Author Topic: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review  (Read 156877 times)

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Offline tnt

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #150 on: October 16, 2013, 12:41:12 pm »
ITAR is about US citizen/companies exporting restricted technologies. AFAIU, They couldn't attack mike ... they could only attack FLIR for not providing adequate restrictions.
 

Offline CzokNorris

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #151 on: October 16, 2013, 12:51:07 pm »
Guys, export restrictions have been lifted on this type of cameras. The ITAR 9 fps rule only applies to 640x480 which is FLIRS "Tau" product line.
Refer: http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Export_license.html

Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the credibility of this online sources of course...  :-/O
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #152 on: October 16, 2013, 12:55:32 pm »
ITAR is about US citizen/companies exporting restricted technologies. AFAIU, They couldn't attack mike ... they could only attack FLIR for not providing adequate restrictions.
Without looking at details, The issue of FLIR selling something which allows access to a high-framerate datastream is potentially a bigger deal that someone pointing it out.

I have been in email correspondence with someone at FLIR subsequent to the review, talking about some of the things I raised (and was complemented on my efforts with the FireFLIR). I don't know if he's aware of the teardown yet, and I've not heard anything since (wasn't particularly expecting to) - I'm sure they will be in touch of they have any concerns. Meanwhile I'll keep a lookout for Black Helicopters.

The datastream format is actually documented in the Tau spec documents available on the FLIR website.

Incidentally the device is labelled as designed in Sweden and manufactured in Estonia.
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Offline CzokNorris

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #153 on: October 16, 2013, 01:06:36 pm »
 :rant:  :rant:  :rant: Rant time:  :rant:  :rant:  :rant:
Why are americans so B*tchy about their export regulations anyway??
If someone here in Germany wants to build a weapon, they can simply buy a thermocamera from a german supplier.. For example Jenopick GMBH has got ones with 3.1 Megapixels in thermal resolution and 30 fps. Absolutely no problem - you can say "Jallh, Jallh" and look like a terrorist and someone will be happy to sell a high rated thermocam to you as long as you have a few thousand Euros handy... Its absolutely ridiculous and funny to the point where it isn't funny any more.
Its freaking consumer electronics! Even in Nord korea it wont be a problem for them to get their hands on the few cams they might need to "build a weapon?!?". There are millions of this things around and you can buy them everywhere!! Microbolometers are not rocket science!
 

Offline CzokNorris

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #154 on: October 16, 2013, 01:29:19 pm »
Aurora:
Thats because its not much more expensive to build a larger quantity of a semiconductor product once you have the production line. The really costy stuff are the light masks and the testing gear.
Thats why I am pretty sure, that it would be way more expensive to have four or even two production lines of microbolometers instead of just one. And dont forget, that your firmware will be more heterogenic too - a big problem for a company which uses Windows  :-DD in this kind of products.
Its clearly a marketing and enterprise market driven awfully hierarchial company.
All the high tech Flir has is acquired from Indigo and all they do is provide the packaging...

Plus: They may provide software+lens upgrades in the future to turn an E4 into say an E6...

Anyway: The sensor is really interesting, because its super compact, has got the AD converters on board and provides pretty direct acces to the data. I am sure you could build a way better and more energy efficient camera in really short time - maybe something like a smartphone accessory similar to the stick on old school cameras that where around back in the days of dumb phones  :-DMM


 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #155 on: October 16, 2013, 01:31:44 pm »
Guys, export restrictions have been lifted on this type of cameras. The ITAR 9 fps rule only applies to 640x480 which is FLIRS "Tau" product line.
Refer: http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Export_license.html

Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the credibility of this online sources of course...  :-/O

Hard to wade through all the regs but I did come across a reference to total pixel count of 111,000, which woudl be where the 384x288 (110,592) appears to come from.

Flir have a page with export info,  but nothing listed on the E series
http://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/en/view/?id=55418


It appears that regs were changed in 2009 to reduce restrictions on devices below 111,000 pixels below 60fps.

This is the most readable doc I could find

I've not read through it enough to determine what restrictions, if any, apply to cams in this category
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 01:35:08 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Online zapta

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #156 on: October 16, 2013, 02:50:17 pm »
FLIR have confirmed they are sending me an E8 for review, after all, it likely costs them no more than the E4  ;D
But I won't be taking mine apart, not because I fear FLIR or some lawyer bots, but because I fear Murphy  :o
It didn't look trivial to take apart and put back together...

Do you need to return it in working condition?

Will be interesting to compare the internals of the E4 and E8. Possibly just firmware differences.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2013, 02:54:39 pm »
FLIR have confirmed they are sending me an E8 for review, after all, it likely costs them no more than the E4  ;D
But I won't be taking mine apart, not because I fear FLIR or some lawyer bots, but because I fear Murphy  :o
It didn't look trivial to take apart and put back together...

Do you need to return it in working condition?

Will be interesting to compare the internals of the E4 and E8. Possibly just firmware differences.
The only external difference I'd expect is the lens - Dave : make sure you do a close-up - I've not found any good pics online.
 I can send a pic of the E4 lens if you want to show a comparison
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2013, 03:41:50 pm »
Will be interesting to compare the internals of the E4 and E8. Possibly just firmware differences.

Yeah, it would be really really awesome if Dave could get a serial boot log just like Mike did. That way we could compare the messages and possibly infer some things.

@Mike:
Serial port was just ground + an easily accessible TX pad somewhere?
Also, how difficult would you rate taking it apart in retrospect. As in, now that you know where the screws are located.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2013, 04:15:45 pm »
Quote
Yeah, it would be really really awesome if Dave could get a serial boot log just like Mike did. That way we could compare the messages and possibly infer some things.
An E8 eeprom dump would be even nicer (as would one from another E4) - Happy to send a FFC cable adapter & I think Dave already has a bus pirate... But I suspect he will chicken out of opening it....


Will be interesting to compare the internals of the E4 and E8. Possibly just firmware differences.

Yeah, it would be really really awesome if Dave could get a serial boot log just like Mike did. That way we could compare the messages and possibly infer some things.

@Mike:
Serial port was just ground + an easily accessible TX pad somewhere?
It's on an unused FFC connector which can be accessed after removing only the first 2 screws. Ditto access to i2C eeprom and (if necessary) RTC+NVRAM. CPU Reset and on/off lines are also there so unhindered access to ee should be no problem.
There are some other pins yet to be investigated - my guess would be JTAG.
Quote
Also, how difficult would you rate taking it apart in retrospect. As in, now that you know where the screws are located.
Very easy - see reassembly at end of teardown vid. Lift off a lightly stuck front trim, then a few screws ( all the same as well) and a couple of clips. Trickiest bit was getting the LCD clip back ( a lot edited out of vid!) but I may have started at the wrong end. Rubber cover at top was also a little fiddly to get back in.
I didn't see any evidence of any sort of warranty seal. Just be careful you don't lose the spring from the lens cover - see teardown vid for details.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:17:59 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2013, 06:57:45 pm »
Mike has a video on how to handle those stickers as well..........
 

Offline mrflibble

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2013, 07:02:25 pm »
Do the stickers survive the ordeal?  ;D
 

Online zapta

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #162 on: October 17, 2013, 04:59:39 am »
Mike has a video on how to handle those stickers as well..........

Link?
 

Offline neggles

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #163 on: October 17, 2013, 01:18:43 pm »
Mike has a video on how to handle those stickers as well..........

Link?

He doesn't have that many videos, mate - but it's here
 

Online zapta

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #164 on: October 19, 2013, 06:44:00 pm »
Got yesterday the E4 (thanks Dave and Mike for your reviews) and here is my first impression. This is my first TIC ever and I am not a pro so take this with a grain of salt. The unit is larger than I expected, a little bit on the bulky side but not a problem. It feels lighter than I would expect from a rugged product at this size which gives the subjective feeling of a 'rugged look' but again, not a problem, I don't expect to abuse it. It feels nice in the hand and all 5 buttons are easily accessible and have good feel. Screen size is just right though not very visible in sunlight. Shutter feels 'plasticky' and does not turn the camera on or off (would be nice, will also act as a reminder to close the shutter when turning the camera off).

As Dave mentioned, the lens and the screen are not parallel which makes the aiming confusing. Also, the USB port is not in right angle to the camera surface which is strange when you try in insert the charger plug.

As Mike mentioned, some common functionalities requires digging into the menu structure instead of being available with a single click. For me the range lock/unlock is the most common function (when you look around a room, you want to have the same color range) but I found that if you open the lock/unlock function, then with a single click you can switch between the modes, while still see a live IR image (slightly obstructed by the menu). Same goes goes for other top menu controls such as color scheme and image mode, but not for the alignment distance setting which is more painful.

The MSX function (visible edges super imposed over IR image) works very good but obviously not in the dark (no flash, not even when you take a picture).

Image resolution is good enough for my needs and I would not pay 50% more to go to the E5 model. 9fps is also good enough for me, no complain here. One problem with the image is that is very noisy, you see all the time pixel's intensity jumping up and down, like the noise on old analog TVs. I think this happens because of the automatic ranging, for example, if the scale is 19-35C, this is only a small fraction of the dynamic range of the camera. Since internally they scan at 60fps, they do averaging over few frames (or maybe this is already after averaging).

The most annoying thing about this product is the frequent calibration, every 10 seconds or so the image freezes and a 'calibrating' message pops up. It would be nice to have a 'relative' mode where it does not show actual temperatures, just the relative colors. If I scan the room or a product looking for hot spots I don't really  care about the absolute temperature.

Overall I am very excited with this product and it is definitely a keeper. For example, we have in our home a room that gets very hot in the summer. With considered several solutions but a quick scan with the E4 suggests that the hit comes mostly through the glass door and not through the external walls or the roof so we will look for a solution in that direction (tinting,  awning, etc).

I also found that looking around the house with the camera reveals interesting information. For example, the UPS in the living room is large and hot, that old transformer that hangs on the garage wall is actually live and hot, that the LEDs lights we install are indeed cool, and that the seal on the no-frost fridge is sometimes cold and sometimes hot (must be some defrost cycle).

I also notices that reflection is a general problem with IR imaging. i can see an image of myself on the wall and shiny surfaces looks hotter than they are, but in other cases it is useful to measure the reflected radiation, for example, if the sun hits the floor and is reflected and hits the rest of the room, it is useful to see it directly to solve the root cause.

Again, overall I am very happy with it. Will be interesting if it can be upgraded to full resolution.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 06:46:43 pm by zapta »
 

Online zapta

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #165 on: October 19, 2013, 06:45:36 pm »
He doesn't have that many videos, mate - but it's here

Thanks neggles, it is very useful. I presume it sticks back on.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #166 on: October 19, 2013, 07:15:22 pm »
Also, the USB port is not in right angle to the camera surface which is strange when you try in insert the charger plug.
Yes - that's something I noticed, and could contribute to possible damage - at the very least it makes it a little fiddly
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Online zapta

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #167 on: October 20, 2013, 04:20:28 am »
Here are few pictures from the E4, all with the MSX mode.


The UPS in the living room. Big and hot, wasting energy even in standby mode. The small heater next to it is the cable modem.


Color laser printer in standby. Same story.


Cordless phone in the charger. Even this little bugger dissipates heat. I am sure it's wall transformer is just as hot.


Trying to estimate the amount of gas left in the BBQ tank. BBQ was not on for days. Turning it on may increase the temperature difference.


A car after casual ride on the highway. I expected the brakes to be hot but not the rubber. It's a sunny day and the car is dark but the body stayed relatively cool.


A closeup on the wheel. The break housing is hot.


The living room ceiling. The insulation in the attic has holes. Not good. This explains why it gets so hot. Need to call an insulation guy. Found one on Yelp with good reviews.


The no-frost fridge's door seal. Sometimes it is warm and sometimes not, depending on some cycle. In this picture it is clearly warm.


A fat cat enjoying the sun on the sofa.

 
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #168 on: October 20, 2013, 05:55:10 am »
Fridge door seal is warmed by the hot gas from the compressor so it does not freeze to the body. this will be hot whenever the compressor is running. Current fridge designs use the body steel of the unit as the condensing coil and thus do not have a flat plate condenser at the back, but all have had mullion heating piping for decades, or in a commercial unit will have an electric heating unit in the door to warm the seals for that purpose.
 

Offline ixfd64

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #169 on: October 20, 2013, 07:01:27 am »
There does seem to be a lot of noise in the images. I wonder if it's something that can be improved with a firmware change.

Offline neggles

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #170 on: October 20, 2013, 07:47:22 am »
There does seem to be a lot of noise in the images. I wonder if it's something that can be improved with a firmware change.

It looks to me like most of the noise occurs when the temperature lies below ambient, which could be an explanation.
 

Online mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #171 on: October 20, 2013, 08:17:12 am »
There does seem to be a lot of noise in the images. I wonder if it's something that can be improved with a firmware change.
I was told that on the i series, some noise is deliberately added - not sure way - maybe to reduce banding.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #172 on: October 20, 2013, 11:27:57 am »
I remember reading that one of the Chinese microbolometers has a peltier element behind it for cooling, or possibly temperature stabilisation.
 

Offline Strammer

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #173 on: November 11, 2013, 09:39:51 am »
Mike, do you have any experience with Flir I3? How would you compare them? Does the I3 has better macro resolution out of the box? They are in the same price range.

The i3 has been discontinued, the E4 is its replacement. The optics (and probably the sensor) are largely the same, but the E4 has the secondary visual camera for outline overlay.

Sorry - not quite true......the ix-series has NOT been discontinued...it is being sold alongside the new Ex-Series.

(It has however been removed from the catalog, so it's future is probably "uncertain" at best)

« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:09:51 am by Strammer »
 

Offline Strammer

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera review
« Reply #174 on: November 11, 2013, 09:44:55 am »
Anything that a thermal training course would tell you, you could learn by yourself just by using a TI for a couple weeks.

Mike, would that non-user-accessible port be the same as the one in the i7?

This is not true.  I am a level III thermographier and I can tell you that most of the information I learned is not available anywhere except via training.  And the training is vastly different between sources.

Agreed - I am level II and there's just NO WAY you'd "learn by yourself"....bad advice there.  Training supplied at Level II and above is not just about how the camera works (That tends to end at level 1)....most of it is advanced theory on mathematical equations and the whole physics of heat transference and behavior.  I say again - you will NOT pick this up from just "using" a thermal camera. 

The previous recommendations about what is and what isn't an "entry-level" camera were fair...it's not tool snobbery or title-addiction.  They were valid points, but perhaps not well made.  I personally would not recommend an i-series to anyone (except very basic users - school kids perhaps).  Any decent thermographer will want an E40 or E50 minimum - if only for the ability to focus properly...and it's far more likely that they'll not be using much below a T-series.  It may be that the thermographer will have an Ex or an I series as a quick spot checker...but it's not likely to be his/her primary tool.

The Ex-series are good little tools....no doubt about that (in terms of value!), but they are not the be-all and end-all and any licensed thermographer (ie insurance-company-approved and trained beyond level 1 will most likely NOT turn up to a job with an Ex-Series or below.











« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:07:13 am by Strammer »
 


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