Which HDMI Microscope Camera and Zoom Lens for soldering

[pcprogrammer]

Can you tell something about latency? I have one Eakins with a panasonic 1080p sensor that has no perceptible latency at all. Then I worked with a Hayear 4k (with Sony sensor  ) setup that was only set to 1080p and latency was not terrible but also not really good.

Of course latency has more to do with the image processor than with the sensor manufacturer - but I think it´s one of the key features for a soldering microscope.

I will have to do some tests, but it does not feel to bad. It of course is based on my perception as I do not have tools nor experience in measuring the actual latency.

[Phil1977]

Does it feel not bad or not perceptible? I´m really quite astonished by the Eakins, I didn't measure it either, but at least I do not feel any delay, movements on the screen look nearly as smooth and instantaneous as with an optical setup.

(And it´s sensitivity is more than enough for a microscope. Most of the time the ring-light is not even needed to get good image quality. But I really don't want to discuss this, I'll just ignore further comments on this.)

[Postal2]

....(And it´s sensitivity is more than enough for a microscope. Most of the time the ring-light is not even needed to get good image quality. But I really don't want to discuss this, I'll just ignore further comments on this.) ...

Your reluctance to discuss will not prevent me from commenting. I can also say that my shitty camera has good sensitivity. But I don't want to make fools of anyone. If you want to achieve acceptable depth of field, then the sensitivity is not enough.

[PlainName]

Just popping it to say I have a pair of HDMI microscope cameras, one auto-focus and one not, one on an optical microscope and one standalone as here, and so far as I can tell the thing that makes the quality good or bad is typically the monitor. My microscope one feeds a small 12" monitor and is not very good - no HDR so gradual transitions of shade don't exist and shadows (or glare) that really aren't that bad turn into black holes (or white ones!). The same make camera feeding a BenQ 22" is much, much better in that respect, and not so much care has to be taken with the lighting.

[eleguy]

I have been pretty happy with Andonstar AD407. However, if buying now for the same use case I would some likely pick AD409 "Max" in order to get more working distance. The bonus(?) here is that you can solder also without external monitor as these come with screen. This works better for me as I dont have to turn my head while seeing the whole board or the small area that has been zoomed by the microscope.

[Sorama]

I got an Adonstar 409max since this week and although the picture quality is more than good, the magnification is too much as in the overview of the DUT is very, very small.

Putting the camera higher makes it hard to follow on the display as it is then (way) above my head.

I have been asking if there exists a Barlow lens but that does not as the diameter of the camera is different from what exists in Barlow lenses.

Once I have a better monitor, I’ll try with the hdmi connector.

[Postal2]

I found the right microscope that I wanted (and want) to buy.
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005006778425225.html

[pcprogrammer]

I'm using a 24 inch iiyama PL2483H monitor directly connected to the HDMI output of the camera.

The motion on the screen feels smooth and instantaneous. When focused on the PCB I can put my finger on it sideways and on the tip of the finger the print is sharp, but the top side starts to blur a bit. But with an ic the depth perception is good enough to read the writing on the IC and still see the traces on the PCB.

All in all for me it will be a great improvement over the stand alone 7 inch one I used before. Attached is a picture of what that looks like with a RPI PICO.

And the same PICO under the new one. Even with the whole board on screen it still is big enough to work on. See the watchmakers Philips screwdriver tip near the RP2040. Also notice the difference in height between the two cameras.

[Postal2]

I see in the Eakins store that the cameras I need are made on the IMX385 sensor. However, I am interested in the one with autofocus, it is 2 times more expensive. Externally, the cameras are the same, but without autofocus the power supply is 5 volts, and with autofocus - 12 volts.

Actually, I like cheap solutions if they solve the problem. Unfortunately, in the case of the microscope, everything depends on the sensor. I have already tried cheap solutions, and I do not understand the enthusiasm about this junk.

[PlainName]

Autofocus is a double-edged sword. For PCB work I couldn't get on with it, but for other stuff it is useful. Main issue I had was if, say, your soldering iron or tweezers got in the target for autofocus then the thing you're actually trying to see (the PCB) is out of focus but the view of your tweezers is great!

Also, and not sure if it's just this camera or all of them in general, when turning on initially it would go to one end of the focus range and stick there until something it could latch onto persuaded it that was the wrong end. Not end of the world but irritating.

[Postal2]

Autofocus is a double-edged sword. For PCB work I couldn't get on with it, ....

Your camera is different. As for the Eakins IMX385 sensor camera, I have seen videos of it in action. No other camera comes close to what I have seen.

[PlainName]

Triply impressive that you know what my camera is despite my not giving any details, that you believe the demo videos aren't designed to show the very best that can be achieved in perfect circumstances, and you've used every other camera available.

[Postal2]

I don't understand why some people are used to assuming that the opponent is a fool. Of course, I know about the video, and I didn't watch what they showed me, but what interested me.

The presence of autofocus will allow me to turn various knobs twice less often, which will save time, and I am ready to pay for this. But I haven’t paid yet.

[PlainName]

I don't understand why some people are used to assuming that the opponent is a fool

That's your problem, I think. I saw you as someone that might appreciate hearing some actual experience of autofocus for real work. It is you that thinks 'opponent'. I wasn't even arguing since there was nothing to argue about, just showing that the grass isn't always greener over there.

So instead of taking that onboard and saying, if anything needed to be said, something like "Oh, thanks, I'll bear that in mind" you instead trash it based on my choice of camera (hint - autofocus isn't based on sensor type) despite not know what it is. And then note that the Eakins will be the answer to everything and has no faults.

Seriously, and since you seem to run up against an awful lot of 'opponents' here, I would suggest it's your attitude, or at least the way you present posts, that's the problem.

[Postal2]

I meant "opponent" - this is "interlocutor".
I know about the autofocus issues, and at first I wanted to save money by looking at a camera without it, since it was cheaper. Then I watched a video of the rotating side-view lens on this camera, which had autofocus. The autofocus worked so well that I decided not to buy without it.

[pcprogrammer]

I did some more "tests" with the microscope to see what the magnifications are.

The in the sales add mentioned x150 for the lens is actually correct. At a distance of ~5.5 cm from the PCB the magnification is near 150. (1mm in real life measures as ~150mm on the screen) The lens is then turned to its extreme, and the camera height needs to de adjusted to make the image sharp.

On the other end of the lens setting the pole of the stand is to short to get a good image, and going on the sales add the distance has to be a meter for a x1 image.

At the top of the pole, with the lens at a distance of about 50cm from the PCB the magnification is just over 7. (10mm in real life measures as ~70mm on the screen)

So to get a good image at a certain magnification the height of the lens has to be set and then the lens has to be tuned to make the image sharp. For a soldering job you probably do this only once at the start of the job, and maybe readjust to later inspect the work.

For close up the LED ring works better than the two swan necked LED lights, but the mounting is a bit flaky near the end of the lens. Not sure if I will be using that often. Also the fit of the swan necked lights on the base is not that solid. It needs something extra between the clip to make it firm.

A magnification of 7 to 15 works very well for soldering, at least for me, just by what I have seen so far. Have to do an actual soldering job though.

I don't think that a camera with a Sony sensor will provide a much better result. I feel it depends much more on the quality of the lens, and as a hobbyist this one is good enough. Maybe when you have to solder day in and day out and make a living with it, it could be justified to spend 5 or 6 times as much money.

As a final note, if you like it to be a bit cheaper, you can consider one with a x1 - x130 lens, since you most likely won't be needing the extra magnification.

[PlainName]

Can you not get a zoom lens? That would save you having to move it up and down the pole (although you might still need to play with focus).

[pcprogrammer]

Can you not get a zoom lens? That would save you having to move it up and down the pole (although you might still need to play with focus).

I'm not an expert on lenses and cameras, but is the lens I have now not a zoom lens going from x1 to x150 and is sliding along the pole just adjusting the focal point?

But like I wrote, most of the time it will just sit at a fixed height to do soldering jobs. With a magnification of 10 it already allows for a good inspection of the soldering joint and still have a large part of the PCB in view.

[PlainName]

No, a zoom lens will adjust the magnification via a ring. You focus by moving it up and down a rack, but only a little bit. More expensive ones have the focus and magnification as rings - just like you get on a camera (you don't walk towards or away from your subject to focus those!).

[Phil1977]

You can buy both types of macro lenses.

The prime lens type with fixed focal length but adjustable focus does its job as pcprogrammer has described. The other zoom-type does it as mentioned by PlainName. Unfortunately the sales people at Aliexpress or co often neglect correct terminology.

One thing to mention: The image quality of the cheap prime lenses is often much better than of cheap zoom lenses. The highest magnification with the prime lens has a very small distance but often astonishingly good sharpness. The sharpness at the highest zoom level of these entry level microscope lenses is often compromised.

[Feuerbard]

Anyone tried 3d hdmi microscope ?

https://youtu.be/CGgf_B2hzSM

[thm_w]

We have Eakins IMX334 and IMX307 autofocus, both are claimed 1080P 60FPS. Autofocus was absolutely worth the $65 difference in price between the two.
- IMX334 130ms latency
- IMX307 60-70ms latency

Monitor is going to be ~10-30ms of that total.
I would never use these for soldering personally. If you want to sit up straight you can get an ergo microscope or a mantis. But its not as cheap.

Anyone tried 3d hdmi microscope ?
https://youtu.be/CGgf_B2hzSM

This is for inspection only, no use for soldering at all.

[pcprogrammer]

No, a zoom lens will adjust the magnification via a ring. You focus by moving it up and down a rack, but only a little bit. More expensive ones have the focus and magnification as rings - just like you get on a camera (you don't walk towards or away from your subject to focus those!).

The lens I have uses a ring to adjust what I think is the zoom (magnification) but can only become sharp at the correct height needed for the set magnification. To do both magnification and focus at the same height it would indeed require two rings on the lens.

You can buy both types of macro lenses.

The prime lens type with fixed focal length but adjustable focus does its job as pcprogrammer has described. The other zoom-type does it as mentioned by PlainName. Unfortunately the sales people at Aliexpress or co often neglect correct terminology.

One thing to mention: The image quality of the cheap prime lenses is often much better than of cheap zoom lenses. The highest magnification with the prime lens has a very small distance but often astonishingly good sharpness. The sharpness at the highest zoom level of these entry level microscope lenses is often compromised.

But reading the above suggests the lens to have adjustable focus? This would mean that the magnification is based on the height. Have to study the theory on lenses again to refresh what I learned about them.

At the shortest focus able distance the image does look quite sharp and is magnified ~150 times.

Even if the terminology in the sales ad would have been correct I would not have understood the meaning of it without research. 

We have Eakins IMX334 and IMX307 autofocus, both are claimed 1080P 60FPS. Autofocus was absolutely worth the $65 difference in price between the two.
- IMX334 130ms latency
- IMX307 60-70ms latency

Monitor is going to be ~10-30ms of that total.

No idea what the perceivable latency is for the human eye. Hearing can be as fast as 5ms (real sharp musicians can detect shifts in notes with that kind of delay) With old movies at 25 frames per second (40ms) it is already seen as smooth, so triple that should be noticeable, but with my setup I don't have a problem when moving something under the lens to position it where it needs to be. The shacking on my hand is more of a problem.  At 60 years old it is definitely not as stable as it was 30 or 40 years ago.

I would never use these for soldering personally. If you want to sit up straight you can get an ergo microscope or a mantis. But its not as cheap.

A friend of mine has a microscope with eye pieces and to me that felt very uncomfortable and still required bending the head forward a bit. The benefit of it being stereo made not that big a difference for me. It will be a matter of getting used to it.

And yes the mantis would be perfect, but at more then 10 times the price of what I have now, way to expensive for a hobbyist like me.

[Postal2]

We have Eakins IMX334 and IMX307 autofocus, both are claimed 1080P 60FPS. ...

IMX385 claimed 120 Hz speed (sensor speed) and much more sensitivity.

... I would never use these for soldering personally. ...

I agree. So I hope that a normal camera will give such an opportunity. But there are doubts.

[dredd]

Well. Fark Aliexpress and "Eakins Store" in particular
store Id = 836673

EDIT: I found the piece I forgot to ship back with the stand, bracket that connects two pillars. They were totally right issuing partial refund. My bad.

I ordered "Industrial Binocular Trinocular Microscope Camera Stand" US$99 and "Trinocular Stereo Microscope Head" (their Choice program) US$150

Tried to return both because exit pupil was so small it was unusable. The head (Choice item) was refunded in full. But stand was partially refunded, just US$76 out of $100. Support in two separate chats said "yea, we'll fix it, have a nice day sir", Nothing was fixed. $75 refund came through, Appeal button resulted in "the newly updated proof from the local warehouse. Since the item you return is different, we cannot arrange refund for you.".  I sent it back exactly as I have received it.
/rant lol

I have cheap 20x/40x stereo and it works much better and for infrequent use it'll do. Maybe I'll duct-tape 0.3x barlow to it - my very last aliexpress purchase
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/0-7x-barlow-lens-for-this-stereo-microscope-possible

No model names, no brands (everyone and their dog is reselling the few OEMs that-cannot-be-named), missing or confusing specifications, 300 combinations - "Colour" of same things - save your time and don't shop at Aliexpress!