Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown

[mikeselectricstuff]

Could you perhaps make an adjustment tool out of some 'chemical metal' or similar:

- Wrap a layer of epoxy around a dowel of a suitable diameter
- (optionally) cover with cling film to prevent deposits from contaminating the lens
- press into the splined adjuster surrounding the lens and remove
- allow to harden
- trim to a convenient length

I thought of that but don't think you'd get a well enough defined edge

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mike,
You have mentioned the quality of the lens fitted in the E4. Can you explain a little more about why you believe it is not as good as that fitted in the E8. I know that the sensitivity specs differ a little but I am wondering if you have seen any other issues, such a distortion.

Simply that the E6 &8 have a better sensitivity spec,  I haven't seen anything that looks like it's related to sensitivity in the config file, and  that the nearly £4000 price difference might be at least in part down to better optics as opposed to cynical profiteering.
I don't know a great deal about optics but I think it's reasonable to assume that a lens that is 'just good enough' for 80x60 is cheaper than one that gets the best out of a 320x240 sensor.

[equinoxe]

I don't see any difference between the size of the E4 and the E8 lenses, maybe the coating is different??

[TopLoser]

Mike,
You have mentioned the quality of the lens fitted in the E4. Can you explain a little more about why you believe it is not as good as that fitted in the E8. I know that the sensitivity specs differ a little but I am wondering if you have seen any other issues, such a distortion.

Simply that the E6 &8 have a better sensitivity spec,  I haven't seen anything that looks like it's related to sensitivity in the config file, and  that the nearly £4000 price difference might be at least in part down to better optics as opposed to cynical profiteering.
I don't know a great deal about optics but I think it's reasonable to assume that a lens that is 'just good enough' for 80x60 is cheaper than one that gets the best out of a 320x240 sensor.

I've got a spare 25mm diameter lens from a TIC if you think you could make use of it?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't see any difference between the size of the E4 and the E8 lenses, maybe the coating is different??

As the units look identical it is quite possible that online images of an E8 could actually be an E4. Or an E8 Or anything inbetween...
It is of course entirely possible that they are identical, or different, or have different coatings, or have a different shape inside

Here are some close-up pics - hard to see but the outer surface is concave.
X-ray indicates it is a single piece.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mike,
You have mentioned the quality of the lens fitted in the E4. Can you explain a little more about why you believe it is not as good as that fitted in the E8. I know that the sensitivity specs differ a little but I am wondering if you have seen any other issues, such a distortion.

Simply that the E6 &8 have a better sensitivity spec,  I haven't seen anything that looks like it's related to sensitivity in the config file, and  that the nearly £4000 price difference might be at least in part down to better optics as opposed to cynical profiteering.
I don't know a great deal about optics but I think it's reasonable to assume that a lens that is 'just good enough' for 80x60 is cheaper than one that gets the best out of a 320x240 sensor.

I've got a spare 25mm diameter lens from a TIC if you think you could make use of it?

I have a few assorted  germanium optics - no had time to play yet. That one looks like it may be a bit big to be useable.
For what I want, screwing out the lens to get close focus seems to work pretty well, or at lead will do once I get a decent tool to adjust it more easily.

[ron]

Looks like you could make a focusing tool from a rubber stopper.  Or a piece of soft rubber/silicone tubing stretched over a short dowel leaving end of tubing extending past end of dowel.  Camera repair guys use these to disassemble lenses.

[Corporate666]

Bullet has been bitten... E4 ordered.
Any Flir reps reading should forward Mike a sales commission 

From traffic here and PMs alone , the current count is about six units so far....

Make that seven.

Decided to upgrade from my i7 to an E4. 

The photo/thermal merging ability, plus the 320x240 ability, plus the ability to focus close for PCB work made it a no-brainer.

Another commission check for Mike

[Hypernova]

Local dealer here in TW just gave me a quote for NT$48,300(1641USD) after tax, greedy bastards. Although if this is the only way to get one I might have to accept it.

[Zoltan von Negrow]

Local dealer here in TW just gave me a quote for NT$48,300(1641USD) after tax, greedy bastards. Although if this is the only way to get one I might have to accept it.

You are lucky for that 1641 USD. I gave in Czech republic 1800 USD,  .

For that price, I will not have regrets to hack it to E8

[tnt]

Well "official" price in europe is 995 EUR excl tax. So with taxes that's around 1650 USD.

[Zoltan von Negrow]

Well "official" price in europe is 995 EUR excl tax. So with taxes that's around 1650 USD.

Sorry for inaccuracy, its 1740 USD,  I used bad(month old) exchange rate.

[M. András]

Well "official" price in europe is 995 EUR excl tax. So with taxes that's around 1650 USD.

yeah cos here 1usd=1eur if you are a buisness

[equinoxe]

Well "official" price in europe is 995 EUR excl tax. So with taxes that's around 1650 USD.

yeah cos here 1usd=1eur if you are a buisness

That, or what I also have seen: 1 usd = 1.5 Euro..

BTW the Flir E4 is priced Eur 1200,- here in the Netherlands..

[mrflibble]

1200, or 1204? Because 995 ex btw is the cheapest I found...

[PA0PBZ]

for the Dutch guys: Conrad has them in stock and they have a 10% discount on everything going till monday, so that makes € 1.083,55 including tax.

[Pinkus]

Beside the possibility that the lower thermal sensitivity might only be on paper just to differentiate the more expensive E8 etc. from the cheap E4, can't it be, that the lower thermal sensitivity is due to the fact that the camera downsamples from 320x240 to 80x60? As it combines then 4x4 pixel to 1 pixel (and possibly adds some noise) it looses sensitivity of course. I doubt that Flir uses different lenses; it would probably cheaper to order/manufacture large amounts of the same lens (also used in I-series?) than having 3 or even more different lenses.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Beside the possibility that the lower thermal sensitivity might only be on paper just to differentiate the more expensive E8 etc. from the cheap E4, can't it be, that the lower thermal sensitivity is due to the fact that the camera downsamples from 320x240 to 80x60? As it combines then 4x4 pixel to 1 pixel (and possibly adds some noise) it looses sensitivity of course. I doubt that Flir uses different lenses; it would probably cheaper to order/manufacture large amounts of the same lens (also used in I-series?) than having 3 or even more different lenses.

It would be the opposite - avaraging 16 pixels would reduce noise, so if all other factors are identical, a downsampled image should have more temperature resolution, not less.
I don't think manufacturing cost savings due to volume come into it - The only thing that matters is minimum cost on the E4. There is plenty of headroom in the price of the higher models to cover any increased cost of smaller volumes of bigger lenses. I doubt we'd be talking more than $100 in the sort of volumes FLIR buy lenses in.
In terms of manufacturing process - remember they already fit a different LCD window to each model as it has the model number printed  on it, as well as a different side sticker. Screwing in a different lens wouldn't be a big deal.
 

[equinoxe]

1200, or 1204? Because 995 ex btw is the cheapest I found...

1204, I rounded it to 1200..

Will conrad also give a discount on the Flir?
(I don't like Conrad. They always mess things up. Last time I ordered something from conrad I ended up waiting 3 months.. )

[PA0PBZ]

Will conrad also give a discount on the Flir?

Yes they do, I ordered one.

[mrflibble]

for the Dutch guys: Conrad has them in stock and they have a 10% discount on everything going till monday, so that makes € 1.083,55 including tax.

Thanks for the tip!  I just ordered one.

And now let's hope Conrad doesn't fuck things up as per their usual modus operandi.

[CzokNorris]

If anyone knows, where I can buy one of these bare sensors or sensor assemblies, please let me know.
If I can get hold of one or two (without buying the whole camera) I would fit some germanium lens to it and implement the image processing on an FPGA.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If anyone knows, where I can buy one of these bare sensors or sensor assemblies, please let me know.
If I can get hold of one or two (without buying the whole camera) I would fit some germanium lens to it and implement the image processing on an FPGA.

Zero chance of that - manufactures won't talk to you unless you're doing volume. the only other route to cheap high-res is ex-vehicle night vision cams, but these tend to go on ebay for a similar price range to the E4.
e.g,
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Night-Vision-Camera-/161126804979?hash=item2583e7edf3
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-night-vision-camera-for-F-series-brand-new-original-in-original-packaging-/121122060732?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c336ff9bc

[Fraser]

Anyone thinking of buying one of those BMW or Audi thermal cameras for use rather than parts salvage, should be aware that the output from the module is propriatary data over LVDS. they are designed to only work with their associated ECU. Many have found out only after buying one -= money wasted 

The much older Raytheon BST based Cadillac thermal camera is Composite video output but the cameras are very expensive on the used market considering their poor performance when compared to the E4. The car mounted cameras are also vulnerable to stone chip damage to the Germanium lens, even when a lens protector was fitted.

This is a route into TIC ownership that I considered, and quickly discounted. If you can pick up a working Cadillac TIC for less than $300 then that would be reasonable for playing with. Such a unit offers no (repeat no) ability to influence its image output.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Anyone thinking of buying one of those BMW or Audi thermal cameras for use rather than parts salvage, should be aware that the output from the module is propriatary data over LVDS. they are designed to only work with their associated ECU. Many have found out only after buying one -= money wasted 

The much older Raytheon BST based Cadillac thermal camera is Composite video output but the cameras are very expensive on the used market considering their poor performance when compared to the E4. The car mounted cameras are also vulnerable to stone chip damage to the Germanium lens, even when a lens protector was fitted.

This is a route into TIC ownership that I considered, and quickly discounted. If you can pick up a working Cadillac TIC for less than $300 then that would be reasonable for playing with. Such a unit offers no (repeat no) ability to influence its image output.

I wonder if that data format is the same as the info I found ( I think for the Tau) , which looks indentical to the one on the E4 (the latter just not being LVDS).  This would be easy to decode - the only question is how much processing is needed of the data - for vision as opposed to thermography it's probably a lot simpler.