking a rangefinder, even primitive one made with two laser dots + visual camera, or using visual camera with AF and extracting af point from it?

A lot of the time there will be some features in the thermal image that correspond to the visual one. You know that the only offset will be horizontal (until lens geometry starts to kick in) , and within a certain range, so it should be possible to make a good guess at which offset works best. 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2014, 08:18:59 pm »
For a simple, but quite accurate range finder you can do worse than the good old fashioned ultrasonic type that is now used on cars and was very effective on Polaroid cameras. Simple units have a range of around 10m IIRC.
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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2014, 08:43:59 pm »
If you were building a new device (as opposed to making do with the iphone cam), having a visible cam either side of the thermal, and correlating the images between those would probably be a reasonable way to get distance info.
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Offline Rasz

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2014, 09:01:06 pm »
A lot of the time there will be some features in the thermal image that correspond to the visual one. You know that the only offset will be horizontal (until lens geometry starts to kick in) , and within a certain range, so it should be possible to make a good guess at which offset works best.

at this point we enter realm of adaptive speculative learning algorithms, they usually also work "a lot of the time" instead of 'almost always'

basically try to do it yourself - line up two pictures of an item you never ever saw, have no idea how it works    hmmm, there might be problem there .... damn, lets try again

basically get a noob human (bonus points for Humanities education, or no education at all), give him two images and ask to line them up - can he do it reliably?

there wont be enough information for machine to do it either, maaaybe if you grab a clip while moving around the object, but at this point we are talking reconstructing 3d

oh yeah, totally forgot about ultrasonic, cheap and simple, good point
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:05:12 pm by Rasz »
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Offline Precipice

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2014, 09:23:23 pm »
OK, this thermal imaging stuff is all great.
This year, the late adopters will be using it for what the early adopters have been doing for years - equipment and heating inspections, spotting people and wildlife, looking at footprints fading, pouring coffee, watching yourself pee.

So: Thermal cameras are now cheap. Gesture recognition becomes easy. Occupancy sensors become easy. What's now possible? What have you wanted to do for ages, but has suddenly gone from a £2000 price tag to £20? £200 to £2?
Something in the cooker hood to both allow gestures to flick pages on a recipe book projected on the wall, and watch the pan contents temperature?
Something in the room thermostat, to watch skin temperature rather than thermostat temperature?

Bah, I dunno. This is a wonderful toy, at a new price. Let's avoid some gits getting patents on stuff that could be fun. What should be built?
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2014, 09:50:28 pm »
OK, this thermal imaging stuff is all great.
This year, the late adopters will be using it for what the early adopters have been doing for years - equipment and heating inspections, spotting people and wildlife, looking at footprints fading, pouring coffee, watching yourself pee.

So: Thermal cameras are now cheap. Gesture recognition becomes easy. Occupancy sensors become easy. What's now possible? What have you wanted to do for ages, but has suddenly gone from a £2000 price tag to £20? £200 to £2?
Something in the cooker hood to both allow gestures to flick pages on a recipe book projected on the wall, and watch the pan contents temperature?
Something in the room thermostat, to watch skin temperature rather than thermostat temperature?

Bah, I dunno. This is a wonderful toy, at a new price. Let's avoid some gits getting patents on stuff that could be fun. What should be built?
I do kinda wonder if the mass market the manufacturers are hoping for is really there.
It's still (and likely to be forever) too expensive to come down to 'toy' prices, or even low enough to be built into a phone (though I have no doubt someone will, just for the publicity).
It will obviously go into the lower end of markets already using them - electrical/electronics/HVAC. I have little doubt that someone will make an industrial  multimeter with a built-in thermal imager.
There will be some niche applications in occupancy sensing and maybe some safety applications and industrial condition monitoring.
And probably CCTV/security, though resolution is probably not good enough to do more than use as an initial detection system to target lighting & higher res visible cameras.
 For gesture recognition, the ITAR framerate limit is a major obstacle - 9fps is just too slow. However Flir may be in a good position with the Lepton, as assuming it as some reasonable amount of built-in processing power, some of the recognition process can be done on-module at a high framerate, so they could potentially produce something that couldn't output an image, and so would be outside ITAR scope.

There's little doubt that phone thermal imagers will be one of this year's hot (!) Christmas toys, but I suspect the novelty will soon wear out, leaving a bunch of niches of various sizes and market values.
 
I also think that the Flir One was primarily meant to be a technology demonstrator, and their main eye is on niche markets rather then the consumer.

Even ignoring the spec differences, Seek Thermal is the obviously better way to do a phone add-on. For most people it will be an occasional-use tool, so reducing the hardware electronics and size, hence cost to absolute minimum makes far more sense than having an external battery and powerful processor etc. in the camera.
The Lepton module, with its internal processing is clearly aimed at applications where you don't have the sort of powerful processor that's available in a phone.
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Offline Precipice

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2014, 09:55:14 pm »
There's little doubt that phone thermal imagers will be one of this year's hot (!) Christmas toys, but I suspect the novelty will soon wear out, leaving a bunch of niches of various sizes and market values.

That reminds me - toys!
When teddy can watch and imitate gestures, or tickle-me-Cthulhu can see you coming, all sorts of fun interactivity should be on the cards.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2014, 10:02:24 pm »
Just found this  Flir TG165 Lepton based imager
http://www.cityelectricweb.com/2014/09/flir-tg165-imaging-ir-thermometer/

Can't immediately find a price but ISTR seeing $499 somewhere the other day in reference to a Lepton based standalone imager. Much wider temp range that F1
No MSX, but has to be the last nail in the coffin fro Fluke's pathetic offerings
 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #170 on: September 26, 2014, 11:58:11 pm »
Its interesting that FLIR call it a thermometer and not a TIC. It even has Removable Flash memory.
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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2014, 09:14:32 am »
Its interesting that FLIR call it a thermometer and not a TIC. It even has Removable Flash memory.
I suspect that's so it gets into catalogues alongside Fluke's toy ones.
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Offline ScubaShan

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #172 on: September 29, 2014, 02:29:55 pm »
I note the temperature range of the TG165 is -25 to 380°C , yet the spec sheet says its using the lepton core. Are there multiple versions of lepton or will could it be possible to hack the flir one to work over a wider temperature range than 0-100°C?

 

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #173 on: September 29, 2014, 03:01:10 pm »
I note the temperature range of the TG165 is -25 to 380°C , yet the spec sheet says its using the lepton core. Are there multiple versions of lepton [/1uote]
probably, though the TG165 uses a seperate (presumably thermopile) sensor for measurement
Quote
will could it be possible to hack the flir one to work over a wider temperature range than 0-100°C?
I've not measured exactly but the Lepton output does saturate at a fairly low temp. It's possible there may be an I2C command to set the range, or it could be baked into the Lepton firmware. I suspect the Lepton in the F1 is different to the one offered as an OEM product.
 
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Offline tomas123

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Re: FLIR ONE PERSONAL THERMAL IMAGING DEVICE FOR YOUR iPHONE5 & 5s
« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2014, 04:29:48 pm »
FLIR TG165 in Germany:  589,95 EUR with tax ( messgeraete-chemnitz.de )


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