Poll

Has the hackabiliy of the E4 made you buy one :  

Yes, I was already looking at the competition at a similar price, but the hack swung it to E4
277 (28.1%)
Yes, I'd not considered buying a TIC before, but 320x240 resolution at this price justifies it (as either tool or toy!)
444 (45.1%)
Yes, I was going to buy an E5/6/8 class of unit but will now get the E4
49 (5%)
No, but am looking out for a cheap i3 to hack
51 (5.2%)
Not yet, but probably will if now that a closed-box hack becomes is possible
164 (16.6%)

Total Members Voted: 807

Author Topic: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown  (Read 4077229 times)

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Offline olsenn

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #725 on: November 06, 2013, 02:20:39 pm »
Does anyone have the time and equipment to actually measure the sensitivity of the E4 (converted to an E8)?

Here's how FLIR does it: http://flir.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/128
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #726 on: November 06, 2013, 02:35:35 pm »
Whaaaat??
Did you order from outside the EU? I suspect there may still be VAT to add to that.

I quoted my VAT registration number during the order process, no VAT to pay.

Ahhhh, still a good price :)
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #727 on: November 06, 2013, 02:45:02 pm »
Fairly sure the sensor has no cooling - if it is, it's on the die.
The unit does run quite warm after a while, so not inconcievable it's warmed a little, but as the temp sensor is on the frame, this may cause thermal gradients.
However the rubber mountings, as well as providing shock protection could also provide thermal isolation from the case.
 
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Online Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #728 on: November 06, 2013, 03:08:17 pm »
Mike,

Please see the link I provided, above. repeated here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/thermal-imaging-camera-microbolometer-design-detail/msg322927/#msg322927

The conventional MO for temperature stabilisation of the detector is to bond the die directly to the peltier module so they become one unit with excellent thermal transfer efficiency. The die temperature is monitored by two (2) thermocouples positioned on opposite sides of the die. The chassis temperature monitoing that you found is normally the 'lens temperature' that the system uses to establish the ambient temperature. This is used in the image processing algorithms along with emissivity settings.

There are definitely micro-bolometers that do not have the peltier temperature stabilisation,l but if they are more expensive to impliment, I wouldl expect the peltier type to be fitted to a 'budget' camera. Saying that, my link includes a link to an Indigo article circa 2006 detailing a non stabilised micro-bolometer.  :-//
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:12:44 pm by Aurora »
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Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #729 on: November 06, 2013, 03:18:34 pm »
I suppose a quick test would be to look for a change in current draw with temperature. The only place a cooler could possibly be is on the lower die.
I suppose I could look at the die with my other TIC (or even an humble IR thermometer).
Some heating or coolling may explain the ~ in front of the displayed temp figure at startup.
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #730 on: November 06, 2013, 03:25:05 pm »
Flir Ex is always described to use an uncooled microbolometer as detector.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #731 on: November 06, 2013, 03:30:29 pm »
Flir Ex is always described to use an uncooled microbolometer as detector.
Quite a common term but may be used more to distinguish from stuff that needs more serious cryo-cooling.
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #732 on: November 06, 2013, 04:06:43 pm »
Micro-bolometers are often temperature stabilised using an integrated peltier module. Some newer micro=bolometers have dispensed with the Peltier based temperature stabilisation. I am not sure whether the E series FPA has a Peltier module but I suspect that it has.
 ...

Take a look at this thread that I produced:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/thermal-imaging-camera-microbolometer-design-detail/msg322927/#msg322927

Thanks for the info!

As pointed out by others, the Ex series is listed as an uncooled microbolometer in the specs. So based on that I was more or less under the impression that there would be no Peltier. Unless it is one of those jargon thingies, where in the domain of TICs "uncooled" really means "cooled, but not insanely cooled". As in, yeah usually we use liquid helium, but today we'll make do with a simple peltier so puny mortals can actually afford this device.

Another reason I was guessing the E4 doesn't have a peltier ... in Mike's video I didn't see any obvious wires for the supply. Unless of course it's a really wimpy peltier integrated right under the die and only using 0.00001 mA or so. ;)

But if it does have active temperature control, it would be a bad idea to mess with the control loop, agreed. It was more like, suppose there is no active temperature control, is there anything that can be done to improve temperature uniformity across the die and by that hopefully being able to get some more resolution. That is of course assuming that the ADC has enough resolution to make use of this. If not ==> forgeddaboutit.

Anyways, probably not practical, but just thinking aloud.

As for the 60 fps matter, it's a bit of a toss-up. It depends entirely how they re-used their IP for the fpga. There's a chance that you can simply set the downsampling, and there's a chance the 9 fps downsampling rate is fixed in this particular .bit files for the fpga. I did take a look at the various .bit files for the Ex and Exx series, and well, see previous. The low end of the Exx series actually has a slightly smaller bit file. Which I translate to: has similar or slightly lower complexity logic. As in, they do the 60 fps in a slightly smaller (or exactly the same) device, so no reason for it not to include 60 fps there. And when you think about it, to average/decimate frames from 60 to 9 fps you need more logic, not less.

So IFF they used the same IP for the Ex and Exx series, there's a pretty good chance that the bitstream for E4 is capable of doing 60 Hz. It really depends on the whims of your local friendly Flir developers.
 

Offline Misco Jones

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #733 on: November 06, 2013, 04:19:40 pm »
I bought a E4 last week and I seen the hack to convert it to E8 but I have fear that it may stop working.

Is there any way to make a backup before or returning the firmware to the original version once applied the patch.

Thanks in advance.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #734 on: November 06, 2013, 04:28:32 pm »
I bought a E4 last week and I seen the hack to convert it to E8 but I have fear that it may stop working.

Is there any way to make a backup before or returning the firmware to the original version once applied the patch.

Thanks in advance.
No reports of any issues from many successful hacks so far.
You can backup files if you want using USB RNDIS and FTP using Filezilla
The hack does not alter any file on the device, it just adds a single file which overrides the default configuration- removing this file reverts it to normal E4 mode.
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 04:37:21 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Online Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #735 on: November 06, 2013, 04:53:22 pm »
To be clear on the terms used.... A cryo cooled TIC cools the detector to an insane approx. -200 Degrees Celcius. It does this with a Stirling engine cooler charged with Helium. Many have asked the question whether such a mechanical cooler could be replaced with a Peltier stack. Sadly the answer is no. The losses and physics of the Peltier stack preclude such a temperature differential at normal ambient levels on earth. I used to use Liquid Nitrogen in cameras so the Stirling cooler is a great step forwards compared to that. The maintenance cost and noise generated by the cooler are the two big drawbacks to cryo cooling, not to mention the high power consumption.

The 'uncooled' detector is called such because it does not need to be cooled to cryogenic temperature levels in order to produce useful data. The Cryo cooled detectors produce nothing useful at ambient temperatures due to their internal heating and noise. The cryogenic temperatures reduce such to levels where by the output is actually lower noise than a micro-bolometer. For scientific work Cryo-cooling is often the way to go.

The large down side to micro-bolometers is that they are basically an array of thermistors. As many will know, thermistors are used as temperature sensors as they change value with temperature. The problem is, the temperature inside a TIC changes and the die of the micro-bolometer also includes electronics that produce heat. This all adds up to a micro-bolometer that has pixel outputs straying all over the place without an image presented to them. To 'tame' the micro-bolometer, it is actually HEATED to 30 degrees Celcius and held at that temperature by a Peltier module. If the die gets too hot, it is cooled, if it gets too cool, it is heated. It is not, however considered to be a 'cooled' detector, just temperature stabilised.

Not all semiconductor based thermal imaging arrays need to be Cryo cooled. The BST detector array is such a device. These predate the Micro-bolometer and some may say they are superior. They fell behind in development when the US Govt pulled the funding. Micro-bolometers were the 'new tech' and the US Govt put the funding into that, and developed it into what you are using today. It must be remembered that this technology originally had two major uses....an aid to fire fighters rescuing people in dense smoke, and an aid to killing your enemies on the battlefield ! It is an odd world we live in but warfare and Military matters often lead to investment in technology and its rapid advancement which hopefully benefits many.

I hope this helps to explain the situation a little clearer.

The current needed to control the die temperature is not as much as you might think. The die's thermal mass is low. The Peltier module wires on my Microbolometer are actually quite thin. I will add a photo. They are the white ptfe insulated wires in the image. The PM695 draws around 1A when operating and she is an old girl in comparison to the E series, full of power hungry discrete IC's and motors ! The Peltier module normally only has to compensate for die self heating and small changes in ambient and at 30 Degrees is only around 10 degrees or so above comfort level for humans. I you take it to the Arctic or somewhere else cold, it is a different matter  ;D it will have to work harder so battery life may be reduced.


Please look at the attached Patent document that shows the construction of micro-bolometers.

Also, please take a look at the document that is found here: (Chapter 4)

http://archives.njit.edu/vol01/etd/1990s/1997/njit-etd1997-027/njit-etd1997-027.pdf
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 05:23:02 pm by Aurora »
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Offline G0HZU

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #736 on: November 06, 2013, 04:58:02 pm »
Mine arrived OK and has the 1.18.8 firmware. The camera is surprisingly useful in 80x60 mode already especially with the MSX enabled.

What is the latest procedure for the mod? Do I still pm Mike for this?

I've been using the Irisys camera today at work so it will be interesting to see how the modded E4 compares. At the moment the E4 looks very noisy and snowy in 80x60 but I'm hoping it will be a different story in 320x240...

Thanks :)

 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #737 on: November 06, 2013, 05:58:42 pm »
To 'tame' the micro-bolometer, it is actually HEATED to 30 degrees Celcius and held at that temperature by a Peltier module. If the die gets too hot, it is cooled, if it gets too cool, it is heated. It is not, however considered to be a 'cooled' detector, just temperature stabilised.

In pratice at everyday temps you could probably save cost and just use a heater, maybe to slightly over 30 deg.

This may explain whey I could see a 'hot' when the E4 looks at the lens of my FireFLIR
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Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #738 on: November 06, 2013, 05:59:47 pm »
Mine arrived OK and has the 1.18.8 firmware. The camera is surprisingly useful in 80x60 mode already especially with the MSX enabled.

What is the latest procedure for the mod? Do I still pm Mike for this?

I put a link to the most recent hack in the first post of this thread.
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Offline olsenn

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #739 on: November 06, 2013, 06:06:50 pm »
Mike, are you (or anyone else) still working on a 30/60Hz hack?
 

Offline Misco Jones

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #740 on: November 06, 2013, 06:11:37 pm »
Mike, thank you !!!!!

I don't think to return to E4 anymore !!

There is a "little difference" before the hack.

Regards.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #741 on: November 06, 2013, 06:13:12 pm »
Mike, are you (or anyone else) still working on a 30/60Hz hack?
Nope, but at some point I will be hooking up the raw sensor feed to a monitor - probably not for a while though as too busy with work.
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Offline tnt

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #742 on: November 06, 2013, 06:28:36 pm »
Mike, are you (or anyone else) still working on a 30/60Hz hack?

I posted a hack to try out a couple pages ago, but I don't think anyone gave it a shot.
 

Offline okent

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #743 on: November 06, 2013, 07:08:00 pm »
Add one more sold to the list.
Purchased one just now and should have it by Friday.
Thanks to Mike and everyone for the outstanding work done here.
Look forward to hacking my unit and enjoying great resolution at a great price.

Also look forward to seeing if anyone can figure out how to get 30/60hz. 8)
 

Offline Scutarius

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #744 on: November 06, 2013, 07:10:20 pm »
Note that the last version of FLIR Tools is  FLIR Tools+ 4.0 (4.0.13284.1003)
 

Offline Pinkus

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #745 on: November 06, 2013, 07:19:25 pm »
Also look forward to seeing if anyone can figure out how to get 30/60hz. 8)
Well, is this really important? For me it is quick enough, but maybe there are application-areas where this is needed.

At least for me, it would be much more important to get bluetooth or WIFI. As the Flir E4 boots up including the bluetooth code (you can see this in the debug-windows which pops up if you press middle joystick button during cold start), it might be only a matter of soldering a connector to the unpopulated areas on the PCB (and then getting hand on such a module for connecting it of course). I wonder if the E40 has such extra modules installed.

Anybody with an Exx want to join in with a teardown? ...... just a second: didn't Dave had an E60?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 07:47:07 pm by PeterK13 »
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #746 on: November 06, 2013, 08:35:36 pm »
I just did the mod on mine. It gave a scary error message on bootup but seems to be in the higher resolution mode.

With the 320x240 enabled it's a lot better than it was :)

However, it doesn't perform as good as the Irisys 4010 for closeup stuff. eg looking at SMD stuff on PCBs because the image looks very fuzzy and soft.

Is there an easy way to adjust the focus for closeup work?
 

Offline Pinkus

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #747 on: November 06, 2013, 08:38:05 pm »
Is there an easy way to adjust the focus for closeup work?
Just screw out the lens - check the video Mike did - it is not difficult, but if you do not want to remove the front cover you need to build yourself a tool to be able to turn the lens.
 

Offline ixfd64

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #748 on: November 06, 2013, 09:06:46 pm »
I just did the mod on mine. It gave a scary error message on bootup but seems to be in the higher resolution mode.

What was the message?

Offline olsenn

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #749 on: November 06, 2013, 09:22:28 pm »
Quote
What was the message?

It said, "All your base are belong to us!"
 


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