What do you think of the new Fluke 87 V MAX?

[Black Phoenix]

Fluke are still manufacturing the 15B+ and 17B+ .......

I wonder if the PCB's are still the same like 15/17B were ?

$30 more for just a couple of extra buttons ? 

Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets 

Tear down time, who has these models for a perv? 


Plizza you posta foto here, tanka you very much   

Fluke already done that before with the PCB of the 50 series II thermometers, where the PCB is exactly the same and by changing some resistors around the equipment would recognised itself as a different model. To be sincere that's a very good way of saving money on development, using the same base and just populating what is missing depending of the equipment in question:

https://xdevs.com/article/fluke_51ii/

[james_s]

Fluke are still manufacturing the 15B+ and 17B+ .......

I wonder if the PCB's are still the same like 15/17B were ?

$30 more for just a couple of extra buttons ? 

Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets 

Tear down time, who has these models for a perv? 


Plizza you posta foto here, tanka you very much   

Fluke already done that before with the PCB of the 50 series II thermometers, where the PCB is exactly the same and by changing some resistors around the equipment would recognised itself as a different model. To be sincere that's a very good way of saving money on development, using the same base and just populating what is missing depending of the equipment in question:

https://xdevs.com/article/fluke_51ii/

This is done all over. Tek did it with many of their scopes, the entire TDS3000 series for example is capable of 500MHz but was sold in several models all the way down to only 100MHz at a substantial price difference.

[floobydust]

They're going to discontinue the 87V (or the 28II) because the 87V MAX is pretty much both. That's using logic to make sense of this stupidity.
Using emotions to make sense of this stupidity, after crying over the nothingburger that Fluke/Fortive rolled out, grab a pitchfork and yell at them to come with something new, innovative, or even competitive. But they don't have to.

[Black Phoenix]

Using emotions to make sense of this stupidity, after crying over the nothingburger that Fluke/Fortive rolled out, grab a pitchfork and yell at them to come with something new, innovative, or even competitive. But they don't have to.

And you and me know perfectly well that they didn't even think about that even once since we, "power users" don't are the market that they want to cater. Most of us don't even buy their equipments at full price, we look for Used/NOS deals instead.

I can say that my opinion stays the same, but with all the conversation back and forward it kinda changed a little, in regards of understanding and knowing my own place in what a company promotes their own equipments.

My needs of bigger, better, newer is not what they look for. The extra add in functionality for the same price or a good price/features metric.

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

They're going to discontinue the 87V (or the 28II) because the 87V MAX is pretty much both. That's using logic to make sense of this stupidity.
Using emotions to make sense of this stupidity, after crying over the nothingburger that Fluke/Fortive rolled out, grab a pitchfork and yell at them to come with something new, innovative, or even competitive. But they don't have to.

I can see the 28 II being discontinued, due to the similarity.

The 87V Max is more like the 28II than the normal 87V.

[Black Phoenix]

This is done all over. Tek did it with many of their scopes, the entire TDS3000 series for example is capable of 500MHz but was sold in several models all the way down to only 100MHz at a substantial price difference.

Yes it's done all over. My reply made it look it was the first time I saw that and was a surprise, I should had written in a less ambiguous way.

[Johnboy]

I've been searching on the forum for discussions about diode voltage for multimeters, and I spent some time poring over this particular spec on Wytnucls' spreadsheet. For many meters, the diode test voltage is the same as that which it puts out when doing continuity tests. This voltage seems to have crept up and up in production models over the years, with the 87V (whether you wish to label it as an electrician's meter or an electronics meter, it's clearly marketed toward industrial work) leading the pack of "favorites" at almost 8 volts. Five volts seems to be the norm, looking at Flukes other high-end offerings. The rest are considerably lower. Despite the need to test LED's, an "electronics meter" in the hands of a neophyte shouldn't be damaging sensitive components either. If you look at Keysight's offerings, for example, only a few are subjecting continuity checks or diode tests to even half of the voltage the 87V does. The 28-II, on the other hand, only does 2.8V. Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?

Edited as an afterthought to add: My Simpson 260 supplies ~9.5V on its dedicated continuity setting. I read that some of the Triplett analog meters supplied 14V.

[EEVblog]

Fluke are still manufacturing the 15B+ and 17B+ .......

I wonder if the PCB's are still the same like 15/17B were ?

$30 more for just a couple of extra buttons ? 

Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets 

Tear down time, who has these models for a perv? 


Plizza you posta foto here, tanka you very much   

Fluke already done that before with the PCB of the 50 series II thermometers, where the PCB is exactly the same and by changing some resistors around the equipment would recognised itself as a different model. To be sincere that's a very good way of saving money on development, using the same base and just populating what is missing depending of the equipment in question:

https://xdevs.com/article/fluke_51ii/

Fluke have been making identical models since the original 70 series DMM. Just a single link on the PCB turned your model 75 into a 77 

[tooki]

Exactly. And as I’ve already said, they also sold the 77 in a different color housing as the 23.

[Fungus]

For many meters, the diode test voltage is the same as that which it puts out when doing continuity tests. This voltage seems to have crept up and up in production models over the years,

It's for a reason.

The rest are considerably lower. Despite the need to test LED's, an "electronics meter" in the hands of a neophyte shouldn't be damaging sensitive components either.

I don't recall any threads saying "My Fluke87V destroyed XXXX", do you?

The reason is that the output is current limited - that voltage will drop instantly the moment you connect it to something.

Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?

For me it's the opposite: I would never buy one because of that.

[EEVblog]

Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?

For me it's the opposite: I would never buy one because of that.

I can remember when digital meters had a "Low Ohms" feature that limited the resistance compliance voltage so it didn't turn on PN junctions in-circuit.

[Shock]

I've been searching on the forum for discussions about diode voltage for multimeters

The Fluke 87V in diode mode outputs 7.29V on both my meters when measured with 10M impedance. When I measure the 87V with the LoZ 3k impedance of my Fluke 117 it measures about 2.6V according to this thread the 87V is sourcing about 1mA of current in diode mode.

[Fungus]

The Fluke 87V in diode mode outputs 7.29V on both my meters when measured with 10M impedance. When I measure the 87V with the LoZ 3k impedance of my Fluke 117 it measures about 2.6V according to this thread the 87V is sourcing about 1mA of current in diode mode.

ie, It's current limited.

If you measure a 300 Ohm resistor instead of that 3k resistor you'll see 0.26V.

If you measure a 30 Ohm resistor instead of that 300 Ohm resistor you'll see 0.026V.

etc.

The manual says that the short circuit current is "0.6 mA typical" on diode test range, "<200uA" on resistance range.

I'm surprised nobody went into that thread to set it straight.

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?

For me it's the opposite: I would never buy one because of that.

I can remember when digital meters had a "Low Ohms" feature that limited the resistance compliance voltage so it didn't turn on PN junctions in-circuit.

I wondered about this.

So far, I've only see a "Low ohms" description in the manual for the Fluke 80s (or at least the 87v and 88v), saying to put it in High Res mode, then select a low range when on ohms. Any idea if that works the same?

[rsjsouza]

The rest are considerably lower. Despite the need to test LED's, an "electronics meter" in the hands of a neophyte shouldn't be damaging sensitive components either.

I don't recall any threads saying "My Fluke87V destroyed XXXX", do you?

The reason is that the output is current limited - that voltage will drop instantly the moment you connect it to something.

The older VOMs used higher voltages on the low scale ohms. I damaged several of my dad's FND560 LED displays by testing them on our ICE 680R - it was like testing matches! 
(he was sooooo mad when he found out... My 8yo self will never forget)

Does anyone feel that the lower test voltage might be a selling point for the 87V MAX as a electronics meter? Or am I way off base here?

For me it's the opposite: I would never buy one because of that.

I can remember when digital meters had a "Low Ohms" feature that limited the resistance compliance voltage so it didn't turn on PN junctions in-circuit.

I remember that as well.

BTW, your U1272A probably has a very low-volt  ohms output - my U1273A sure has it. It is great for in-circuit measurements (I explored this here with the U1282A, U1273A, 189 and UT61E - sorry, in Portuguese).

[floobydust]

It was in the 80's DMM's all inherently had low V ohms, so you could measure resistance in-circuit without semiconductors getting in the way.  All the techs knew that was how DMM's worked. It works but at some point that aspect got lost I guess. I still have Beckman/Wavetek DMM's for that. Diode-test was for when you needed high compliance voltage.

This is all about the loss of the 9V battery with Fluke old analog IC's. No way to spin it for Fluke that the lower compliance voltage is a "feature".
Your Simpson 260 ohms Rx1 is 1.5V at 125mA that does damage semiconductors but works great "out in the wild" where high ohms test-current bites through oxides and organics on electrical connections.

Comparisons of 87V MAX to anything like 87V or 28II Fluke website does not allow it. Awww. What are you hiding.

Another reason for obsoleting the 87V is the newer PCB layout does have improved HV spacings for 61010. Still some mistakes- but a bit better compared to previous models.

[Johnboy]

Thanks to all for helping me to better understand this. I'm not trying to hijack the thread; it seems to me that since the diode test is one of the most glaring differences in the specs between the 87V and 87V MAX, it's begging the question "feature or bug"? I had hoped to determine what really is a safe voltage for doing continuity testing, and the answer may be that "it depends on the tolerances of the individual components in the circuit", that there are no hard and fast rules or overarching solution. I understand that current limiting on the meter's end to 1 mA tends to discourage damage, but when I looked at the thread linked above, I found it confusing.

There does not seem to be a consensus even among manufacturers what a suitable test voltage should be. If it's strong enough to light a blue LED, does that mean it's also too strong to get away with making an error in a test measurement of sensitive devices? There are no threads where someone complains that their 87V fried something... but since damage to semiconductors (whether by the meter or ESD) may not show up right away, the last thing a beginner will likely ask about a failed component is whether the meter could be the culprit. I think that's what David Hess seemed to be getting at in the last post in that thread. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.


 

[Fungus]

There are no threads where someone complains that their 87V fried something...

Right.

but since damage to semiconductors (whether by the meter or ESD) may not show up right away, the last thing a beginner will likely ask about a failed component is whether the meter could be the culprit. I think that's what David Hess seemed to be getting at in the last post in that thread. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

The voltage is a red herring because the output is a current source, not a voltage source.

The "voltage" number in the manual is only the maximum voltage that it can go to on a high resistance circuit. On a low resistance circuit it simply won't go that high.

The output is locked to 0.6mA, use Ohms Law to calculate the voltage you'll get in the DUT.

[tautech]

Johnboy, there are numerous threads on this matter to hunt out and one with some actual measurements:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/

[Johnboy]

The voltage is a red herring because the output is a current source, not a voltage source.

Yes, that is what I had found confusing. Thanks for being patient enough with me to explain more than once.

No way to spin it for Fluke that the lower compliance voltage is a "feature".

[Electro Detective]

'Low Ohms' labelling on multi function meters in the last few years can mean anything.. 
if not sure I'll test with another meter with a steady-ish 10 meg and 3k (Low-Z) input
and note what auto and manual range puts out what, and throw in a short or two.   

@ Noobs and overconfident knowalls: Watch out for 'Low Ohms' on insulation testers 

you don't want to be playing around sensitive electronicals with an insulation tester's 'Low Ohm' setting,
most units do about 6 volts OCV at a Short Circuit Current of 200ma, 0 to 40 ohms on the meter display etc = IIRC as it's been a while

Some models have a Continuity mode with low current, BUT kick in automatically with 200ma if they sense a short or anything lower than 200 to 40 ohms etc
There is no warning btw, that's just how they work, handy for unpowered electrical wiring tests and the like,
not so good for sensitive electronics/components.


Fluke 289 has it's own Low Ohm/50 Ohm thingie too, not to be confused with Low-Z parked on the other side,
or centrally located Continuity/Buzzer/Ohms/Diode/Nanoseafood(?!) modes   

Quote Fluke re LOW setting:
"Two terminal 50 ohm range with 1 milliohm resolution, 10 mA source current.           
Useful for measuring and comparing differences in motor winding resistance or contact resistance."

AFAICT many 'not so Low 's' are a test mode that sits between a 'standard' low voltage continuity test most are familiar with already, and a high voltage insulation test,
but the deceptive titled 'Low Ohms/Low ' puts out 200ma DC current at low voltage

i.e. If you own a 289, or a bells and whistles AIO multimeter with insulation test modes included, from any manufacturer, watch out for that!     

As per DJ's comment above, it pays to keep a whimpy meter or two hanging around that won't hammer in-circuit components,
or send too big a DC BANG! through a powered up (oops..) audio system 
 
Besides, isn't it fashion now to buy an ESR meter for checking dud caps in circuit,
and score a poorer techs Low Ohms feature as a side bonus?   


Correction/s to this comment are welcome if I've stuffed up   
 

EDIT:

Member Wytnucls quote/posted at > www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/msg477081/#msg477081

"If you want a Fluke, the cheap 101 has an open voltage of 0.53V and a test current of 178uA. The buzzer stops above 80 Ohms."

Nice to know, I only use the 101 for the buzzer, AC/DC
and suss situations where an expensive meter has no business going to first..   

[floobydust]

87V schematic the current-source DMM ASIC LTC984 (SSOP36) runs off +/-2.5V from two Vregs off 9V battery. Seems to be 5V coming in to it.
87 DMM IC 921606 (100 pin) ran off 9V-diode drop.
87V MAX/28II...  Must have a boost-converter on the board, I see one.

[Fungus]

87V schematic the current-source DMM ASIC LTC984 (SSOP36) runs off +/-2.5V from two Vregs off 9V battery. Seems to be 5V coming in to it.
87 DMM IC 921606 (100 pin) ran off 9V-diode drop.
87V MAX/28II...  Must have a boost-converter on the board, I see one.

That's probably how they got the extra battery life - by not throwing away half the electrons.

[Fungus]

EDIT:

Member Wytnucls quote/posted at > www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/msg477081/#msg477081

"If you want a Fluke, the cheap 101 has an open voltage of 0.53V and a test current of 178uA. The buzzer stops above 80 Ohms."

Nice to know, I only use the 101 for the buzzer, AC/DC
and suss situations where an expensive meter has no business going to first..   

That thread is completely bass-ackwards, stop quoting it

Worrying about the diode test voltage of a multimeter is like worrying that if you power some 5V logic chips with a 5V, 200A power supply, that the power supply is going to somehow forcing all 200A through those chips and burn them up. It isn't, Ohm's law prevents it. The number "200A" is only the maximum that it might supply if given the chance.

Multimeter diode tests are a current source, not a voltage source. The "voltage" number quoted is only the maximum that it can supply.

[Electro Detective]

Quoted that thread this one time about the 101 it for those of us chasing a cheap/er 'lower' ohm meter with 'open voltage of 0.53V and a test current of 178uA' specs

I was not aware of that spec, assuming the meter 'weak' in that regard due to the price point, without considering the advantages 

That thread was useful to me, perhaps others here too 

fwiw if I need a handheld diode barn door kicker, there's the 87V and 8060A
or a jerry rig car or motorbike battery to get a Lilliput style LED Rave thing going