Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review

[mzzj]

If you take a look at yourself in a mirror with the thermal camera, you will see a perfect thermal rendition of yourself. This even happens if you look at a shiny surface like a poster. It can make using a thermal camera more challenging but you get to know the issues with regular use. This is why it is recommended to complete a training course in thermography if doing it professionally. There are plenty of traps for newbies to fall into.

Have you tried this actually?

Normal window class is pretty much non-transparent and reasonably high emissivity for thermal cameras because of the wavelengt, so I would expect pretty much the same from ordinary household mirror, ie thermal camera shows more or less glass surface temperature?

For successful infrared mirror you would need first-surface mirror coated with gold or something like that.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Oh, and there's a serial port (winCE debug console) and I2C bus, connected to an eeprom which happens to contain production data like serial numbers. cal dates, both available on an internal connector that needs minimal disassembly to plug into. Of course there could be some robust protection in there somewhere - not played much yet - just been observing. 

And AFICS no warranty seal. You would need to use the second disassembly method shown in my video though  - thoings got a bit violent before I figured out the right way....

Still shooting, and a shitload of editing to do, so maybe sometime over the weekend.

[Sar]

Have you tried this actually?

Normal window class is pretty much non-transparent and reasonably high emissivity for thermal cameras because of the wavelengt, so I would expect pretty much the same from ordinary household mirror, ie thermal camera shows more or less glass surface temperature?

For successful infrared mirror you would need first-surface mirror coated with gold or something like that.

That's not true, attached is a photo I took of myself with a Flir, that is the reflection from normal single pane window glass.

[zapta]

Mike, I was in the market for a low end TIC and your review helped me to make a decision, thanks. Just placed an order for an E4, will see how it goes, I always envied Superman's IR vision. Dave, thanks for the negative VT02 review, it prevented me from buying it.

[Fraser]

mzzj,

Yes, such has been a regular occurrence in my use of TIC's. You are correct that a surface coated mirror would be most efficient but remember that glass will reflect my body heat quite effectively as well.

I attach a picture that I just took looking at my mirror....just for you 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why does it look like a scratch/mark on that black piece?

Dust/dirt/hair

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you stop and listen very carefully you can just hear the screams of Oh Sh*t ! at FLIR HQ 

They haven't seen the vid yet.... 

[Fraser]

Mike, your reputation for detailed tear downs goes before you ....... they are likely wringing their hands in anticipation of a potential discovery that the whole new E series are actually pretty much the same electronics package with only software config differences !

I am not predicting an easy hack of the firmware though.....that may be quite well defended ?

It is interesting that the firmware in my PM570 cameras states "Elite Configuration" whilst others show "PRO Configuration" on what appear to be the same hardware. The "Configuration" just adds or removes capabilities. If this was the case in the late 1990's it could still be the case now.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Sneak peek at E4 sensor - and no this has not been taken out of a sealed can!
Some major packaging cost reduction. Datastream suggests raw format is 320x240 at 60fps.

:GRIN:

Are you actually suggesting the sensor in the E4 is 320x240?
If so they're probably sensors with many bad pixels that would otherwise be useless for making perfect higher res units.

Few bad spots @ 320x240@60hz is still infinitely better than 80x60@9

I would say the probability of there being 4 different sensors for teh 4 models is near-zero. However I don't know if all the datastream is as meaningful as its bandwidth suggests, or if the datastream I saw was coming out of the sensor or was a processed stream from the FPGA. However 14-16 bit raw sensor data would be my bet at this stage. This would need some processing to make it useful.
Been busy with work all day but back on it tonight. Assuming the Black Helicopters don't get me first.
AFAICS they have integrated the ADC on the sensor die, and some unbonded pads that look like they're used for test, so it's not impossible that they could have some fuses on there to cripple it some fairly robust way. there are some rather odd looking structures visible on the die.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I am not predicting an easy hack of the firmware though.....that may be quite well defended ?

Maybe, maybe not. Could be anywhere between impossible and trivial from what I've seen so far. Even if the sensor is hard-crippled, there may be scope to enable the options of the higher models. There is also a plausible route to a plug-in mod that makes no permanent change to the device   (See Agilent MSOX thread)

[Fraser]

Mike,

I suspect you have many of us on the edge of our seats 

Thanks for your efforts

[nixxon]

..so how does the camera know if it's looking at a real source or a reflected one?

... it doesn't?

(...)

Let's say you measure the temperature of a polished gold sphere with an emissivity of 0.03. Then 97% of the reading would be of the temperature of the environment, and not the gold sphere.

So if the gold sphere was 100 'C and the environment reflecting on the sphere was 0'C, the temperature reading would be way too low, maybe between 3 and 4 'C.

If you set the emissivity in the TIC to 0.03 and the Background Temperature to 0'C, I believe the idea is that the reading of the TIC would be correct (100'C). When looking at a circuit board with dozens of different materials, it is not possible to set the emissivity correctly for more than one of the materials. So, I guess the usefulness of the Emissivity setting is limited, and should be left at something like 0.95 normally. Then you evaluate simply put into the equation that shiny metal readings are not likely to be correct, and put a piece of tape onto these objects or paint which has high emissivity.

However the shiny metals we may want to measure the temperature of in a circuit (copper trace or - cable) often conducts (by contact)  it's heat to nearby materials with higher emissivity, i.e. the PCB or a cable insulation. Then the near by PCB or cable insulation would be close to the real temperature of the copper trace or -cable.

The only thing that has an emissivity of 1.000000000 and would give a 100% correct reading on a TIC is a theoretical abstraction called a Black Body.

Here is a link to an emissivity table I found after a quick search:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html

I have not checked how close it is to other tables by Fluke/Flir etc.

[Hamster]

i do board repair, and was thinking of picking one of these up, i clearly see it doesn't have a good close up / high resolution that would be needed... thanks for saving me the $$ !

[azinfrared]

Anything that a thermal training course would tell you, you could learn by yourself just by using a TI for a couple weeks.

Mike, would that non-user-accessible port be the same as the one in the i7?

This is not true.  I am a level III thermographier and I can tell you that most of the information I learned is not available anywhere except via training.  And the training is vastly different between sources.

[azinfrared]

New E series as a whole are not great units for most applications. 

They are super low res, no focus ring, no range and span control.   Focus and range/span control are basic functions that are needed for most applications. 

Find attached 3 images that were taken within 10 seconds of each other.  Everything is the same between the images with the exception of the range/span setting. 

The biggest detail that is easy to notice is between the first image and the 3rd image (cold cup).  Note the inside rim of the cup where the water is not touching.  Huge detail difference between that one and the image with both cups in it. 

Low end cameras are just that, low end.  You will not produce imagery like the ones shown here with these systems.  They really should call these systems, limited IR.  They are IR but the details missed would render them useless to anyone doing IR professionally. 

The FLIR E40 is really the current entry level cam, IMO. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

i do board repair, and was thinking of picking one of these up, i clearly see it doesn't have a good close up / high resolution that would be needed... thanks for saving me the $$ !

The lens is adjustable, so should be able to get closer focus - I only noticed when it was apart so not sure how easy when assembled - may just need a tool. May leave this to a seperate vid once I also get the ZnSe lenses to try. 

[azinfrared]

..so how does the camera know if it's looking at a real source or a reflected one?

... it doesn't?

(...)

Let's say you measure the temperature of a polished gold sphere with an emissivity of 0.03. Then 97% of the reading would be of the temperature of the environment, and not the gold sphere.

So if the gold sphere was 100 'C and the environment reflecting on the sphere was 0'C, the temperature reading would be way too low, maybe between 3 and 4 'C.

The problem with this example is your target.  Round objects (round in any fashion) appear hotter the nearer you get to the edge of the object (where the deflection of light is the most).  Yes you have reflection issues going on as well.  Ultimately, this target is a nightmare for IR.  Round, bad emitter, etc. 

Also keep in mind that emmissivity is only for accurate temps.  If you have two gold sphere and you know the tolerances for operating temps then you can simply compare the two within an image.  A better example is a room full of motors and the motors are exactly the same type, load, etc. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

New E series as a whole are not great units for most applications. 
They are super low res, no focus ring, no range and span control.   Focus and range/span control are basic functions that are needed for most applications. 

But they affordable to a lot of users who couldn't justify the cost of a high-end TIC, and are MUCH more useful than a spot IR thermometer.
Maybe less so for evaluating heat loss in buildings, but things like electrical faultfinding and condition checking can easily do without high resolution
 the E4 does have range lock, so you can compare images with the same scaling, but you can't manually set the range.
 

Low end cameras are just that, low end.  You will not produce imagery like the ones shown here with these systems.  They really should call these systems, limited IR.  They are IR but the details missed would render them useless to anyone doing IR professionally. 

The FLIR E40 is really the current entry level cam, IMO.

That is a ludicrous statement. Tool snobbery even. TICs have many different applications, and for some users, the E4 is more than adequate for a wide range of tasks.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Some major packaging cost reduction. Datastream suggests raw format is 320x240 at 60fps.

A less exciting possibility is that the stream is simply a serialised vesrion of the image data it's sending to the SoC for display. Hopefully not though - it will be very easy to determine this once I get back to it.

[Fraser]

Mike,

I had missed that the unit is not able to be set into manual span and centre temperature mode. I am very sad to hear that as it is important in my experience. As you say, the E4 will suit some users basic needs but the loss of the manual span and C.Temp mode is a great pity. FLIR are protecting the sales of their higher end units as manual mode is purely a software function.

[azinfrared]

New E series as a whole are not great units for most applications. 

They are super low res, no focus ring, no range and span control.   Focus and range/span control are basic functions that are needed for most applications.

Low end cameras are just that, low end.  You will not produce imagery like the ones shown here with these systems.  They really should call these systems, limited IR.  They are IR but the details missed would render them useless to anyone doing IR professionally. 

The FLIR E40 is really the current entry level cam, IMO.

Your post is irrelevant, whiny flamebait and a prime example of tool snobbery. I would not at all be surprised if you have an InterNACHI account.

The emissivity setting is really useless as it's just a resolution scale, not a meaningful calculation. Get over your $5000 "LEVEL III THERMOGRAPHER" title and be reasonable.

You seem a little angry.

Emissivity is not a resolution scale.  Emissivity is a correction to the emittence level of an object.  As already stated by an earlier poster nothing emits IR energy at the same rate. 

As far as training, SNT-TC-1A is widely considered the go to certification for anything related to non destructive testing.  Not just IR.  Real world engineers (not message board ones) are almost always certified under this standard and it is easily the most accepted throughout all fields of NDT. 

I do invite you to check out www.irinfo.org.  It has many papers, articles and white papers on emissivity as well as many other resources for thermal imaging systems and radiometers in general.

[Fraser]

azinfrared,

Thank you for the interesting web link.

Fraser

[azinfrared]

azinfrared,

Thank you for the interesting web link.

Fraser

No problem.  Super good stuff on there.  In addition, it is owned by Jim Seffrin.  Jim is probably the leading authority on IR in the USA.  When IR litigation happens throughout the country, he is usually the first phone call made to be the expert witness.

[azinfrared]

By the way.  Brenton Ward is down in your parts (AU). 

He is another big time authority in IR.

His company is Industrial Precision Instruments.  You can google them.  They go by IPI.

He teaches all levels of IR, down under.

[Fraser]

Just found an interesting image enhancement article by NEC Avio on the IRInfo site. Interesting reading. My PM695 has some image enhancement capability that I have yet to explore fully.

http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/4_1_2012_tamura.html

And an interesting article on the less obvious uses for a TIC written by FLIR 

http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_10_2003_flir_keane.html

And another article:

http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_12_2003_stockton.html

And this on the proprietary data formats output by TIC's

http://www.irinfo.org/Articles/article_4_2006_colbert.html

and finally, an explanation of specs

http://www.irinfo.org/articles/11_01_2012_swirnow.html

There are plenty of interesting articles to read on the site. Worth taking a look.