What Oscilloscope buy?

[GlowingGhoul]

You're right, we aren't fools. But you, sir, managed quite well to look like a fool yourself. Again. As usual. 

Spare me the personal insults. It is blatantly obvious to the regulars in this forum that you're grossly biased towards Lecroy scopes, and warning those who may mistakenly believe you're offering objective advice is prudent.

This is an area of expertise where objectivity and analysis are the stock and trade, and those same people, when making purchasing decisions in this price range overwhelmingly do not choose LeCroy.

[nbritton]

Without a doubt I would recommend the Rigol 2072A. It can be software hacked to 300 MHz. Cost $788.66 over at tequipment.net with the EEVblog discount. Even if you don't want to hack the bandwidth setting of the scope, Rigol is currently giving away all the extra options with the purchase of a new unit.

If you don't want to hack the bandwidth go with the 200 MHz DS2202A for $1,682.6

[Wuerstchenhund]

Post removed by moderator, can we calm this down please.

[Karel]

... a low-participation member like you ...

... you really need your head examined.

You talking about objectivity and analysis is like a blind man talking about colors   You've repeatedly talked crap even  ...
... don't use words you clearly don't understand. It just makes you look even worse than you already do

You clearly have no fucking clue ...

Can't you talk a little bit more civilised? Why is it that when people disagree with your preference for lecroy that you start to get personal?

[Simon]

why don't we just go back to talking about scopes, in a civilized manner.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Can't you talk a little bit more civilised? Why is it that when people disagree with your preference for lecroy that you start to get personal?

It's really getting silly now. I mean, seriously, I got attacked because I dared to give the OP my opinion on the scopes he selected? Because I said that I believe a particular LeCroy scope is the best choice? Really? Is that what is now considered acceptable around here?


For the record (again):

I have nothing against citicism, but from any grown-up discussion I'd expect some arguments, i.e. show me why you believe that X is inferior to Y, and support it with some evidence. Let's talk about the individual merits and drawbacks of each product. Fine. I'm all for that.

I also have nothing against criticising LeCroy, which I myself did on many occasions (well, if they screw up they fully deserve the flag).

However, I have to admit that my tolerance level is very low is when I'm talked off from the backside from someone who's clearly only interested in provoking and not in a healthy discussion, and who seems to be overly keen to exclude a certain manufacturer from ever being mentioned around here.

This particlular member has stalked me in the past, he's not a first time offender and clearly comes with an agenda. I might have reacted a bit harsh, but the problem with trolls is that if you don't kick them where it really hurts they become a nasty virus that will just spread on. There are many forums that have gone down because they tolerated the trolls that in the end just took over.

As for me mentioning LeCroy, I do it simply because (almost) no-one else does, and because I genuinely believe that some of their products are great (and I have exposure to a lot of T&M gear, probably more so than a lot of other people around here). I also regularly recommend gear from other manufacturers where I think its appropriate. But there aren't many people in this forum who access to newer LeCroy scopes, probably because until last year they didn't have anything worthwhile in the entry level class. You'd think mentioning another alternative would be a good thing, as it only increases the choice for those who are looking for a scope, don't you think?

And it's not that there aren't many people here that recommend certain other brands almost constantly, but because of the sheer number it's obviously more difficult to pick on them.

Now ask yourself what kind of environment you want this forum to be, something resembling 4Chan, or something we can have discussions about test gear on a mature level.

Now, can we all get back on topic?

[Berni]

All of those are pretty good scopes. In terms of speed you cant go wrong with the Agilent, the others might have some features that it doesn't have like deep memory or some specialized signal analysis and such. But the 200MHz requirement will eat in to the budget quite a bit.

Now if you have a decent budget and you want bandwith then used scopes from ebay can be a great deal. I recently picked up a 4GHz Agilent 9000 series scope for 6 grand from Keysights official ebay store. While that was a pretty lucky grab you still get 500MHz to 1GHz scopes to fit in your budget while still getting a pretty modern unit with the features we come to expect from todays scopes.

[Karel]

... or something we can have discussions about test gear on a mature level.

Getting personal when people don't agree with you is not considered mature.

Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on Today at 03:38:24 PM

    ... a low-participation member like you ...

    ... you really need your head examined.

    You talking about objectivity and analysis is like a blind man talking about colors   You've repeatedly talked crap even  ...
    ... don't use words you clearly don't understand. It just makes you look even worse than you already do

    You clearly have no fucking clue ...

In this thread, the only person that gets personal/is insulting is you.

[nctnico]

Without a doubt I would recommend the Rigol 2072A. It can be software hacked to 300 MHz. Cost $788.66 over at tequipment.net with the EEVblog discount. Even if you don't want to hack the bandwidth setting of the scope, Rigol is currently giving away all the extra options with the purchase of a new unit.

If you don't want to hack the bandwidth go with the 200 MHz DS2202A for $1,682.6

You have to ask yourself if you can live with a quirky scope when spending that kind of money. If protocol decoding is not a requirement I'd look at a used scope from an A brand or bite the bullet and spend a bit more.

[montcler]

Hello, Thank you all,

I already decided to buy oscilloscope.
Keysight DSOX3024T all free licenses, and also 12h free training for Keysight to learn this oscilloscope, as I said the first time will have one digital, the payment facilities
that normally no one gives, as most is cash payment.

Sorry for the disappointment of some, but I like Tektronix € 1K more expensive and indeed the spectrum analyzer, will not use it.

LeCroy seems to be fine, but as I have in my country as a representative of Keysight also gives you more confidence if scratched etc ...

The Rigol have seen many videos of tests on YouTube and truth are a little slow to decode ports (I2C, UARTs ....) and some things, and I do not think good idea fanciest twice the money .

Yokogawa have never answered or called me and that I have another representative in my country (not interest them !!).

Ahhh Thanks Dave for all videos Keysight 3000 Series.

Thank you all and your opinions.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I already decided to buy oscilloscope.
Keysight DSOX3024T all free licenses, and also 12h free training for Keysight to learn this oscilloscope, as I said the first time will have one digital, the payment facilities
that normally no one gives, as most is cash payment.

Congratulation, that's a good decision. I'm sure you won't regret it.

LeCroy seems to be fine, but as I have in my country as a representative of Keysight also gives you more confidence if scratched etc ...

I agree (and I hadn't considered that there might not be a LeCroy subsidiary in your country), that's a plus. You can find yourself lost if you have to depend on resellers.

[Berni]

Hello, Thank you all,

I already decided to buy oscilloscope.
Keysight DSOX3024T all free licenses, and also 12h free training for Keysight to learn this oscilloscope, as I said the first time will have one digital, the payment facilities
that normally no one gives, as most is cash payment.

Congrats on your first digital scope. Im sure you will love it.

That scope should make you feel right at home if you come from a analog scope. All your classic analog-ish knobs are there, its as responsive as a analog scope pretty much and it pretty much hides all the new memory depth and sample rate stuff from you. It wont even allow you to adjust any of them as it constantly uses the max possible memory and sample rate. It will also never alias the signal or do something confusing like that. So its not required to know any of this modern digital scope stuff, but getting to know it later will help you get the most performance out of your scope(Dave did a good video about it)

[nfmax]

That scope should make you feel right at home if you come from a analog scope. All your classic analog-ish knobs are there, its as responsive as a analog scope pretty much and it pretty much hides all the new memory depth and sample rate stuff from you. It wont even allow you to adjust any of them as it constantly uses the max possible memory and sample rate. It will also never alias the signal or do something confusing like that. So its not required to know any of this modern digital scope stuff, but getting to know it later will help you get the most performance out of your scope(Dave did a good video about it)

That's a good point! I went straight from using a DSO at work where you always wanted the maximum memory depth - because there were only 2,500 points - to an MSOX2024 of my own where the sample rate/depth selection stuff is fully automatic. That explains why I get confused with some of Dave's hands-on reviews.

[Howardlong]

Hello everyone. I'm an Engineer in Keysight's Oscilloscope Division. I'd like to address some of these comments.
To address your comment about the 3000T hardware, it is actually based on the 4000X and not the 3000A.

If the 3000T is based on the 4000X platform - is its analogue frontend also so noisy ?

We have 3 of these 1GHz MSOX 4104A models and these all have very noisy AFE inputs ... rather some milli-volts (8mVpp) expecting hundred microvolts or better ?
You cannot measure the output noise of an LDO with these MSOX4000 units ... - also its display is not that crispy ...

http://www.keysight.com/ja/pd-2192233-pn-MSOX4104A/oscilloscope-1-ghz-4-16-channels

Two things.

The screen on those 4000s is 12", it will inevitably seem noisier, I have the same on a 7000.

Secondly, have you bandwidth-limited the scope channel(s)? 1GHz is a lot of spectrum.

Also I'm not so sure that an (unaided) scope is really the best tool for that job particularly at the levels you're talking about.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If the 3000T is based on the 4000X platform - is its analogue frontend also so noisy ?

We have 3 of these 1GHz MSOX 4104A models and these all have very noisy AFE inputs ... rather some milli-volts (8mVpp) expecting hundred microvolts or better ?
You cannot measure the output noise of an LDO with these MSOX4000 units ... - also its display is not that crispy ...

Secondly, have you bandwidth-limited the scope channel(s)? 1GHz is a lot of spectrum.

Also I'm not so sure that an (unaided) scope is really the best tool for that job particularly at the levels you're talking about.

Butterfly has mentioned the noise in the DSOX4104 before, and since then I had the chance to look at two units at work and they showed the same noise levels.

Bandwidth is no explanation for the issue:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/msg688309/#msg688309

1Ghz isn't that much bandwidth, and you shouldn't have to bandwidth-limit a 1GHz scope to get better than 8mV.

[montcler]

Hello all,

Hey Berni're absolutely right, the experience of analog oscilloscope will always be with us and all have had one, now is the great learning digital and what they can do.
Thx.

[aklimaj]

If the 3000T is based on the 4000X platform - is its analogue frontend also so noisy ?

We have 3 of these 1GHz MSOX 4104A models and these all have very noisy AFE inputs ... rather some milli-volts (8mVpp) expecting hundred microvolts or better ?
You cannot measure the output noise of an LDO with these MSOX4000 units ... - also its display is not that crispy ...

Secondly, have you bandwidth-limited the scope channel(s)? 1GHz is a lot of spectrum.

Also I'm not so sure that an (unaided) scope is really the best tool for that job particularly at the levels you're talking about.

Butterfly has mentioned the noise in the DSOX4104 before, and since then I had the chance to look at two units at work and they showed the same noise levels.

Bandwidth is no explanation for the issue:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/msg688309/#msg688309

1Ghz isn't that much bandwidth, and you shouldn't have to bandwidth-limit a 1GHz scope to get better than 8mV.

Take a look at our recently updated App Note on Oscilloscope Vertical Noise.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-3020EN.pdf

[Howardlong]

1Ghz isn't that much bandwidth

Maybe not for you!

[GlowingGhoul]

I already decided to buy oscilloscope.
Keysight DSOX3024T all free licenses, and also 12h free training for Keysight to learn this oscilloscope, as I said the first time will have one digital, the payment facilities
that normally no one gives, as most is cash payment.

Congratulation, that's a good decision. I'm sure you won't regret it.

Excellent! Your first positive comment about a Keysight product ever!

And we agree, it is a very good decision indeed, not just for today but for the long haul. Keysight's support is second to none. I speak from first hand knowledge.

[Wuerstchenhund]

1Ghz isn't that much bandwidth

Maybe not for you!

It's on the upper end for a midrange scope but 1GHz isn't that much bandwidth for a scope in absolute terms (we're at 100GHz now, and even Tek manages 70GHz).

And it's certainly not a justification for the high noise floor we've seen in the DSOX4kA. Much older scopes have maintained that bandwidth with less noise.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Take a look at our recently updated App Note on Oscilloscope Vertical Noise.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-3020EN.pdf

You mean "infomercial"? It has some interesting content but I wonder will we ever see any App Note from Keysight that doesn't include talking about your competition? Especially when you have to compare your current products with in some cases 8yr old competitor scopes.

[Berni]

They are not the only ones comparing there products to the competitions carefully selected products. Its still a useful document since some of this stuff is not found in the datasheets.

But if you are getting 8mVpp of noise then you surely must be doing something to it. But then again if you are looking at milivolt scale signals you should get a amplifier to boost it up some. I am planing to build a 1000x gain active scope probe for the smart probe interface on agilent scopes but i never got around to doing it yet. I don't see why Keysight wouldn't sell one of these things. They have a broad range of high bandwidth active probes but no low bandwidth microvolt probes.

[Wuerstchenhund]

They are not the only ones comparing there products to the competitions carefully selected products. Its still a useful document since some of this stuff is not found in the datasheets.

That's true, but that doesn't make this practise less silly. Especially when they have to drag out old competitor's scopes that have already seen two successors.

But if you are getting 8mVpp of noise then you surely must be doing something to it.

No, that's with nothing connected and inputs switched to GND. It doesn't matter if the connectors are open, 50ohms terminated or even shorted. I didn't pay much attention as I usually don't use (yes, I know!) low-bandwidth scopes but after Butterfly mentioned in in the thread I referred to I just took two of them after they just arrived back from calibration at Keysight and gave it a try, and low and behold I did see the same boise.

But then again if you are looking at milivolt scale signals you should get a amplifier to boost it up some.

Yes, depending on what you do, although signal amplifiers come with their own set of drawbacks (i.e. many have very limited bandwidth). However it doesn't change the fact that the noise level that Butterfly and I saw was pretty poor. I don't know if its a general problem with the DSOX4104A or just with some units (both of the scopes I tried were Agilent labelled), or if lower bandwidth variants are also affected, but no matter what it's pretty poor for a scope that costs approx $16k in the base config, especially when again older scopes could handle that bandwidth with much lower noise.

It would really be interesting to see if the DSOX3054T suffers from the same problem (I guess not, if it's a general problem with the DSOX3kA then I'm sure they would have fixed it in the DSOX3kA). The referenced infomercial shows a pretty low noise floor (which is good), but then it does the same for the DSOX4kA.

[aklimaj]

Take a look at our recently updated App Note on Oscilloscope Vertical Noise.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-3020EN.pdf

You mean "infomercial"? It has some interesting content but I wonder will we ever see any App Note from Keysight that doesn't include talking about your competition? Especially when you have to compare your current products with in some cases 8yr old competitor scopes.

Yes it is a marketing for our products. I agree with you, I don't like the attack based marketing. When I updated this app note, I actually took out much of the "our product is better than yours" content.

I performed all the measurements myself and you can see that at certain V/div settings that Keysight is not always the lowest noise.

The reason the scopes are so old is because those happened to be what we had lying around from the competition. When we get some newer scopes in the office, I will update the document again.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Yes it is a marketing for our products. I agree with you, I don't like the attack based marketing. When I updated this app note, I actually took out much of the "our product is better than yours" content.

I'm not blaming you personally of course (I know that these things are rarely decided at the engineering level) but as someone who buys a lot of test gear professionally let me just say that this isn't necessarily perceived as positive by your customers (in fact, sometimes "desperate" comes to mind).

I performed all the measurements myself and you can see that at certain V/div settings that Keysight is not always the lowest noise.

Yes, I see, the R&S RTM is pretty good with noise, but that's what R&S traditionally focusses on. And their scopes are very expensive.

Maybe you could also include some screenshots from your competitors? That could also help to maintain the impression that this is more about discussing noise in general and less so to make Keysight scopes look good.

The reason the scopes are so old is because those happened to be what we had lying around from the competition. When we get some newer scopes in the office, I will update the document again.

I understand, but frankly if you have to compare your current DSOX4000A against an roughly 8yr old scope like the LeCroy WaveRunner Xi (which has been replaced by a successor in 2008, and this successor has also been replaced by another successor in 2010, which again is now again due for replacement) then from my side of the desk it does look a bit desperate. You're really better off not including such old scopes at all.