FLIR - Interesting dual FOV thermal camera on eBay. Save me from myself !

[Fraser]

There is an interesting FLIR thermal imaging camera on ebay at the moment in an auction that has 6 days to run.

The seller has already sold three others and says this is the last unit.

So why is it interesting ?

1. It is a thermal imaging camera module designed to be integrated into a larger housing such as found in surveillance and military applications. As such it is beautifully made.

2. It appears to be an uncooled microbolometer design and I suspect it shares its microbolometer type with those of the venerable PM series that I love so much.

3. The front lens is slightly pitted from weathering but nothing too serious.

4. Now the killer feature .... this camera appears to be DUAL FIELD OF VIEW ! That is to say, it has a set of lenses that provide a 20 Degree FOV and a second set of lenses that rotate into position between the first set to provide an optical Zoom function. In this case I believe the Zoom is X4 to provide a 5 Degree FOV. Such a capability on a thermal camera is expensive so relatively rare in units found on the secondary market. The camera also likely has electronic zoom to further enhance its zoom capabilities.

5. The camera appears to be very modular with the optical zoom section demountable from the microbolometer/electronics section

6. The camera is likely, but not confirmed, to be a QVGA unit as such was common at the time of its likely build.

7. This would have been a very expensive and capable thermal imaging surveillance camera 


So am I sure about all of the above..... in a word..... nope. I am working purely from my previous knowledge of similar cameras from FLIR and what I can see in the auction pictures of the camera and previous units sold by the seller. One example was damaged and missing its front and zoom lens elements so i could see the internal lens design 

Is the camera complete and easy to get running ? Sorry, no idea as I am not the seller and have nothing to do with the auction. The camera is sold as untested so Caveat Emptor. There is always the risk that the camera was 'decommissioned' before disposal or parts robbed from it. Even if complete, I do not have any information on the camera or its I/O connector so do not expect me to be able to help get it going. The Zoom lens content is worth what these cameras have been selling for though !

So why am I posting about this camera instead of buying it ? Well in the past I would likely have remained quiet about such a nice camera and added it to my collection. Times have changed and I am sworn off of spending more money on my thermal camera collection. In fact, quite the opposite, I will be selling some of my thermal cameras and downsizing my collection as you can only use so many thermal cameras and I have a lot of money invested in them ! I will not bid on this camera but hope someone on this forum does buy it as I would love to know more about it.

I will attach the pictures of the camera from the auction plus those of the cameras the seller has already sold. Most interesting is the damaged camera with no front lens. If you study the interior you will see the lens holder frame that rotates 90 degrees into the optical path when the Zoom mode is selected. It appears to be moved into position using a quadrant gear at the top of the housing. The camera module may be seen at the rear of the lens housing. It would appear that the damaged unit was robbed of its lenses so any potential buyer of the camera currently on offer may wish to ask the seller to check that the lens assembly is complete.

Would it be easy to return this camera to service ? Sorry no idea. You are on your own there. one of these cameras previously sold for under £170 so, if complete, they are a bargain in my opinion.

Remember, buying kit like this is a calculated risk. I used to do it for fun and was rarely unhappy with what I bought 

The Auction:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLIR-Thermal-Digital-Camera/124576469717?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D629c355e214948c0b852323cc609abe7%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D124565198280%26itm%3D124576469717%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DFlir&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af47b8802-712f-11eb-ae91-52c8affb1681%7Cparentrq%3Ab07bb9471770ad4ef71747f9ffd4b6fa%7Ciid%3A1

As already stated, I have no connection with this seller, the auction or this item.

Fraser

[Fraser]

The damaged camera that sold for £40. It likely still had a functioning camera core in it but no lenses. Bargain !

[Fraser]

Previously sold camera 1

[Fraser]

Previously sold camera 2....

[Vipitis]

if you are saying this is likely a QVGA core; the image circle can't be that great in the end. As I have been keeping my eye on ebay every few days looking for anything thermal camera (just on ebay.de) as well as vintage c mount lenses for other stuff - I haven't come across another fantastic bargain yet. Given that this is still days out and has shipping costs attached to it; I see it more as getting a lens out of this. I need image circles of 21mm and more, which usually means older cameras.

[Bill W]

QVGA maybe, but at what pixel pitch ?
50µm is getting close with a 20mm diagonal.

Depends how good you need the illumination / distortion in the corners

[Fraser]

I have confirmed that the camera came out of a military system so will use very high specification parts if my previous experience of Military FLIR products is anything to go by. The unit was mounted along side a CCTV visible light camera and was a surveillance system. The seller has also been selling the CCTV camera assemblies in his auctions.

I believe the microbolometer will be a 320 x 240 pixel array dating back to the late 1990’s and will employ 50um pixels. I say this only because similar FLIR units that I have worked on used this microbolometer, as found on the FLIR PM570. I could easily be wrong though.

Fraser

[Fraser]

I have been talking to the seller. He is a really nice chap but information on the camera is limited. I cannot establish a build date so cannot be more certain on the electronics package used within the camera. In days gone by I would  have just bought the unit ‘blind’ and reverse engineered the interface to determine whether it could be returned to operation. Sadly these days I am not so adventurous.

Fraser

[Fraser]

This UC624 imaging core from FLIR in 2004 looks similar 

https://web.archive.org/web/20040204090312/http://www.flir.com/imaging/OEMModules/Products/ThermovisionUC624.aspx

Fraser

[Fraser]

Here we go... circa 2007.... the uc-520 is a match to the auction core 

https://web.archive.org/web/20070324003257/http://www.flir.com/imaging/OEMModules/Products/UC520.aspx

A surprise.... it contains an Indigo Photon Core !

Fraser

[Fraser]

The cores brochure is attached......

With a Photon core inside, it should be possible to get this core running without too much effort 

Fraser

[Fraser]

The UC520 is stated as being auto focus and requires just RS232 plus power to drive it. The connector presents composite video output. The Photon core GUI may be directly compatible with the UC520 ?

This is a great little camera, I wish I could buy it but it is not to be  I must remain strong and resist it !

Fraser

[svgurus]

if you are saying this is likely a QVGA core; the image circle can't be that great in the end. As I have been keeping my eye on ebay every few days looking for anything thermal camera (just on ebay.de) as well as vintage c mount lenses for other stuff - I haven't come across another fantastic bargain yet. Given that this is still days out and has shipping costs attached to it; I see it more as getting a lens out of this. I need image circles of 21mm and more, which usually means older cameras.

21mm is huuge, 17µm vga is less than 14. You will invest in big lenses and wont use them fully after further upgrades. And not sure lenses will be cheap,  some folks put price lenses with conventional mount according to size) kinda good news - one guy is selling old 25µm vga core(about 20mm diameter) from Xenics in Moscow, it costs about 1100 euros, kinda good for 30hz. Not sure you will be able to deliver it through/avoiding customs, but description might be useful anyway)
https://www.avito.ru/moskva/audio_i_video/modul_teplovizionnyy_640x480_xenics_2016579827
Frasers ebay found might be a steal if you could replace the core) zoom/focus is quite likely mechanically controlled, saw some folks make Thermal-eye 250D 100mm lens focus manually just by adding a knob, initially it was AF

[Fraser]

Further information on the core being sold in the auction..... it was removed from its original casing by the seller and was not ‘deactivated’ by him so hopefully it will be complete 

I advise caution if you are interested but outside the UK. This is Ex military hardware and can be subject to export licence requirements due to its capabilities and original deployment.

Fraser

[Vipitis]

I will think about this for the remaining days, as I am importing (beyond EU borders now -.-) it could be an issue. I am only in it for the lens and might have a chance to resell the core (or keep if it easily work). As those are 5° and 20° fovs, I expect that is horizontal field of view which would mean like 40mm and 160mm focal lengths for ~20mm image circle.
As I have 25µm VGA and 35µm QVGA cores to use with, a 50µ QVGA made lens should do it just fine. I will try to guess the size of that large front element by looking at the various images provided.

Having a larger lens collection that just the 32mm and 150mm with something like a dual fov lens would be great. I also have some smaller lenses and a few spare elements already - but to combine it all into useful lenses that can be focused and mounted to the same core will be a longer project I might need professional help with.

E: the brochure is archived in the archive linked, it's f/1.44

[Ultrapurple]

Well, I bid on it - and was astonished to see the price nearly triple in the last few seconds. Congratulations to whoever bought it; it looks like a very interesting piece of kit. Thanks Fraser for spotting it.

[CJay]

He's got some interesting stuff, the 'Unknown manufacturer' camera with what looks like an N type connector for instance...

[Fraser]

The “Unknown Camera” was the visible light partner to the dual field of view thermal camera in its original deployment. It is a military camera and these commonly use high quality connectors that are weather proof. I own a couple of these cylindrical long range military cameras. They often have sophisticated CCD cameras in them but sadly the control protocol is proprietary and, as far as I know, not in the public domain.

Fraser

[Fraser]

The dual FOV camera sold for the right money considering its unknown operational state and its dual view Germanium lens. It is a very nice camera that in years gone by I would have bought without hesitation. The person who bought the other examples from the seller got a bargain IMHO.

Fraser

[CJay]

Ahh, makes sense now, it's obviously very high quality, O-Ring seals, heavy duty frame, the two multi-pin connectors look to be aerospace/military grade.

Worth a punt just for a teardown I think, the lens mount looks to be C or CS so the lens and control assembly itself would be fun to add to a 'standard' camera.

[Fraser]

The camera is available again. 

Apparently the wining bidder was in Germany and the seller refused to ship to Germany due to the items sensitivities. Currently at £160 with 3 bids on it. I will not be bidding on this camera and have no association with it or the seller.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLIR-Thermal-Digital-Camera/124602086698?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D91613dcdcfa847f086e6dba3b571d0e0%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D124602086698%26itm%3D124602086698%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DFlir&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A6ff79428-7ace-11eb-88a2-e2dee41e9eaa%7Cparentrq%3Aef85d90b1770ada5d50b8058fffe70a8%7Ciid%3A1

Fraser

[Ultrapurple]

I am pleased to report that not only has Fraser been saved from himself, the camera is now safely re-homed into the hands of a Forum member.

[Fraser]

Ultrapurple,

Thank you for saving me from the temptation to buy yet another thermal camera that I truly do not ‘need’ 

I am pleased that the camera has gone to a good home with a forum member. From what I understand, three of these cameras are now in the hands of forum members so hopefully we will hear more about the design in the future. 

I have some documentation and the GUI for the Photon core that is apparently in the rear of the camera module so I can provide such if needed. I am hopeful that the Photon is a standard firmware build so that the GUI will work. The lens control was likely an external system so focus and FOV will have to be operated manually unless the controller can be replicated. I believe these were auto focus units.

I will continue to highlight auctions for nice cameras I find on eBay as it seems the only way to stop me buying them myself !

Fraser

[bap2703]

Can't wait to see a teardown or it in action 

[Ultrapurple]

Well, I haven't managed to have a proper look at it yet but I have opened it up and taken some quick snapshots.

All the casework is milled from solid billet and made to a very high standard. No wonder these cameras were expensive.

Underneath the camera is an inch-deep box with a D-connector jutting out. That's the only external connector. Opening the base reveals quite a lot of circuitry on several boards.

The optical section splits into two: the lens assembly and the sensor assembly. The latter is fixed to the inch-thick box mentioned earlier. The lens assembly has a D-connector that marries up with another on the sensor assembly. A jumper cable would be required to run the camera 'open' - but there wouldn't be much point, as the sensor would have no optics in front of it...

Anyway, on to the photos. As I said, these are just a quick and dirty initial look-see.