Author Topic: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb  (Read 13319 times)

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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2023, 11:53:32 pm »
Some interesting shots of the boards.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 12:03:05 am by MrSheep »
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2023, 11:56:35 pm »
Some interesting shots of the boards. Pt 2

Very cool to see the Linear Stirling Microcooler located towards the top of the camera.

Looks like it was manufactured in 1997 by Hughes
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 11:59:54 pm by MrSheep »
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2023, 07:47:12 am »
Still a long shot but FLIR ResearchIR 4 has a selectable pixel type for the Amber Radiance 1!! (It even has selection for Amber 4128 which was their LN2 Dewar unit, as well as Phoenix cameras)

In Theory that means If I convert the 12-bit RS-422 Amber HVSB port to CameraLink, Then Camera Link to GigE it may be possible to connect to ResearchIR 4?
Would be a huge breakthrough if that is remotely possible haha.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 07:53:03 am by MrSheep »
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2023, 06:43:29 pm »
Still no dice on communicating with the Galileo. There is no response when sending this command. It could be a software thing where other programs used a different hex command.
On the radiance 1 byte 3 is 01 instead of 0a. So that might play a role.
 

Offline IR_Geek

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2023, 10:50:55 pm »
Had any more luck with the Galileo?   
 
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2023, 10:56:29 pm »
No unfortunately. Been pretty busy with other work/projects haha. I will prob get back to it after the holidays
 

Offline IR_Geek

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2023, 11:10:09 pm »
Roger that.  I've got some time off and playing around the internet archives.  I'll see what more can be dug up.    Maybe there are some cards that handle the HotLink.   Never used it but sure seemed a lot easier on the cabling.  Of course it probably wouldn't play nice with any of the FLIR capture software.

 
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2023, 11:12:12 pm »
Yeah I was looking into hotlink because it only required 2 wires rather than 20 or so pairs of RS422. But yeah it prob wouldn't play nice since FLIR usually looks for Pleora or cameralink
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2024, 12:17:18 am »
Sorry to keep you all waiting. But here is an update from where I last left off.

So after learning more about RS-232 and it's voltages and wiring I can confirm that my Galileo does communicate via RS-232.
My issue all along was that the firmware and software is very tightly linked. Also using a virtual machine is a no go. I was able to finally connect when I used my other PC with Windows 10.

I actually was able to obtain a 3rd party software from a forum member that works under windows 10. I am able to establish an active link but it freezes up sometimes.
The firmware that is running on my camera is V1.53

I actually got my hands on another Radiance HS and this one is running on 3.21 (much newer firmware). This one works perfectly with the utility.

I am wondering if there is an issue with my older camera or it just needs a firmware update. The latest firmware I was able to obtain was v1.58
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2024, 02:57:10 am »
The “Menu” software version has to match that of the cameras firmware. I believe I only have Menu Version 3 so that will not work with Camera Firmware version 1.53. I will have to check whether I have other versions of “Menu”.

I am told that the Menu software will run under “DOSbox” but I have yet to get the Menu software working with my Radiance 1 camera when running on a real DOS PC so little point in trying to do so in a DOSBox session.

From memory, the PCMCIA card in the camera contains the complete system firmware and I have managed to create a bit for bit copy of the 1MB Linear FLASH card and the copy works fine in the camera. You could try copying your 3.21 firmware onto another Linear Flash card and see whether your older camera will accept it. The calibration data resides in separate battery backed memory.

Fraser
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2024, 02:59:58 am »
Oh cool. Yeah I will try DOSbox. Unfortunately the Galileo doesn't have a PCMCIA card. I wish it did since it would be easier to upgrade the Firmware. I think the Flash is soldered onto the boards. There is a program to flash it though I have to dig through my files
 

Offline IR_Geek

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2024, 12:46:22 pm »
Yep, the Radiance 1 and Radiance HS are different in a lot of areas.    Interesting, I've never seen 1.58 in person.    Like to get a copy of that in the future if possible.   If memory serves, the standard way to upgrade the firmware is you have to talk to the camera with the current version.  Then upload the new, restart, and use the new software.

I finally picked up a Radiance 1 'shell'.  No camera inside but it does have electronics.   One of these days I'm going to have to figure out how you find these cool toys! 
 
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Online Fraser

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2024, 02:30:54 pm »
Thank you both for the information on the differences between the Radiance 1 and HS platforms. When I obtained the official “Menu” software from the Amber Senior project engineer he commented that it should work with my Radiance 1 despite containing references to the Radiance HS. He said the two camera firmwares were basically the same. Sadly I have yet to get the Radiance 1 to respond to that HS version of the software despite the the correct version (V3). Most frustrating and I need to spend some time investigating the reason for the inability to establish communications (it fails the communications check that Menu provides)

These are relatively rare cameras due to their initial purchase cost and age. It is testament to their build quality that some of them are still performing well to this day. The Amber Senior project engineer was very pleased to hear that my camera was still working well beyond its expected service life. He told me about a private project he completed a few years ago for a company that still uses an Amber Radiance cooled camera and the DFOV lens. He built them a special combined power supply, data interface and software package for controlling the lens.

With regard to finding such cameras…. All of my working cooled cameras came to me via eBay and at very good prices. Sadly times have changed since those purchases though and I see far fewer “bargains” these days and some of the cooled cameras being offered ring alarm bells with me as they are unlikely to be viable due to condition or the need for unobtainable software (ex military types). I think I just got very lucky to find the cameras that I have when they were at more hobby friendly prices. My FLIR SC4000 purchase remains the best bargain camera buy at £900 but then there was the fully functional, low hours, MWIR AGEMA THV550 for 99 pence ! That was also somewhat of a bargain  :-DD Another THV550 with a faulty EVF cost me £200 a few years ago and  that was also a great price for such a camera.

The SC4000 that I have is very unusual in that it is the expanded wavelength coverage version that covers part of the SWIR band down to 1.5um. That produces some very interesting thermal imagery through plate glass windows and opaque ceramic substrates !

Sadly my days of such exotic purchases seem to be behind me now as prices have increased considerably in recent years. I still have plenty of unusual cameras to “play” with and keep me occupied though  :-+ I have been repairing and testing modern, current model, thermal cameras in recent months. Most have come out of China and have been from various Retail price points. Sadly they are all pretty similar inside and, for me, quite boring. Almost getting to “system on a chip” levels of integration and, of course, common LWIR microbolometer technology. For me, they are less interesting as I appreciate fine engineering and love to see a nice solid metal chassis with well designed engineering within  :-+ Not much of that to be seen in modern budget microbolometer cameras…. More like “good enough” engineering at the lowest possible BOM cost ! I know I am a dinosaur with these views, but I am a happy dinosaur when working on the older cameras with their fine engineering and differing approaches to construction and electronics package :) This is why I like the Amber cameras :)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 04:37:47 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2024, 04:45:36 pm »
Yeah no problem Fraser. It seems the way they programmed these are all very device specific haha. Wish they had a little more code reusability back then. I would like to reverse engineer these programs because it seems to me they are just sending hex commands over RS232. When I have more time I will do some test. The ultimate goal is to bring these programs to modern standards. So the program can run on Mac or windows. Could be a cool project considering I went to school for computer science haha!

And yes these are rare cameras indeed. The way I see it is that finding these cameras and keeping them alive is like owning a piece of history in the infrared world. (And yes we can keep these alive, I know a person that actually services the Hughes cryocooler inside). My goal is to document these cameras more with both documentation and video on YouTube. You know these are rare when u can't find any photos or videos online about these cameras. I have only seen them in science publications in very grainy photos from the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Yeah same. This hobby is kinda of getting out of hand for me. I have a lot more to show you since I was last active on this forum. Many new cameras and lenses ranging from older pour filled LN2 cameras to more cooled cameras! I basically have the entire line from amber to indigo to flir now  ;D

Even though you may not be purchasing these cameras anymore I am gladly willing to carry that torch. I have so much to talk about and post about. Just gotta find some time to sit down and do it. And yes just like you I started out small with simple microbolometer cameras but when you get into photon detecting cooled cameras the rest is history haha. Only cooled cameras really interest me now. The design of ROIC's, how cryocoolers evolved over the years, and the exotic materials used for each wavelength range are all very fascinating.

I think for me my end goal is to complete my collection with a modern x8580. Might be a while before I do that though. Because the price of the new ones FLIR quoted were out of reach for most sane people haha:

X6980 Series
$153,800.00

X8580 Series
$159,900.00

Hard to justify considering I could buy one of my favorite Lamborghini's at that price  ;D
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 05:13:45 pm by MrSheep »
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2024, 04:59:20 pm »
And yeah the Amber cameras are build like tanks. I have yet to open my other Radiance HS but pretty sure that cryocooler is from 1996-1999. The cool down performance is insanely good and healthy. It cools down in just under 5 minutes.

I have another radiance 1 that is broken. It doesn't reach the set point temperature. Maybe time to do a teardown on it. Interested to see how everything is put together.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 05:14:46 pm by MrSheep »
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2024, 05:54:26 pm »
I have a Radiance 1 that is the opposite of yours...... a perfect cooler with excellent cool-down time....but no boot. (the cooler control is independent of the main operating system so runs even if boot fails)

It came to me without the Linear Flash card so I cloned the PCMCIA LF card that was working in my original Radiance 1. Sadly the camera still appears pretty much dead yet the processor board is powered and the IC's are generating some heat. The cloned card works in the original camera so it is not a LF card type related issue. It may just be a power rail issue but I need to reverse engineer that part of the camera to see what is going on. In a worst case scenario, the unit is a spare cooler/sensor array for my original camera. I hope to have the time to repair the camera but much depends upon the cause of the failure to boot.

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 05:56:54 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2024, 05:59:01 pm »
Hmm interesting. Yeah it is quite a mess in there. I opened the radiance 1 and there are alot of jumper wires going to places haha. I wondering if something got knocked loose. Maybe we will know more once I post the tear down photos.

The Radiance 1 didn't come with a PCMCIA card but I took the one from my original one and it booted right up. Does your fan start to spin when you turn on yours. Even without a card the camera's fan turns on. After that if it has a card in it. It will beep and the cryocooler will start up. Seems like mine is different from yours since the cryocooler won't start unless there is a card in there.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 06:01:03 pm by MrSheep »
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2024, 07:01:21 pm »
I shall have to test my faulty Radiance 1 again and check the exact start up behaviour as it is quite a while since I tested it.
Thanks for the comments on the fan and cryo cooler.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 09:57:09 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2024, 08:05:26 pm »
Yeah no problem. Hopefully we can figure it out.

Also I found a link to many of amber's products on the way back machine. Looks like there was a beefed up radiance 1 back in the day:

https://web.archive.org/web/19970710120337/http://www.amber-infrared.com:80/products.html
 

Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2024, 08:45:41 pm »
Yep, the Radiance 1 and Radiance HS are different in a lot of areas.    Interesting, I've never seen 1.58 in person.    Like to get a copy of that in the future if possible.   If memory serves, the standard way to upgrade the firmware is you have to talk to the camera with the current version.  Then upload the new, restart, and use the new software.

I finally picked up a Radiance 1 'shell'.  No camera inside but it does have electronics.   One of these days I'm going to have to figure out how you find these cool toys!

Yeah the Radiance HS I have has 3.21 on it. Seems much newer. The front of the camera says Raytheon, so this camera was prob made after amber was bought by Raytheon

Yes you are correct you have to use the current versions' utility to upload a .hex file. Then you can communicate using the new usermenu of the upgraded version
 

Offline IR_Geek

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2024, 12:30:07 am »
https://web.archive.org/web/19981205061924/http://www.amber-infrared.com/service/software.html

Looks like as of Dec 05 1998, the latest versions were:

UserMenu ... DOS based "GUI"
Radiance 1 ... v3.0
Radiance PM / 1T ... v1.61
Radiance HS ... v3.0

But were different for ImageDesk II
v3.0,  v1.61, and v1.58 respectively.    The ImageDesk versions of the controls were GUI interface within Windows.

 
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2024, 12:33:04 am »
Interesting stuff I found out. After looking at the hex file of the Galileo firmware I saw that each line contained a colon and the file ended in :00000001FF
Apparently this is Intel Hex format. I used a program called Edsim51 that was able to convert intel hex into assembly. And I think it worked?
Attached is a snippet of what I got. The assembly code is pretty long. At least we know that the .hex format of these cameras are of Intel Hex.
 
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Offline IR_Geek

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2024, 11:38:31 am »
 Excellent work.    Hopefully that leads to lots more nuggets of information.
 
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Offline MrSheepTopic starter

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2024, 04:47:32 pm »
Thanks. And yeah, after some digging in the release notes for some of the firmware found in 1.58 of usermenu I found this:

"The Galileo camera is an off-the-shelf Amber infrared product.  This release covers the embedded software that resides on the TMS320C31 DSP chip in the camera used for controlling the camera’s functions."

I had a gut feeling it was the DSP chip by TI responsible for running the firmware since it was sitting next to 4 AMD Flash chips.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 05:07:17 pm by MrSheep »
 
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Online Fraser

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Re: Amber Galileo/Radiance HS MWIR 3-5um InSb
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2024, 06:41:13 pm »
I shall have to disassemble my Radiance 1 and see how it’s hardware architecture compares to that of the Galileo platform. I am buried in other tasks at the moment though :( Maybe I can find time later this week. I am still keen to better understand why the “Menu 3” software for the Galileo HS does not work with the Radiance 1.

Fraser
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 06:54:29 pm by Fraser »
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