Why no medium priced oscilloscopes ?

[Someone]

Again, why not just give us your budget? 

Under $1000

4 channels
10/12 bits
differential input (or maybe just isolated ground)
100 MHz front end, 500 MS/sec on each channel
1 Mpts storage

Why do you think there be a product that has all these features when devices which only meet some of them sell for $2000 and up?

Tektronix TPS2000B
Rohde & Schwarz RTB2000
Picoscope 5000

To get it all you are looking at much higher prices:
Cleverscope CS448

A product price is much more than the component costs, support, R&D recovery, profit. If you think its possible to do then back it with your own investment and shake up the oscilloscope market with this fantastic new low cost product.

[egonotto]

Hello,

4 channel scope prices are about few hundred $ (Rigol DS1054Z, Siglent SDS1104X-E) and more than a million $ (Keysight UXR 110GHz).

So medium price is some 10000 $.

In higher cost scopes is the cost of component a smallish part of the cost of the scope.

Best regards
egonotto

[Fungus]

But using one of the major distributors online tools, I stumbled across the Analog Devices AD7933.  4 channels, 10 or 12 bits, 1.5 MSPS for LESS THAN $10 !

There's a big difference between 1.5 MSPS and 2 GSPS.


eg. Take a look at the AD9689 - $750 for a single channel, 2.0 GSPS ADC.

[rsjsouza]

Under $1000

4 channels
10/12 bits
differential input (or maybe just isolated ground)
100 MHz front end, 500 MS/sec on each channel
1 Mpts storage

This is very close to the Keysight DSOX1204A except for the 10/12 bits and the differential input

As others have said, lose the 10/12 bits and the built-in differential inputs and get a DS1054Z or a SDS1104X-E. Use the leftover money to buy a differential probe adapter.

No 10/12 bits, but fully differential units such as a Fluke 190-104/S are a shift-left in price. 

[2N3055]

Under $1000

4 channels
10/12 bits
differential input (or maybe just isolated ground)
100 MHz front end, 500 MS/sec on each channel
1 Mpts storage

This is very close to the Keysight DSOX1204A except for the 10/12 bits and the differential input

One option is R&S® Scope Rider RTH1014 - that will be 5000 €.
Isolated input scopes are mostly handheld these days, for specialised industrial electronics uses in the field.
I believe there is one Tektronix benchtop (TPS2000 2.5kpoints 3000-5000€), and  there is a Cleverscope that is a 14bit USB beast that will cost you 9600 USD.

You have wrong perception as how hard is to make some things and how much it is supposed to cost.
Differential inputs are handled by using differential probes on a plain vanilla scope.

More than 8 bit scopes are specialistic instruments. They are used in power electronics for instance and such (like Mosfet switching analysis for efficiency calculations and such) . Not really needed for general purpose work. So they are not mainstream, so sales volume is low, so no economy of scale. And also, it is also awkward to move around 10 bit words, to do math on 10 bit words etc.. Tricks are needed, usally just using 16Bit word width. Also doubling memory width not only needs twice the memory, but you need twice the speed for everything else, to be able to handle twice the bandwidth in the same time. So larger, more expensive FPGA.. I think you get the drift..

For 100MHz/500MS/s, under 1000USD, you have Siglent SDS 1104X-E (min 500MS/s, can be unlocked to 200MHz), and you have Rigol MSO5000 (up to 8GS/s, min 2GS/s (that one can be unlocked for full capabilities )). They both have many measurements, decoding, lots of memory (Siglent has 10s of MPoints, Rigol has 100s of Mpoints.). Rigol has all that at that price only if unlocked(hacked). Siglent somes with most of the stuff legally unlocked.
Rigol is still very new and still has teething problems, but is more powerful platform. Siglent is OTOH more mature and stable and works quite well nowadays, but smaller memory, smaller screen, slower sampling rate. It is also cheaper than Rigol, so you can get a small standalone AWG for the price difference. That you can use for quite nice  FRA app in Siglent scope.
There is also nice Micsig tablet handheld scope (nonisolated) that is very nice if you need portable (it will drop to 250MS/s with 4ch, but it does seem to handle it well).
Siglent and MicSig go all the way down to 500uV/div, with very respectable noise figures.
Rigol MSO5000 doesn't go lower than 4-5mV/div. So not so much for small signals.

That concludes sub 1000 USD offers that are good price/performance. There are other scopes but they violate your request for minimum 500 MS/s with all channels enabled.
What you would like doesn't exist, in that price range. Sorry.

[tooki]

theoldwizard1, I think you need to read more carefully:

Most modern scopes are based on jelly-bean 4-channel 1Gs/s ADCs. That's why they are cheap. For two active channels it will provide 500MS/sec. Anything better than that would cost much more due to two factors: economy of scale and cost of development.

My expertise WAS in embedded microprocessor systems so I know next to nothing about analog design.

But using one of the major distributors online tools, I stumbled across the Analog Devices AD7933.  4 channels, 10 or 12 bits, 1.5 MSPS for LESS THAN $10 !

1.5MSps is a far, far cry from 1GSps, as Fungus said. You're off by a factor of almost 700...

There are scopes with differential inputs, PicoTech makes one specifically for the automotive industry, it starts at ~1.2k. 
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4444/picoscope-4444-overview?lv

That 'scope is GROSSLY over priced !  Over $1200 !!  It is based on 15+ year old technology !  Some of the specs:

Bandwidth limit 1 MHz
USB 2.0 (which limits the continuous sample rate to 16 MS/s)
4 channel sample rate of 100 MS/s
256 MS total

No, the bandwidth is 20MHz, the 1MHz is a selectable bandwidth limiter.
It's USB 3 with a USB sample rate of 50MSps. But normally you're not streaming the samples, you're streaming the waveforms.

And as others have explained, aside from being a low-volume product, the lion's share of that unit's price premium is going into the differential inputs.

[theoldwizard1]

The scope you want doesn't exist, you're going to have to make some compromises.

I UNDERSTAND THIS !

The point is was hoping to be discussed is WHY, or what part of my requirement are so far out in "left field" ?

Is absolute "rock bottom" pricing the driving factor ?
No one sees a need for differential (or at least isolated) inputs ?
No value in 10 or 12 bits ?

[Fungus]

No one sees a need for differential (or at least isolated) inputs ?
No value in 10 or 12 bits ?

Everybody sees the need for those things. You can relax about that, you're not a lunatic.

The problem is your idea that those things can be added to a cheap oscilloscope for a couple of hundred bucks. They simply can't, you're talking about adding a few thousand $$$ more to the price tag.

It's not just theory either, if you look around that price range you'll find what you're after. They exist!

[2N3055]

The scope you want doesn't exist, you're going to have to make some compromises.

I UNDERSTAND THIS !

The point is was hoping to be discussed is WHY, or what part of my requirement are so far out in "left field" ?

Is absolute "rock bottom" pricing the driving factor ?
No one sees a need for differential (or at least isolated) inputs ?
No value in 10 or 12 bits ?

No rock bottom prices are not the factor but economies of scales are..
Many users use active differential probes. It is prefered way for both high speed and high voltage.
Isolated inputs is also used but it's niche requirement. Most of the time diff probes are enough.
And no, there is not much value in 10-12 bits for a general purpose DSO. Would it be nice. Yes. Necessary? No. So again, specialized instruments, niche market.
I have a 16bit scope. Very specialized instrument. Not much of general purpose DSO. Niche market.

[maginnovision]

The scope you want doesn't exist, you're going to have to make some compromises.

I UNDERSTAND THIS !

The point is was hoping to be discussed is WHY, or what part of my requirement are so far out in "left field" ?

Is absolute "rock bottom" pricing the driving factor ?
No one sees a need for differential (or at least isolated) inputs ?
No value in 10 or 12 bits ?

I have 2 scopes with fully isolated inputs, 2 with 10 bit adcs, and 3 with your required bandwidth. The problem is there quite literally is value with all of these things. You can't have them for free. Even the CS448 only has ±0.8V and ±8V ranges and 1M ohm 20pf inputs. Not really a general purpose scope and it requires a PC. Balancing cost and features will always be something you need to do and that hasn't changed in your lifetime so I wouldn't expect it to now. That is effectively what you're asking for and it's unreasonable.

[exe]

I have a 16bit scope.

Soundcard?

[2N3055]

I have a 16bit scope.

Soundcard?

PicoScope 4262

[thm_w]

No offense to OP, but this is a typical eevblog request thread: want more than whats currently available, for a price lower than existing products are selling for. Won't give specifics as to price/features in first post (ok did put spec request details which is very good!).

I was really excited when the Rigol MSO5000 ($1k) was released but they purposely put in a dim screen that nobody is going to want as to not eat sales away from their 7000 line.

They put a lower end screen in it, because it is a lower end oscilloscope. Its completely reasonable to not want to take sales away from higher end markets.
The brightness should be improved in the next hardware revision, but its not an issue for the majority of people who bought it already.

[Magnum]

I think they fixed the screen already. IMHO it is brighter than the DS1054Z.

[exe]

No offense to OP, but this is a typical eevblog request thread: want more than whats currently available, for a price lower than existing products are selling for.

I think this is fine . I consider equipment market as mostly b2b. In b2b pricing is quite random and usually not hobbyist-friendly. In my opinion many products are overpriced, so think other people. Nothing wrong in sharing this .

In this particular case it may be not obvious why, say, 10bit costs more than 8bit. It's  "just 25% bits more", right? So, price should be just 25% bigger . As we figured out, it doesn't work this way, unfortunately.

Also, prosumers like giving feedback. Like, oscilloscopes with dim screen. A potential buyer may be willing to pay $5-20 extra to not suffer from it (idk how much it would be to fix it). Again, it's just a feedback, and not unreasonable one. I don't think an argument "it's a cheap scope, should have cheap screen, stop complaining" is "stronger" than "save my eyes, screens are cheap".

[maxwell3e10]

No one mentioned Owon XDS scopes https://owontechnology.eu/oscilloscopes.html
They have 12 or 14 bits resolution (although at smaller sampling rates) and often come with built-in battery for isolated operation. I also like the relatively big screen.

[theoldwizard1]

No one mentioned Owon XDS scopes https://owontechnology.eu/oscilloscopes.html
They have 12 or 14 bits resolution (although at smaller sampling rates) and often come with built-in battery for isolated operation. I also like the relatively big screen.

Dave did a review and a tear down of the XDS3202A awhile ago.  Not exactly the best rating, but the idea of having a user selectable 8/12/14 bit resolution (and it looks like they display the sample rate), IMHO, is a GOOD idea !

The XDS3204E drops the sample rate a lot when you go from 8 to 12 to 14 bits (four channels; 500/250/100 MS/s).  I don't know how you call that a 200 MHz scope, certainly not at 14 bits !

The price is about what I would expect ($900US).

[tooki]

First of all, the bandwidth spec is the bandwidth of the analog front end. The relationship between analog bandwidth and sampling rate is an issue unto itself. So no, you can’t get uppity about this.

Owon is completely clear about the sampling rate vs sample bit depth. The datasheets for the >8 bit models are very clear about the maximum bandwidth and sample rate at a given bit depth and number of channels.

Note that not all models in the XDS series are greater than 8 bit!! The 3204E is not among them, it’s 8 bit only. No idea where you’re getting the specs you’re claiming.

[Neomys Sapiens]

A very important influence on the pricing of such instruments is EXPECTED USAGE. What does one want a 'scope with isolated inputs for? Right - measuring across large potential differences, at high potentials etc. In this case, there are severe safety requirements and the associated rat tail of verification. Those devices exist to be used utilizing their full capability and it is regarded as not helpful for sales once pictures of a manufacturer's scope appear with a large sooty smudge with a nametag in front of it.

The point about the scopes with more than 8 bit has already been argued. And seeing a ADC with nice specs is quite meaningless unless you have the time, knowledge and resources to build the necessary frontend around it. (to say nothing of the other end, where the data goes and is processed). It is still a very special discipline of electronics and this is where all the cheap scopes lose the value of their ADCs faster than you can say step response.
While I have worked with high power and voltage a lot and have absolutely no problem to do so, in my private lab I have made the compromise of using external isolation probes. I'm trying to get better ones, and there is stil some room for improvement. When on a job, I expect the specialist stuff to be furnished. If not, it can be rent. So I am doing well with a 2Gs/s 4ch DSO of prime quality (used) and a digital and analogue backup/portable and a isolated small handheld.

[Mr Nutts]

I have a 16bit scope. Very specialized instrument. Not much of general purpose DSO. Niche market.

What make and model is this 16 bit scope if you don’t mind me asking?  Is this an USB scope?

I don’t know of any 16 bit bench scopes 

[tautech]

I have a 16bit scope. Very specialized instrument. Not much of general purpose DSO. Niche market.

What make and model is this 16 bit scope if you don’t mind me asking?  Is this an USB scope?

I don’t know of any 16 bit bench scopes 

I have a 16bit scope.

Soundcard?

PicoScope 4262