Author Topic: Zero span spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.  (Read 1656 times)

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Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Zero span spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« on: August 06, 2024, 11:18:16 am »
Hello, I am thinking of buying a spectrum analyzer and the main objective is to see very small signals, RBW between 0.2 Hz and 1 Hz. These resolutions are easily achieved with an SDR and this is where the problem appears: I want to see the signals also in the time domain and here things seem to get a bit complicated.

The SDR works, afaik, in FFT mode and, afaik too, you have to apply a filter to isolate the required bandwidth (in this case zero span which in reality, afaik, would be 0.2 Hz spam, 1 Hz spam or whatever spam, always logically below the SDR bandwidth). A digital 1 Hz filter is difficult to create in my opinion. On the other hand, a sweep spectrum analyzer, afaik, could easily stop the sweep and focus on a point (we would have a bandwidth equivalent to the RBW).

The problem would be buying an analyzer that works in FFT mode and that gives me problems in zero span mode

Best regards
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 09:09:09 am by xugmu »
 

Offline Andree Henkel

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2024, 11:30:54 am »
maybe you are actually looking for a "lock in amplifier"?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2024, 11:53:02 am »
While I know what zero span mode is, I have never heard of "zero spam".  Obviously not a typo.   This is spam but I don't see how it fits into showing time domain signals:

https://www.spam.com/

Offline ftg

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2024, 12:16:31 pm »
A higher end oscilloscope with good FFT like R&S MXO5.
According to it's datasheet sub-1Hz RBW's seem possible.
 

Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2024, 12:30:41 pm »
A higher end oscilloscope with good FFT like R&S MXO5.
According to it's datasheet sub-1Hz RBW's seem possible.

An oscilloscope represents, in the time domain, everything that appears at its input.

What I am suggesting, afaik, is precisely the opposite, to put it in a perhaps not very scientific way, it would be about making a bandpass filter with a bandwidth of 1 Hz and placing it before the oscilloscope.

Best regards
 

Offline gf

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2024, 12:50:30 pm »
What is the desired center frequency?
 

Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2024, 12:55:13 pm »
I usually work in the television area, between 450 MHz and 750 MHz.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2024, 02:13:43 pm »
While I know what zero span mode is, I have never heard of "zero spam".  Obviously not a typo.   This is spam but I don't see how it fits into showing time domain signals:

https://www.spam.com/

Norteamericano tenias que ser

So, prey tell, what did you mean by "spam"? Or do you want to tell us that you mis-spelled it six times in a row, could not be bothered to correct it after it was pointed out to you, and instead chose to write a snide comment?
 
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2024, 02:33:12 pm »
OP should also actually mention the problem they are trying to solve, rather than assume that 'zero spam' (which of course also makes this thread useless for others in future, because it's not as easy to google) is the way to meet their actual need. Because, with the current limited information, it sounds way easier to simply work once at baseband to recover the signal they might wish to examine.
 

Online Kim Christensen

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2024, 03:13:27 pm »
Sounds like the OP is trying to demodulate a signal within a very narrow bandwidth. Probably more of an XY problem than anything else...
 

Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2024, 06:17:46 pm »
I don't actually need to demodulate the signal. I'm just going to look at it in the time domain, the question is whether it would be better to do it in FFT analyzer mode or in sweep analyzer mode.
 

Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2024, 06:20:20 pm »

So, prey tell, what did you mean by "spam"? Or do you want to tell us that you mis-spelled it six times in a row, could not be bothered to correct it after it was pointed out to you, and instead chose to write a snide comment?




It's not that complicated to understand either. I don't speak English perfectly and I have confused spam with span.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 06:21:59 pm by xugmu »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2024, 06:58:16 pm »
You can use digital oscilloscope or digital analyzer with analog input with high enough input bandwidth and capability to record long enough continuous sample. Then you can analyze it in Octave or Matlab.

For example my SDS1102X allows to record 14 Mpts record at 1 GHz, 500 MHz, 50 MHz, 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 2 MHz, 1 MHz, 500 kHz, 200 kHz, 100 kHz, 50 kHz, 20 kHz sample rate (sample rate below 50 MHz needs to manually disable Roll mode).

RBW = SampelRate / N

where N is point count

As you can see at 10 MHz sampel rate it has RBW = 10M / 14M = 0.71 Hz.

But this is for rectangular window (or no window) function.

If you're applying some window function before FFT, it affects RBW. So it depends on your window function choice, which depends on what is more critical for you - frequency resolution or amplitude resolution.

With window function RBW = RBWrectangular * ENBWwindow.

For Kaiser window it can be estimated as: ENBWKaiser ≈ 1 + β​/2

where β​ is β​ parameter for Kaiser window, which depends on your requirements for frequency or amplitude resolution.

For example you can estimate Kaiser β parameter with this Octave function:
Code: [Select]
% Oppenheim, Schafer, "Discrete-Time Signal Processing", p.475-476.
% A - attenuation in dB
function beta = kaiserBeta(A)
  if (A >= 50)
    beta = 0.1102 * (A - 8.7);
  elseif (A < 50 && A > 21)
    beta = 0.5842 * (A - 21)^0.4 + 0.07886 * (A - 21);
  else
    beta = 0;
  end
end


PS: as you can see, there is no universal solution and it all depends on your requirements.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 07:50:59 pm by radiolistener »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2024, 07:20:47 pm »
It's not that complicated to understand either. I don't speak English perfectly and I have confused spam with span.

Yes, I figured that out. My point was that (a) you can and should correct your original post, and in particular its thread title. And (b) there was no need for the snide reply to joeqsmith. "Oops, sorry, I have corrected the typos" would have done nicely.
 

Offline gf

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2024, 07:25:35 pm »
I don't actually need to demodulate the signal. I'm just going to look at it in the time domain, the question is whether it would be better to do it in FFT analyzer mode or in sweep analyzer mode.

Neither with FFT nor with a swept SA you'll look at the signal in the time domain. They provide a frequency domain view.
 
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Offline G0HZU

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2024, 08:41:30 pm »
I'm unsure what the intended application is, but see below for a screenshot of an old Agilent SA set to zero span in sweep mode. This effectively halts the sweep.

I think this effectively uses a 1Hz (digital) RBW filter at the digital IF. The test signal being fed to the analyser at 451MHz has a regular step change in amplitude and the plot shows the response across a 50 second time frame. Despite the 1Hz RBW filter, it does a reasonable job of displaying the two level states.

Note that unless your DUT and your test gear is locked to a common frequency reference, you may find the signal from the DUT will not be at the same frequency as the analyser. With a 1Hz RBW up at 451MHz with a zero span setting, this would require very accurate and stable frequency references in the DUT and the analyser.

 
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Offline G0HZU

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2024, 09:12:06 pm »
See below for an amplitude that varies as a triangle wave. Again, the analyser does a reasonable job of displaying what is happening in the time domain when set to zero span with a 1Hz RBW. The triangle shape isn't perfect, but it's fairly close to a triangle shape.
 
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Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2024, 09:34:37 pm »
Thanks for the pictures, an old Agilent analyzer with a 1Hz resolution must have been a fairly expensive device.

The purpose of the thread was to find out the difference in the result between using zero span mode in sweep mode or in FFT mode.

The 3000 series from Siglent announces the two modes in its user manual. The 800 series from Owon, afik, does not say anything, and I get the impression that when very low resolutions are used, it uses FFT mode.

I have a TinySA (sweep) that also has zero span mode, the problem is that it is a device limited to a RBW of 200Hz.

On the other hand, I have SDRs that obtain resolutions of 0.2 Hz but use FFT mode, the reduction of the bandwidth in this case I imagine will be achieved with digital filters.With demodulation software, I have reached approximately 400 Hz of bandwidth.

Harmonics and spurious things aside, Afik a swept spectrum analyzer "should not need filters to limit the bandwidth" since its oscillator would be stopped at a frequency and the device would only let that frequency through.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2024, 09:52:43 pm by xugmu »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2024, 09:46:41 pm »
The 3000 series from Siglent announces the two modes in its user manual.
:-//
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Offline xugmuTopic starter

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2024, 09:57:35 pm »
The 3000 series from Siglent announces the two modes in its user manual.
:-//
SSA3015X Plus will need your needs.

I've read quite a bit about the 3000 series. They would be the perfect devices to solve my question: does zero span mode work better in FFT mode or in sweep mode?

That's why I'm asking here before buying, to know what I'm buying.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2024, 10:19:10 pm »
I'm a bit confused by some of the things you are saying about zero span mode. It might be worth it for you to read Keysight's classic AN-150 application note as this will explain the pros and cons of FFT vs swept modes.

I've never used the Siglent analysers, but I would be surprised if they offer a 1Hz digital RBW. This requires a very stable frequency reference and a very good LO synthesiser to make it worthwhile when in zero span mode. Lower cost analysers are going to be limited to maybe a 10Hz digital RBW when the analyser is used in swept or zero span mode.

However, I'm not convinced you actually need a 1Hz digital RBW for zero span mode unless you are doing some fairly critical analysis of a slowly changing  signal. Usually, 10Hz is adequate.

 
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2024, 10:23:30 pm »
I'm a bit confused by some of the things you are saying about zero span mode. It might be worth it for you to read Keysight's classic AN-150 application note as this will explain the pros and cons of FFT vs swept modes.

I've never used the Siglent analysers, but I would be surprised if they offer a 1Hz digital RBW. This requires a very stable frequency reference and a very good LO synthesiser to make it worthwhile when in zero span mode. Lower cost analysers are going to be limited to maybe a 10Hz digital RBW when the analyser is used in swept or zero span mode.

However, I'm not convinced you actually need a 1Hz digital RBW for zero span mode unless you are doing some fairly critical analysis of a slowly changing  signal. Usually, 10Hz is adequate.
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Offline G0HZU

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2024, 10:35:14 pm »
I'm a bit confused by some of the things you are saying about zero span mode. It might be worth it for you to read Keysight's classic AN-150 application note as this will explain the pros and cons of FFT vs swept modes.

I've never used the Siglent analysers, but I would be surprised if they offer a 1Hz digital RBW. This requires a very stable frequency reference and a very good LO synthesiser to make it worthwhile when in zero span mode. Lower cost analysers are going to be limited to maybe a 10Hz digital RBW when the analyser is used in swept or zero span mode.

However, I'm not convinced you actually need a 1Hz digital RBW for zero span mode unless you are doing some fairly critical analysis of a slowly changing  signal. Usually, 10Hz is adequate.
::)
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_07_10/SSA3000X%20Plus_DataSheet_E04G.pdf

I know that the Siglent can offer 1Hz RBW in FFT mode, but can it also offer it as a digital RBW in zero span?



 
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Online tautech

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2024, 10:52:37 pm »
I'm a bit confused by some of the things you are saying about zero span mode. It might be worth it for you to read Keysight's classic AN-150 application note as this will explain the pros and cons of FFT vs swept modes.

I've never used the Siglent analysers, but I would be surprised if they offer a 1Hz digital RBW. This requires a very stable frequency reference and a very good LO synthesiser to make it worthwhile when in zero span mode. Lower cost analysers are going to be limited to maybe a 10Hz digital RBW when the analyser is used in swept or zero span mode.

However, I'm not convinced you actually need a 1Hz digital RBW for zero span mode unless you are doing some fairly critical analysis of a slowly changing  signal. Usually, 10Hz is adequate.
::)
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_07_10/SSA3000X%20Plus_DataSheet_E04G.pdf

I know that the Siglent can offer 1Hz RBW in FFT mode, but can it also offer it as a digital RBW in zero span?
No just checked, 1 Hz RBW is only available down to a 100 Hz Span.
Zero Span provides 30 Hz RBW.
See screenshots.
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Zero spam spectrum analyzer .FFT, sweep, filters and RBW.
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2024, 11:04:54 pm »
get a older unit if you don't want spam, the new oscilloscopes and whatnot will always be bringing up some pop up advertisement about features, complaining about the RTC, etc
 


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