What do you think of the new Fluke 87 V MAX?

[rsjsouza]

What fantasy land do you guys live in, if you think companies don't need business-side product managers whose job it is to plan and drive sales? They're a publicly traded company, they HAVE to have business people just to manage basic SEC compliance.

Well put. That reads to me as boilerplate job description for that type of position.

[Gandalf_Sr]

In the automotive world, the product managers are kings of their domains and are engineers who liaise with marketing.  I agree that you need good marketing managers but you also need good products and this whole thread has been questioning why the new Fluke 87 V Max looks like a product designed by someone who doesn't use the product.

You can have the best marketing in the world but a bad product will doom your sales numbers.

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

In the automotive world, the product managers are kings of their domains and are engineers who liaise with marketing.  I agree that you need good marketing managers but you also need good products and this whole thread has been questioning why the new Fluke 87 V Max looks like a product designed by someone who doesn't use the product.

You can have the best marketing in the world but a bad product will doom your sales numbers.

Don't know about that, but I'm questioning why the Fluke 87V Max seems to be a duplicate of another product.
It just seems to be a rebadged Fluke 28 II.

That's the real issue I think people are going to have with it, unless someone can look inside the thing and see what sets it apart from the Fluke 28 II, apart from a 4 meter drop rating, compared to a 3 meter one.

[Black Phoenix]

In the automotive world, the product managers are kings of their domains and are engineers who liaise with marketing.  I agree that you need good marketing managers but you also need good products and this whole thread has been questioning why the new Fluke 87 V Max looks like a product designed by someone who doesn't use the product.

You can have the best marketing in the world but a bad product will doom your sales numbers.

The problem here is that It wasn't a product designed from someone who doesn't use the product. It is a copy paste of an existing product, the Fluke 28II, that is even more lazy. Just change some silkscreen in a plastic printing machine, change the design of the packing box and some text in the manual and done.

It's like when a brand releases a restyling of the last year's model, but in this case they only changed where the letters stuck on the boot.

[rsjsouza]

+1 here. The 87V MAX is probably an excellent product but, until proven otherwise, it is a carbon copy of the excellent 28II.

This is lazy marketing, not lazy engineering.

[Fungus]

Don't know about that, but I'm questioning why the Fluke 87V Max seems to be a duplicate of another product.
It just seems to be a rebadged Fluke 28 II.

That's the real issue I think people are going to have with it, unless someone can look inside the thing and see what sets it apart from the Fluke 28 II, apart from a 4 meter drop rating, compared to a 3 meter one.

No, the real issue is that some specs suddenly got a lot worse in something that's being sold as an "improved" product.

eg. Diode test voltage.

[tooki]

I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehow owed you a bells-and-whistles new model.

1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.
2. There’s nothing wrong with the 87V MAX being a rebadge of the 28 II. Companies do this all the time.
3. Given that the 28 II is a drop-in substitute for the 87V for probably 90% of users, and that it probably results in less warranty claim costs due to its better durability, I speculate that Fluke was probably frustrated that people kept buying the 87V instead. So the rename might just be to try and get more people to the newer, more robust platform.

[rsjsouza]

I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehow owed you a bells-and-whistles new model.

1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.

Sure they do. Better do what we fans and detractors want or else! We will splatter our anger on Twitter, Forums, Instagram and Facebook and hurt your sales for hobbyists and purists! Sure, you still sell your soul to those fat government and transnational contracts and this will probably not hurt your bottom line, but our principles are still intact. 

2. There’s nothing wrong with the 87V MAX being a rebadge of the 28 II. Companies do this all the time.

87IV --> 89IV --> 187/189 --> dead as a dodo.

3. Given that the 28 II is a drop-in substitute for the 87V for probably 90% of users, and that it probably results in less warranty claim costs due to its better durability, I speculate that Fluke was probably frustrated that people kept buying the 87V instead. So the rename might just be to try and get more people to the newer, more robust platform.

Aha! Gotcha! They are trying to save a buck by consolidating product lines and using all this new age MBA Kanban 6σ JIT on top of everyone. Us fans and hobbyists will grab our emojis of pitchforks and torches and show you our anger at your Facebook page.

[Fungus]

I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehow owed you a bells-and-whistles new model.

1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.

They owe us enough to not crap all over us with stunts like this.

Their customers are mostly professional engineers. They're gonna notice.

[floobydust]

They're hiring a Digital Multimeter (DMMs) Business Unit Manager
"Bachelor’s degree in Business, Marketing, Technical/Engineering; MBA preferred" 
I'm sure business and marketing types know what a volt is, or the difference between 87 and 28. Sigh.

Talk about misleading quoting there...

That is an eminently reasonable requirement, but it's not the salient one. Let's look at that bullet point in context:

Professional Qualifications:
• Bachelor’s degree in Business, Marketing, Technical/Engineering; MBA preferred
• Minimum 8 years of progressive leadership experience in a technical environment
• Demonstrated team management experience
• Ability to build strong high-level executive and peer relationships
• Strong business acumen and technical/engineering knowledge; experience in T&M industry desired
• [...]

So they're not looking for a green-faced college graduate, as your selective quoting implied. They're looking for an industry veteran, and a degree is merely a prerequisite.

Not mislead  - line 1, the job prereq's are hilarious, not the years of experience.
Marketing/Business types don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter. You want this as Captain of Fluke DMM's? It's all about "driving sales"?
Engineering and business have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON.
Engineers strive to make something safe, reliable, useful whilst business wants the MAX return to shareholders, in the fastest possible development time, with pittance spent on R&D or the long-term as that doesn't make money on paper. The race to the bottom that MBA-style management has become.

I've worked with several Product Line Managers- some uneducated but been with the company 15-20 years, others with an engineering degree and MBA. The best are in the trenches with their customers, know the applications very well - not sitting in Board room having meeting upon meeting and jerking off to a Gantt chart.

I duly note Fortis is located next door to Boeing, also incapable of making a new product and can only rehash a decades-old legend calling it the MAX.
The thread asks opinions of the 87V MAX and I say it's a nothing burger. I bitch because Fortis is letting the brand rot, stay as 1990's tech or even worse if the 87 is now a 28.

[tooki]

I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehow owed you a bells-and-whistles new model.

1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.

They owe us enough to not crap all over us with stunts like this.

Their customers are mostly professional engineers. They're gonna notice.

Fluke’s customers are primarily industrial technicians. Not engineers, LOL.

[Gandalf_Sr]

I'm glad I no longer own any Fluke meters, I have 3 Keysight handheld and one bench multimeter 

[Black Phoenix]

I'm glad I no longer own any Fluke meters, I have 3 Keysight handheld and one bench multimeter 

But I know you will one day buy a 289, at the right price. I know you will...

I think the outrage so many in this thread are expressing is simply ridiculous. From the sound of it, you’d think Fluke somehow owed you a bells-and-whistles new model.

1. Fluke doesn’t owe you anything.

Yes they doesn't own me anything, but we are free to judge their own choices, knowing that nothing will change, but still we are free to express our opinions right? This is a discussion topic, if it keep it civil and point valid points, the opinion is valid as any other right? Just because you are the leader in a market, that doesn't mean you should do the minimum. Look at Intel and what it got to them. Sure AMD will do the same and then Intel will overcome them again, and so on. The Prey it will be the Hunter in the future, over and over again. That kind of fight is what makes things improve, get better.

John Fluke would never think that his company would release a 289 or a 87V when he released the first Portable DMM, the Fluke 8020A. World evolve, and that is because companies and engineers crave for more, for better. f we gone into the mentality of it's good enough we will all still be driving the Ford T, and the Internet would not exist. Heck we would still live in Caves.

We know they can inovate - the Fluke 289, the FC series of equipments (that I really think is a great thing, having all equipments measuring different stuff simultaneously and being able to see real time live on a PC all the measures is great).

It may not mean anything for the normal buyer, a corporation but for the ones who get assign said equipments and who use the equipments it says a lot. And we always like to have the best, the better. We talk into the wind, what we talk no one will listen or thing we have a point. Specially corporations.

[Fungus]

Marketing/Business types don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter. You want this as Captain of Fluke DMM's? It's all about "driving sales"?

That's exactly why this meter is a complete fail. No existing 87V owner is going to "upgrade" to this.

Imagine how many "sales" they could have made if the 87V MAX was an 87V with some extra features, eg. 100,000 count hi-res mode, ability to select DC mode by default on current ranges,  better measurement of AC+DC combined, faster settling times, CAT !V 1000V, etc.

(which is all stuff that can be done without changing any existing operating procedures...)

That would have driven a few sales and a lot of upgrades from existing 87V meters.

Maybe that's why they're looking for a new product manager.

[Electro Detective]

Marketing/Business types don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter. You want this as Captain of Fluke DMM's? It's all about "driving sales"?

That's exactly why this meter is a complete fail. No existing 87V owner is going to "upgrade" to this.

Imagine how many "sales" they could have made if the 87V MAX was an 87V with some extra features, eg. 100,000 count hi-res mode, ability to select DC mode by default on current ranges,  better measurement of AC+DC combined, faster settling times, CAT !V 1000V, etc.

(which is all stuff that can be done without changing any existing operating procedures...)

That would have driven a few sales and a lot of upgrades from existing 87V meters.

Maybe that's why they're looking for a new product manager.

It's not a 'Maybe', they are PRAYING a sleezy and or experienced applicant will walk in to their panic stricken board room meeting 
and offer them a money spinning 'rebadge' idea that won't cost an extra dime in production costs, or a pittance at best,

a money spinning 'rebadge' idea that won't cost an extra dime in production costs, or a pittance at best, they can score here for free,

or already have.. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

After the Boeing fiasco I'm surprised anyone would use "MAX" as a product name enhancement

[2N3055]

Marketing/Business types don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter. You want this as Captain of Fluke DMM's? It's all about "driving sales"?

That's exactly why this meter is a complete fail. No existing 87V owner is going to "upgrade" to this.

Imagine how many "sales" they could have made if the 87V MAX was an 87V with some extra features, eg. 100,000 count hi-res mode, ability to select DC mode by default on current ranges,  better measurement of AC+DC combined, faster settling times, CAT !V 1000V, etc.

(which is all stuff that can be done without changing any existing operating procedures...)

That would have driven a few sales and a lot of upgrades from existing 87V meters.

Maybe that's why they're looking for a new product manager.

It is not meant to be replacement or upgrade. Marketing wanted to cash in on strongest brand name on market, to prop up the sales of 28... Simple as that. IT IS about milking the brand name. And they got it right... Just look at this useless and long discussion here...

News flash: Fluke is brand in decline in multimeter world. For years, nothing new was made.. They live of the old glory, and as long as few remaining products sell, they will keep it going.
Maximum profits, minimum investment...

And if they make new 87 VI with upgrades you suggested, it would compete with 289 and we can't have that, can we? And so many people told me here on EEVBLOG that they like it exactly because it was simpler than, for instance, Brymen 869. To them lack of features and functions is a virtue, not a deficit.

And anwer to OP question: Who cares. Nothing happened. They renamed one product. How is that of any relevance to anybody except to Flue salesman?

[Fungus]

And if they make new 87 VI with upgrades you suggested, it would compete with 289 and we can't have that, can we? And so many people told me here on EEVBLOG that they like it exactly because it was simpler than, for instance, Brymen 869. To them lack of features and functions is a virtue, not a deficit.

There's also the argument that any changes to the markings on the dial would force a lot of people to rewrite their operating procedure manuals, training material, etc.

That's why none of my suggestions in the previous post made it less simple or changed the way it works. They were just incremental improvements to the existing meter to keep it competitive and maybe even give existing 87V owners a reason to upgrade.

[Gandalf_Sr]

I'm glad I no longer own any Fluke meters, I have 3 Keysight handheld and one bench multimeter 

But I know you will one day buy a 289, at the right price. I know you will...

I haven't got set up for making videos properly yet but am moving (slowly) in that direction.  However, I have tested out the data capture features of the U1242C and it meets all my needs; it can capture up to 2,000 readings stand-alone or unlimited plugged in (or connected via the U1117A BT module).  The Keysight handheld meter logger software on the PC can a) grab the contents of the 2,000 saved values and save as .csv/.pdf and b) generate graphs over time of multiple readings i.e. more than 1 meter feeding data into the software.  I can also do wireless readings to my iPhone using the U1117A from any of my Agilent handheld meters.

I'm not feeling the urge to go splash out on a 289 right now.

[tooki]

That's exactly why this meter is a complete fail. No existing 87V owner is going to "upgrade" to this.

Imagine how many "sales" they could have made if the 87V MAX was an 87V with some extra features, eg. 100,000 count hi-res mode, ability to select DC mode by default on current ranges,  better measurement of AC+DC combined, faster settling times, CAT !V 1000V, etc.

(which is all stuff that can be done without changing any existing operating procedures...)

That would have driven a few sales and a lot of upgrades from existing 87V meters.

Maybe that's why they're looking for a new product manager.

You think upgrades are desirable in this industry?!? This isn’t phones or computers. The physics of electricity aren’t changing. Test and measurement is an industry where long-term reliability, durability, and consistency are much more valuable. Their key customers don’t want featuritis in a field multimeter, they want reliable devices. They want to know that the model they buy now will be available in 10 years because the equipment they service with it will be in use for 50 years.

And no, the potential changes you list most certainly would change procedures and policies! Don’t you understand that industrial, military, aviation, etc customers have procedures that require arduous processes to change AT ALL? You literally cannot change a single word in a military or aviation manual without a stack of approvals, validations, etc. If a meter has different defaults, additional buttons or modes, or different values shown (which extra digits would do), then you’ve invalidated the manual and it has to go through all that again.

Besides, why turn the 87 into the 287/289, which already exists? Customers who want those features already have options. And don’t forget that Fluke did add features to the 87 series in the 87 IV, and it backfired and they ended up changing it into the 187/189. So it’s not even as though Fluke doesn’t know whether it’s a bad idea, they KNOW it is!!


We electronics people need to understand that we are not the market for Fluke meters. While we appreciate the reliability of the Fluke gear, it’s not designed for us. It’s designed for industry and electricians. Fluke makes absolutely no secret of this. The things we might want in a meter simply are not relevant to the industrial electricians they focus on, and in fact are undesirable distractions, adding complexity and opportunities for failure.

[Fungus]

You think upgrades are desirable in this industry?!?

Yes!

This isn’t phones or computers. The physics of electricity aren’t changing. Test and measurement is an industry where long-term reliability, durability, and consistency are much more valuable. Their key customers don’t want featuritis in a field multimeter, they want reliable devices. They want to know that the model they buy now will be available in 10 years because the equipment they service with it will be in use for 50 years.

They don't have to stop producing the old one.

(In fact they aren't stopping production of the old one, probably for the reasons you mention.)

OTOH there's plenty of people who are starting to suspect that Fluke aren't the "best" any more. If I was a sales manager I'd be targeting those people with an upgrade.

[Mr. Scram]

After the Boeing fiasco I'm surprised anyone would use "MAX" as a product name enhancement

The term max is hardly a Boeing exclusive.

[tooki]

You think upgrades are desirable in this industry?!?

Yes!

This isn’t phones or computers. The physics of electricity aren’t changing. Test and measurement is an industry where long-term reliability, durability, and consistency are much more valuable. Their key customers don’t want featuritis in a field multimeter, they want reliable devices. They want to know that the model they buy now will be available in 10 years because the equipment they service with it will be in use for 50 years.

They don't have to stop producing the old one.

(In fact they aren't stopping production of the old one, probably for the reasons you mention.)

OTOH there's plenty of people who are starting to suspect that Fluke aren't the "best" any more. If I was a sales manager I'd be targeting those people with an upgrade.

And it’s a good thing you’re not a manager, because you’d fall flat on your face from not understanding what those customers want.

They don’t want bells and whistles. They want simple, reliable, and consistent.

[tooki]

After the Boeing fiasco I'm surprised anyone would use "MAX" as a product name enhancement

The term max is hardly a Boeing exclusive.

:::whoosh:::

^^ sound of the point zipping right over your head.

[floobydust]

This isn't an electrician's multimeter - No low Z (V or C) so you can't trust readings out in the field. Silly conductance measurement, ±0.05% accuracy is unnecessary.

I worked with plant electricians and they were scared of the 87V, didn't understand all the features and were afraid to damage one. It was too embarrassing to damage such an expensive meter and have all your peers laughing at you and the boss pissed off. This is what they told me. So the 114 (no current measurement) was  popular for them.

Fluke really need a new DMM chipset, to lower costs and increase features. The days of the Linear Tech alliance are long gone, I can't see Analog Devices really giving a shit over high margin, low volume IC fab. Hycon and Cyrustek Taiwan have the leading DMM IC's out there.

The 87V NG will likely have marketing add airbags, so it can survive a very long drop.
The holster offered in hot pink or rainbow colour, for a gender inclusive product.
Probably has MCAS in it, so the 87V MAX behaves just like an 87V despite 28II hardware.