Why did Tektronix stop making the great scopes?

[Wuerstchenhund]

What specifically do the high end Lecroy scopes offer that is unique? 

For example, highly advanced maths and signal analysis capabilities which generally exceed what you can find in Agilent/Keysight and Tek scopes. And this is even true for older LeCroy scopes.

LeCroy is also the only manufacturer that offers stuff like a 100GHz real-time scope (Agilent/Keysight only do 63GHz, and Tek is still stuck at 33GHz). They are also the only company offering scopes with up to 80 channels (at 36GHz) or 40 channels (50GHz):
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=390

Admittedly their low end offerings (rebranded Siglent scopes) suck but their midrange scopes are top-notch, and their highend is different than what other vendors consider "highend".

(I don't know the brand at all.)

They're not as mainstream as Tek or Agilent/Keysight, but LeCroy has always been considered "the Mercedes amongst scopes". Their origin is high power physics and there are some conceptual differences in their scopes, but the analysis capabilities in LeCroy scopes is and always has been second to none. Their other advantage is their long-term support (any scope is fully supported for 7 years after end of production, and on a "best effort" basis after that; LeCroy even repairs the old 9300 Series for which production was stopped in 1998!).

[Alex Eisenhut]

LeCroy has always been considered "the Mercedes amongst scopes".

Does that mean the electrical systems start crapping out after 18 months? Not something I'd want in a scope...

[Rupunzell]

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics. If there is a lack of understanding of how it works, basic problem like why a simple voltage regulator IC does not work.

As for "modern" complex signals and systems, what are the very basic foundations upon these complex signals made from?

It is easy to be critical of stuff one does not understand with no interest when the topic is out of their expertise, yet the very foundations of modern electronics is built upon these foundations.


Bernice

And as a teching tool, serious? Unless you want to train museum curators the idea of using a 547 or 465 for teching EEs is bonkers. These scopes tech them very little that is relevance to a job as EE in 2015, these boat anchors are useless dealing with any of the complex signals modern technology works with. Using them as teaching tools would be a huge dis-service to your students because the time wasted on teaching how life was in the 60's could have been used for actually useful stuff like how digital scopes work, what their limits are and how to employ them for signal analysis. It may be nice for a short demo on how life was back then but that's about it.

The price one pays for smaller, lighter, portable and all that (modern DSO) comes with a cost and it is not initially apparent.

What price? Not buring 1kW for a primitive 50MHz scope which takes 20mins to stabilize to become usable? Not having mechanical switches which corrode and fail over time? Not having to re-adjust tons of analog trimmers and potentiometers to compensate for the shift due to aging (something modern DSOs compensate for automatically through self-adjustment)? Not needing to hunt for obsolete components which are out of production for decades? Not having to guess what the signal parameters are because the modern scopes can actually analyze it?

I'm honeslty curious, what is this non-apparent price one pays for modern scopes you're talking about?

I'm still using a tek 7104 at work, there is nothing modern that can replace it for the work I'm doing.

No offense, but unless your work is fixing vintage scopes or doing some simple analog audio work this says much more about you being stuck in the past than about the qualities of the 7000 Series.

[Wuerstchenhund]

LeCroy has always been considered "the Mercedes amongst scopes".

Does that mean the electrical systems start crapping out after 18 months? Not something I'd want in a scope...

I'm pretty sure that's not what is meant. It also doesn't mean the bodywork will start corrode within the first 2 years and that you'll need a new door or hood after 4 years 

[LabSpokane]

LeCroy has always been considered "the Mercedes amongst scopes".

Does that mean the electrical systems start crapping out after 18 months? Not something I'd want in a scope...

I'm pretty sure that's not what is meant. It also doesn't mean the bodywork will start corrode within the first 2 years and that you'll need a new door or hood after 4 years 

At least you didn't call it the Jaguar of scopes, because then I'd ask you if it had a glove box for all the knobs that fell off.

Thanks for the insight.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics. If there is a lack of understanding of how it works, basic problem like why a simple voltage regulator IC does not work.

As for "modern" complex signals and systems, what are the very basic foundations upon these complex signals made from?

It is easy to be critical of stuff one does not understand with no interest when the topic is out of their expertise, yet the very foundations of modern electronics is built upon these foundations.

It seems the lack of understanding is on your side if you believe that one needs an antique analog scope to understand what's going on, or that knowledge about 60's technology makes one an expert about analog stuff. Believe it or not but around the world skilled EEs have no problem developing complex analog systems without using one of your antiques. In fact, modern DSOs allow EEs to see stuff you'll never ever know is there with your analog boatanchors (try a modern SMPS for a start).

I'm sorry but all I see in your posts is the rambling of someone who seems to be stuck in the 60's and who is incapable to make the jump to the modern day (this is actually not a rare phenomenon btw, I see that quite often with older engineers who stuck at what they learnt in their youth, neve followed changes in technology and eventually become frightened by how the world has changed around them). You're mumbling about how great the 500 Series was and that there's a price to pay with modern scopes, but so far you have not explained what you think that price is or what you believe are the problems are with modern scopes.

BTW: it would be great if you could take a bit more care with how you quote because so far it looks retarded.

[LabSpokane]

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics.

I love to read the old Bell Labs journals as much as anyone, but One of my biggest gripes to my alma mater is how antiquated our curriculum was. EE history is great and fascinating, but higher ed needs to focus on preparing students for the modern age.  We can talk about EE yesteryear in an engineering history course that replaces some BS core curriculum requirement.

Students need modern tools.

[Wuerstchenhund]

At least you didn't call it the Jaguar of scopes, because then I'd ask you if it had a glove box for all the knobs that fell off.

Funny that you mention knobs, falling off knobs was a typical LeCroy illness with their older scopes (9300 Series, LC, WaveRunner 1 LT) 

[Rupunzell]

Laws of Physics has changed?

This is not about 60's technology, this is about understanding at the most basic level which is often taken for granted.

Does modern tools mean students no longer need to understand the very basic foundations of how their technology works with these modern tools doing the work for them?

What is not understood here is how problems are solved  and the total lack of appreciation of how problems can be solved in an effective and creative way.

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics. If there is a lack of understanding of how it works, basic problem like why a simple voltage regulator IC does not work.

As for "modern" complex signals and systems, what are the very basic foundations upon these complex signals made from?

It is easy to be critical of stuff one does not understand with no interest when the topic is out of their expertise, yet the very foundations of modern electronics is built upon these foundations.

It seems the lack of understanding is on your side if you believe that one needs an antique analog scope to understand what's going on, or that knowledge about 60's technology makes one an expert about analog stuff. Believe it or not but around the world skilled EEs have no problem developing complex analog systems without using one of your antiques. In fact, modern DSOs allow EEs to see stuff you'll never ever know is there with your analog boatanchors (try a modern SMPS for a start).

I'm sorry but all I see in your posts is the rambling of someone who seems to be stuck in the 60's and who is incapable to make the jump to the modern day (this is actually not a rare phenomenon btw, I see that quite often with older engineers who stuck at what they learnt in their youth, neve followed changes in technology and eventually become frightened by how the world has changed around them). You're mumbling about how great the 500 Series was and that there's a price to pay with modern scopes, but so far you have not explained what you think that price is or what you believe are the problems are with modern scopes.

BTW: it would be great if you could take a bit more care with how you quote because so far it looks retarded.

[Ecklar]

[


If you're really curious spend some time at the on-line tek museum photo and video gallery as there are quite a number of historically significant films available there.
http://www.vintagetek.org/video-gallery/

I'm still using a tek 7104 at work, there is nothing modern that can replace it for the work I'm doing.


Bernice

That website has really good historical info.  If I lived in that area I'd for sure go to the museum and meet the guys running it.   Meanwhile, I'm running thru the videos and stuff. Very interesting.  TY

[xrunner]

Why did Tektronix stop making scopes like the venerable 2465 or 2465B?   What changed? 

It's amazing how companies that at one time had leading edge technology can stagnate and falter, but it happens throughout history. Tektronix, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation), Kodak ... on and on.

They get big and fat and slow and lose vision. There's always somebody waiting in the wings with the ability to beat them with new concepts and ideas.

[tautech]

Why did Tektronix stop making scopes like the venerable 2465 or 2465B?   What changed? 

It's amazing how companies that at one time had leading edge technology can stagnate and falter, but it happens throughout history. Tektronix, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation), Kodak ... on and on.

They get big and fat and slow and lose vision. There's always somebody waiting in the wings with the ability to beat them with new concepts and ideas.

There is an old saying: Every dog has it's day. (no reference to Tek)
Us older ppl have seen brands come and go, some are lucky enough to re-invent themselves, but why any think a name change could help in that regard escapes me. 
There are literally thousands of examples of this in all facets of industry.

[T3sl4co1l]

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics.

I love to read the old Bell Labs journals as much as anyone, but One of my biggest gripes to my alma mater is how antiquated our curriculum was. EE history is great and fascinating, but higher ed needs to focus on preparing students for the modern age.  We can talk about EE yesteryear in an engineering history course that replaces some BS core curriculum requirement.

Students need modern tools.

Did you learn the Routh–Hurwitz method?  Most useless POS I ever learned in a class, and willfully forgot immediately after.

Tim

[LabSpokane]

Like it or not, all that analog stuff is the foundation of all electronics.

I love to read the old Bell Labs journals as much as anyone, but One of my biggest gripes to my alma mater is how antiquated our curriculum was. EE history is great and fascinating, but higher ed needs to focus on preparing students for the modern age.  We can talk about EE yesteryear in an engineering history course that replaces some BS core curriculum requirement.

Students need modern tools.

Did you learn the Routh–Hurwitz method?  Most useless POS I ever learned in a class, and willfully forgot immediately after.

Tim

That and how to synchronize phases onto the grid using three incandescent lamps. God forbid any mention of sychroscopes or synchrophasors be uttered, lest one suffer the eternal wrath of the prof.

Glory days...

[HighVoltage]

Something really good, that came out of this thread is the link to the Tek museum pages.

http://www.vintagetek.org/video-gallery/

I had no idea that Tektronix had made so many great educational videos in the 60'
Thanks for this great info.

[Rupunzell]

Why, it is a matter of management and specific individuals involved and changes in market demand.

Tektronix began to seriously un-wind after Danaher took over an began to run it like any other organization taken over via LBO. Soon as this happened, Tek's best individuals began to leave to start other other companies. Adding to this problem is the way Danaher cut personal, cut cost and made management choices for product offering. No cutting edge technology company can survive without specific intellectual talent.
http://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/index.ssf/2012/12/tektronix_five_years_after_sal.html

LeCroy got a boost after they settled their legal dispute with Tektronix over specific patents and intellectual property. This allowed LeCroy to move on and grow to what they have become today.
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/lecroy-corporation-history/

Danaher is just one example of how greed drive investor types have completely changed the world economy. They do not value innovation, technically gifted individuals and technical innovation or the future of companies or individuals they control. It is much about short term returns for their investors.

Kodak invented the digital camera in 1975, yet Kodak management choose not to develop this technology as it as viewed as a threat to their mahogany row management who was deeply vested in film. Kodak got into the magnetic tape business later than they should, while their product was good, their marketing and inept management doomed this effort to expand into other markets. Much the same applied to Kodak's copier business. Specific Key individual responsible for these technologies often move on to either start their own business or become key individuals at other established companies.

Ampex was another Mahogany-row, Glass-place-inept management style company that spawned more than a few companies. Key individuals who got fed-up with Ampex management simply moved on and started their own. Memorex, IVC, Macrovision, and others were a product of abuse-inept management at Ampex.

Fairchild semiconductor which began with the traitorous eight died again from Mahogany-row-inept-abusive-greedy east coast management. Intel, National Semi and others are a product of key individuals leaving Fairchild Semi.

For those who might be interested in what has happened to American industry and why once great companies can go so very wrong, this book, "When The Machine Stopped." By Max Holland is a must read.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-26/books/bk-741_1_machine-tool-industry


There was a time when Tek was a very different company, a company that fostered creativity innovation and tried to build the very best product possible with lasting and real value. This why lessons within vintage Tektronix instruments like the 547 are so very important. While more than a few here appear to view the 547 as a technological extinct and useless dinosaur, few here appears to appreciate the company environment, the individuals who were allowed to express their creativity and encouraged to do their very best work in design and production of Tek offerings. As mentioned before, has the laws of Physics changed since the Tek 547?

Compare the Tek 547 to the mass produced, lunch box DSO so very common today (mass produced, disposable not really repairable, commodity based products) what are the real differences beyond electrical specifications? How many here know a 574 will trigger out past 200 Mhz due to it's tunnel diode triggering circuits with a vertical BW spec of 50 Mhz? How many are really aware of the inherent limitations of DSOs? They both have their place and both technologies can complement each other as analog-vs-digital is not a contest.

In the current world of technology where the past of what has been accomplished is expected to be "obsolete" and replaced with what appears to be an improvement, the foundation for what appears to be innovation is not always appreciated. There is a so much more to all this technology business than just intellect and innovation, there is a humanity factor and historical factor that is often NOT appreciated.

Howard Vollum & Jack Murdock wanted Tektronix to remain a small company, they did not intend for Tektronix to become the technological and industrial giant it became. With this in mind, both Howard and Jack encouraged Tektronix employees to start their own companies using Tektronix as a foundation. The results of this became what is known as the "Silicon Forest" in Oregon.
http://www.pdx.edu/sites/www.pdx.edu.ims/files/ims_siliconforestuni2.jpg


It is myopic in the extreme to judge a company on just their product offerings, as what they do for the community and society they live in says much about who the founders and management of any specific company.

And yes, I'm extremely offended by those who labeled me a "Retard", these words posted also says much about the individual who wrote that word.


Bernice






   

[SoundTech-LG]

It's probably useless, and a huge waste of valuable time to try to defend yourself in here. Much better to ignore, and concentrate on the good. Let them find someone else to pick on. Don't make yourself a target.

[Rupunzell]

Within this reply are many of the reasons why the current electronics industry has the problems it does today.

Kinda sad, really.


Bernice

It's probably useless, and a huge waste of valuable time to try to defend yourself in here. Much better to ignore, and concentrate on the good. Let them find someone else to pick on. Don't make yourself a target.

[T3sl4co1l]

While Danaher was no doubt responsible for their decline, it was a trend well before that sealed the deal.  Can you explain their unwieldy design changes in the early TDS series?

Or perhaps a better question: does anyone know if the TDS series was consistent with their interface design methodology historically?  Are the big mainframes as clunky to drive?  What about their monitors, printers, computers and other assorted computer and aerospace related equipment?

Tim

[coppice]

However, the reality is that printers were more or less loss-leaders, and that Tek couldn't really compete with companies like HP who flooded the market with cheap and reliable laser printers and later also with more advanced ink jets. That's why Tek's printer business was sold off in 1999, only about 13 years after they started it, while the T&M part lives on for almost 70 years. This shows pretty clear which part of Tek was bringing in the bacon.

Tek made printers for a lot longer than that. Its only the colour printer business which was 13 years old in 1999. When Tek 4010 an 4014 graphics displays became the standard for CAD at the end of the 70s, Tek made hard copy printers to go with them. For example the 4631, which would rapidly print an image directly from the storage screen of the graphics terminal, using a dry silver paper technology. Tektronix moved in and out of several computer peripheral areas before the phasor printer business began. As with their T&M business, their big sales were in defence, and if defence customers wanted some computer related stuff they looked seriously at making it.

[N2IXK]

The Tek 4631 "Hard Copy Unit" used a technology that Tek was well versed in--the CRT. They used a strange looking flattened CRT with a fiber optic faceplate (made by Tek, of course) as a sort of line scan array to directly record the image onto the photosensitive paper.

[coppice]

The Tek 4631 "Hard Copy Unit" used a technology that Tek was well versed in--the CRT. They used a strange looking flattened CRT with a fiber optic faceplate (made by Tek, of course) as a sort of line scan array to directly record the image onto the photosensitive paper.

I don't remember there being any fibre optics involved, but it was s single line green phosphor screen pressed tightly against a sheet of photosensitive paper, which slide past to make a 2D image. It took a few seconds per page, and gave very good resolution - it matched the 4k x 3k resolution of the screens. This was the main graphics printer of its day.

Tektronix made XY plotters, full computer versions of the 4010 and 4014 graphics terminals (the 4051 and 4052), and many other computer related bits and pieces through the 70s and 80s. The colour printers were certainly not taking them into a whole new area.

I think the 4051 and 4052 were mostly a response to the momentum HP were getting with the HPIB/GPIB, offering a reasonably compact basic programmable machine to control instruments. After that point a serious T&M maker couldn't really divorce themselves from the world of computers.

[photon]

For those who might be interested in what has happened to American industry and why once great companies can go so very wrong, this book, "When The Machine Stopped." By Max Holland is a must read.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-26/books/bk-741_1_machine-tool-industry
Bernice

The book is a great read. Also, an online article by the same author is here:
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/phil_oreilly_re.html

The machine tool industry is the subject. A company called Houdaille bought up a number of smaller machine tool companies in the 1960's. By 1979 the CEO of Houdaille and a handful of executives decided to take the unbelievably sweet deal offered by the justly infamous financial LBO comany KKR. It made these few executives and KKR extremely wealthy at the expense of the engineers and machinists who had built the company and who got zero.

[Wuerstchenhund]

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/lecroy-corporation-history/

Interesting article, although a I don't think that in 1996 a scope like the LeCroy 9384 (a 1Ghz 4GSa/s 8Mpts scope) ever qualified as "mid-range". I'm not sure even Tek had anything that came close to it (a scope that aside from the specs offered very advanced maths and analysis, even for specialty applications like hard disk analysis).

And yes, I'm extremely offended by those who labeled me a "Retard", these words posted also says much about the individual who wrote that word.

I said your quoting is retarded, and it is. It's like you take a dump on other people's dinner table and then feel offended when you're called out for it.

[Rupunzell]

To gain a proper understanding of what happened to Tektronix one needs to study and learn about how this legal dispute between Tektronix and LeCroy was resolved and how it affected both companies. The legal ramifications has little to do with if the LeCroy 9384 is current. There continues to be a failure to see and understand beyond the obsession of current offerings which are very much products of a companies history, business-managment practices and specific individuals who invented and originated the intellectual property.

Focusing purely on what is current and most modern will NEVER allow a full and deep understanding of any companies current products. To learn, understand and appreciate that requires studying history. This means learning about who were directly involved with the companies founding, what they created, how the products they introduced affected the market, what the market climate was like, what the social-cultrual environment was like at the time, business practices and a LOT more.

Like it or not, the vast majority of time domain instrument operation and theory of operation are based on the basic frame work and foundations created by Tektronix decades ago. aka, Tektronix 500 series.

When YOU label an individual as a "Retard" YOU are committing an act of verbal and abusive violence upon that individual. The lack of understating appears to stem from wanting to see things the way you would like to see, hear and read it. Rejecting and discounting what has been presented to you as bunk as what was presented did not fit your expectations. It was not even worth your effort to gain any understanding of what was written.

All of which says much about who you really.


Bernice

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/lecroy-corporation-history/

Interesting article, although a I don't think that in 1996 a scope like the LeCroy 9384 (a 1Ghz 4GSa/s 8Mpts scope) ever qualified as "mid-range". I'm not sure even Tek had anything that came close to it (a scope that aside from the specs offered very advanced maths and analysis, even for specialty applications like hard disk analysis).

And yes, I'm extremely offended by those who labeled me a "Retard", these words posted also says much about the individual who wrote that word.

I said your quoting is retarded, and it is. It's like you take a dump on other people's dinner table and then feel offended when you're called out for it.