What I want (and probably a lot of other hobbyists too....)

[Marco]

Input protection for high speed data and high speed comparators aren't particularly cheap

Most of the hobbyist level LAs aren't high speed.

[kizzap]

Fungus: maybe this one is more suitable at ~$600 AUD (you don't specify a location so we can't help find something more local)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-Channel-70MHz-1GSa-s-Oscilloscope-8CH-Logic-Analyzer-2in1-USB-7-LCD-MSO5074F-/141247691492?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item20e304bae4&_uhb=1

edit: looks like another Hantek, possibly more modern (don't quote me on that)

[Fungus]

Maybe this one is an option although the digital probe is not cheap.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/

798 Euros+probe  (plus 20% tax, I imagine)

I dunno...

[tom66]

PS: How noisy are these new Rigols?

The previous generation of Rigol engineers seemed to design their products in a tin shack next door to a rocket engine test facility.

My DS1074Z's fan is noticeably loud, about as loud as my PC running under moderate load.  It's enough to be distracting.

[kizzap]

Maybe this one is an option although the digital probe is not cheap.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/

798 Euros+probe  (plus 20% tax, I imagine)

I dunno...

If you want some better help, Set your country in your profile, and give us some idea of what price-range you can afford. Look on eBay for that model, I am sure you will find cheaper, closer to you (the one I linked is Australian, so postage is going to be killer).

[Fungus]

Fungus: maybe this one is more suitable at ~$600 AUD (you don't specify a location so we can't help find something more local)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-Channel-70MHz-1GSa-s-Oscilloscope-8CH-Logic-Analyzer-2in1-USB-7-LCD-MSO5074F-/141247691492?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item20e304bae4&_uhb=1

edit: looks like another Hantek, possibly more modern (don't quote me on that)

They don't ship to Spain, but this seller does:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121294014966

$549 for 4 analog channels and 8 digital, with shipping.

Nice.

Also, separate control knobs per channel (unlike the Rigol), utra slim design, no fan noise...looks like all the cables are included, too.

That one definitely goes on the shortlist.

[free_electron]

Ebay. Try to find a 54645D. Or a 54622D

Rock solid machines. Can be found as low as 200$ (real lucky). Typically in the 500$ ballpark

[leppie]

Ebay. Try to find a 54645D. Or a 54622D

Rock solid machines. Can be found as low as 200$ (real lucky). Typically in the 500$ ballpark

Ah Those look quite nice. Will keep an eye out.

[Fungus]

If you want some better help, Set your country in your profile, and give us some idea of what price-range you can afford. Look on eBay for that model, I am sure you will find cheaper, closer to you (the one I linked is Australian, so postage is going to be killer).

I always look on eBay, etc., which is why country doesn't matter a lot.

Price range? Not really fixed.

In my head they ought to be able to put this together for $450-$550: 2 Analog+8 logic, 70MHz, 1Gs/sec. What's the closest thing to that spec. that will work nicely?

The Hantek MSO5102D is within half a bee's dick but doesn't appear to have any logic analysis functions. Is there anything else which does, even if it's a bit more expensive?

[Creep]

Batronix (german seller) has the DS1074Z for 740$ shipped (tax included). Not sure if it's worth dicking around with the hantek etc. scince the price difference is only about 100$. IMO unless you manage so somehow miraculously find something below the 500$+VAT (your going have to pay the taxes when ordering outside europe anyway) mark that would be a worthwhile purchase, the Rigol is probably the safest bet. Been drilling through reviews and info on the available DSOs in the 400-800$ range for the past week, haven't found anything that can really compete with the Rigol for the price. Plus it has an intensity graded display and that's a feature most people, once tried, do not wish to live without.

[Fungus]

Batronix (german seller) has the DS1074Z for 740$ shipped (tax included). Not sure if it's worth dicking around with the hantek etc. scince the price difference is only about 100$.

I see a price of 450 Euro+tax when I go there.

In theory I can buy that tax-free via my company (I'm in Europe too), so it would be 450Euro

*If* I can wangle that, and *if* it's definitely hackable to enable the serial analysis functions, then that's very hard to resist.


Update: I just tried a dummy order and, yes, they seem to handle the tax correctly. That's German efficiency for you...

It'll have to wait 'til at least next month though. I need to save up.

[politoleo]

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else already suggested you that:

http://uk.farnell.com/digilent/410-244/design-kit-analog-discovery/dp/2143587

It does what you ask and it looks good for price/performance ratio!

Plus I remember there was a special price for student!

[idpromnut]

I don't know if Hantek's 'scopes suffer from the same poor firmware as their function generators of the same generation, but there are quite a few bugs in their HDG2002B line of function gens (UI, a bit of non-critical functionality, etc).

[Creep]

Yes, it's 450 EUR indeed, I already included the calculation for adding taxes.
So if you can get around paying the taxes, then definitely go for it. And regarding the firmware hacking: I already mentioned, read around the forums, there is plenty of info on it. Decide for yourself afterwards what you think of it. The main thread is the one 200+ page thread in the first page of this forums (Sniffing the Rigol...).

[Fungus]

Yes, it's 450 EUR indeed, I already included the calculation for adding taxes.
So if you can get around paying the taxes, then definitely go for it. And regarding the firmware hacking: I already mentioned, read around the forums, there is plenty of info on it. Decide for yourself afterwards what you think of it.

I've got a month or so to decide what to do

Thanks for the help, BTW.

The main thread is the one 200+ page thread in the first page of this forums (Sniffing the Rigol...).

Yeah, I see it. 223 pages and counting... 

[alexwhittemore]

I love my 1104z, but even with the protocol analysis it's hardly an MSO. The analysis is all in software, so there's lots to go wrong: it's pretty slow, it can be more intolerant of signal issues than if it were properly digital input, memory depth is substantially worse than a proper logic analyzer (much less a PC analyzer with effectively infinite memory...) And if you're playing by the book and paying for the analysis features, they're also another $150 or something over the base price of the scope. Definitely worth the price if you need them, but it's much more for the use case of primarily analog need, with light duty digital needs rather than the other way around.

Here's the thing on price: The 1104D is about the same price mostly because the 1104Z is much newer and represents an aggressive increase in value. You'll notice that the 1074z isn't substantially more expensive than the much older 1104, despite being wildly better. It's mostly because they're not dropping the bottom out of the price on the older series, they're just moving sales over to the newer stuff.

Anyway, for what you seem to truly need (a couple okay analog channels with a bunch more good digital channels on top), what fits the bill perfectly (I think) is the new Saleae Pro series that's available for preorder. I know you'd rather have an integrated device, but the fact is that in test equipment sorts of volumes, an applications processor, screen, housing, and UI cost a couple hundred bucks, so it doesn't make sense to spend, say, $300 or $400 on those things tacked on to a front end that's only $100 or $200. Rigol basically does that, but it's why you're not going to find even the cheapest device to fit your needs for less than $6-700.

On the other hand, the pro series has, at one price point, 8 channels, all selectable analog or digital, for $200. The digital channels are great and plenty fast enough for anything you might need that isn't a high speed serial bus (USB, SATA), and the analog sampling rate is basically just-good-enough (you'll see what's going on, probably enough to get the job done).

[Fungus]

what fits the bill perfectly (I think) is the new Saleae Pro series that's available for preorder.

People keep mentioning those, but the Analog side is terrible. 5MHz bandwidth at best, and only in the $400 model. The $200 model only has 1MHz.

I dunno. I don't really do much protocol analysis if I'm honest, and I'm old enough to be able to just look at an I2C signal and do the binary-to-hex conversion in my head (which is what I do on my DSO Quad at the moment).

What really want (I think) is the functionality of my DSO Quad but with proper knobs and buttons to control it. It's a heart thing as much as a head thing.

Question: Can the saleae do a decent real-time analog display or do you hit "record" then look at the signal later? It's not clear from what I've seen so far (which makes me suspect the answer is "no")

Does it even do a real-time digital display?

As I said earlier, I've got a month to mull it over. Maybe the head will win. Maybe something else will appear.

On the other hand, the pro series has, at one price point, 8 channels, all selectable analog or digital, for $200.

I think you'll find it's $400: https://www.saleae.com/

(plus there's the possiblity of paying tax+shipping on that so it could easily end up nearer $600 if I'm unlucky)

[Fungus]

I've just been watching this:

Nope. Not impressed.

Absolutely not a substitute for an oscilloscope (or even close to what I'm after).

[ctm2matman]

From the Tektronix used equipment available on eBay you can find  7000-series mainframes for 100, 250, 400 or 500 MHz bandwidth for under $200. Into any one of these, you can install a 7D01 logic analyzer good for 4, 8 or 16 digital channels. If you insist on a analog signals, you can install a pair of 4-channel vertical preamps for eight analog channels.  If bandwidth is not an issue, you can drop to the 2MHz 5000-series with a pair of 4-channel preamp for even less money.

[TerraHertz]

Since you already have a scope, and once you start looking at multiple logic signals then 4 (or 8, or 16, etc) is never enough, why don't you just buy a nice used logic analyzer? They can be very cheap, and will more than do the job.

For instance I got a fully working Tek 1240 complete with all probes, manual, etc, for $38. Plus shipping.
Even much more modern ones can be quite cheap.

Edit: Oops, I re-read your original post, and realized you don't actually have a scope.
So, my modified advice: buy a 2nd hand cheap logic analyzer, and a 2nd hand scope. Trying to get both functions in one unit means you'll be paying a lot more. And there's no need. You can easily trigger either one from the other.

[TomThomas]

I love my 1104z, but even with the protocol analysis it's hardly an MSO. The analysis is all in software, so there's lots to go wrong: it's pretty slow, it can be more intolerant of signal issues than if it were properly digital input, memory depth is substantially worse than a proper logic analyzer (much less a PC analyzer with effectively infinite memory...) And if you're playing by the book and paying for the analysis features, they're also another $150 or something over the base price of the scope. Definitely worth the price if you need them, but it's much more for the use case of primarily analog need, with light duty digital needs rather than the other way around.

Here's the thing on price: The 1104D is about the same price mostly because the 1104Z is much newer and represents an aggressive increase in value. You'll notice that the 1074z isn't substantially more expensive than the much older 1104, despite being wildly better. It's mostly because they're not dropping the bottom out of the price on the older series, they're just moving sales over to the newer stuff.

Anyway, for what you seem to truly need (a couple okay analog channels with a bunch more good digital channels on top), what fits the bill perfectly (I think) is the new Saleae Pro series that's available for preorder. I know you'd rather have an integrated device, but the fact is that in test equipment sorts of volumes, an applications processor, screen, housing, and UI cost a couple hundred bucks, so it doesn't make sense to spend, say, $300 or $400 on those things tacked on to a front end that's only $100 or $200. Rigol basically does that, but it's why you're not going to find even the cheapest device to fit your needs for less than $6-700.

On the other hand, the pro series has, at one price point, 8 channels, all selectable analog or digital, for $200. The digital channels are great and plenty fast enough for anything you might need that isn't a high speed serial bus (USB, SATA), and the analog sampling rate is basically just-good-enough (you'll see what's going on, probably enough to get the job done).

Hi,
 I was just around in the web and simply googled MSO1074Z and found the following...
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-mso1074z

Batterfly is an Italian Rigol Distributor...so it seems Rigol has/will release MSO1074Z ?
But I couldn't find this anywhere else in Europe.
Rigol.com (chinese Website)has this and also MSO2000A listed.

For me this sounds very promissing... Maybe I will contact Batterfly directly

Regards
Tom

[gmit77]

hello! yes MSO1000Z MSO1000Z-S MSO2000A and MSO2000A-S will come soon.
first bunch of units is expected for July.

more tech questions? just ask 

[tszaboo]

If one of your scope has a trigger output, you can connect that to another scope trigger input. This way you can ghetto rig together two cheap two channel scope, maybe you already have one. Just sayin.

[Creep]

Speaking of the MSO2000A, I would like to ask about the number of channels. Is it going to be a 2 channel scope like the DS2000A or a 4 channel one?
Will our dream of a 4 channel DS2000 come true?

[jimjam]

Does DS1000Z have similar issues / bugs as the DS4000 series?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/

I hope the MSOxxxxx will have newer firmware with fixed bugs (and probably introduce new ones!) I'm glad I haven't jumped the guns and bought a DS1000z. Besides I am still very confused over all this:

- DS1104Z-s
- DS4014
- Agilent DSOX2014A (because it's about the same price as DS4014)

Out of those, Agilent seems like the best quality gear. I especially like the responsiveness of it. Although NOTHING is ever perfect in life... (unless $$$ is unlimited but even then...) - Agilent has very small memory depth (100k) and even with the upgrade to 1M, my impression is that it's still not great (Based on the review by mjlorton on youtube). Not to mention that Agilent will be expensive to repair / upgrade features for etc.

The MSO1000z will change this again.