Yet Another Question about what Scope+LA to buy under 1.5k ;D

[sobrinho]

Sorry if this was already asked too many times...

I have a master's in Electronics and Telecommunications but I never worked professionally as a EE either than some embedded systems work. I'm a professional programmer since the last 11y +- so this is just my robotics and embedded systems passion and hobbies.

I'm thinking about buying a MSO1074Z-S scope and a DP832 power supply. Should go around $1500 and I'm ok with that if this is equipment that will last at least 7-10 years. I like the decoding abilities and the fact everything is compacted into one single device since I don't plan on having a lot of space for it.

Things I'm looking for:
 - 50-200MHz
 - 4 channels
 - logic analyzer would be a good thing to have (more on that below)
 - protocol verification like SPI, I2C, CAN, JTAG, etc. I plan on working a lot with different types of sensors and uC communication (I'm planning on "trying" the I2C/SPI protocol decoding modules)
 - some signal processing (under 1-2 MHz)
 - durability

Scopes:
$ 835  - MSO1074Z    with update to 100 MHz (or 200MHz??)
$1068 - MSO1074Z-S with update to 100 MHz (or 200MHz??)
$ 585  - DS1074Z      with update to 100 MHz (or 200MHz??)
$ 818  - DS1074Z-S   with update to 100 MHz (or 200MHz??)
$ 399  - DS1054Z      with update to 100 MHz (or 200MHz??)

Power supplies:
$450  - DP832
any other to consider?

Logic Analyzer:
$599 Logic Pro 16 - Read some things here about it
$ ?? ZeroPlus Logic Cube - Also looks good?
any other to consider?

For that budget ($1500-$1650) should I be looking into another scope + power supply combination like:
 - Scope + Internal Logic Analyzer + Internal Signal Generator + DP832
 - Scope + Internal Logic Analyzer + External Signal Generator + DP832
 - Scope + External Logic Analyzer + Internal Signal Generator + DP832
 - Scope + External Logic Analyzer + External Signal Generator + DP832

I'm located in San Francisco in case you are wondering. By the way, any good place/website I can buy this with good prices?
Thank you very much for your time!

Regards
Sobrinho

[EEVblog]

The 4 channel DS1054Z (hacked) will do those serial decoding things, no need for the logic analyser. Otherwise get a cheap USB LA.

[MattSR]

I got the DS1054Z and a Saleae Logic Pro. The Saleae is great and it does things the DSO can't and vice-versa..


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[Dave92F1]

I'm a big fan, Dave, but I have to disagree. For logic the Saleae is way more useful than any MSO I've ever used.

I'm with MattSR.

[EEVblog]

I'm a big fan, Dave, but I have to disagree. For logic the Saleae is way more useful than any MSO I've ever used.

Yes, but the scope will often get the job done, especially one that has deep memory and serial decoding, for general use that will usually get you by. And you can see the waveform, which is always preferable over a logic analyser if possible. For that reason (and the convenience) the scope is usually my first tool I'll try.
Sure, the USB logic analyser is more useful and is handy to have, I'm not saying don't get one. I've always said you should have both.

[EEVblog]

For logic the Saleae is way more useful than any MSO I've ever used.

You've obviously never had to time correlate analog and digital signals. When you need that capability the MSO blows any logic analyser out of the water. MSO's are great to have if you can afford it.

[nctnico]

Besides that an MSO is a lot less hassle to setup. Deep memory negates the need for fancy triggering.

[Dave92F1]

You've obviously never had to time correlate analog and digital signals. When you need that capability the MSO blows any logic analyser out of the water. MSO's are great to have if you can afford it.

Well, yes, if you need to correlate like that you're right. But 99% of the time it's one or the other. (In my experience, anyway.)

I can't get over how nice the Saleae logic thing is...

[sobrinho]

Thanks for the feedback?
I can see that there is a split between MSO and LA.

Any really nice LA/capture software I should also be considering?

Would a LA also help the upgradability department because in 1-2 years external LA hardware and software will be much more advanced than a internal MSO but then again I like the fact that the LA can be tightly coupled with the analog part. Things like power spikes when inverting motors and stuff like that.

[nctnico]

Would a LA also help the upgradability department because in 1-2 years external LA hardware and software will be much more advanced than a internal MSO

Actually it is the other way around. Back in the old days you'd have an oscilloscope to look at analog signals and a logic analyser to look at digital signals. Then someone (at HP IIRC) thought it would be nice to put a logic probe and simple digital triggers onto an oscilloscope. That took off very well because it covers about 99% of the logic analysis needs and it is much faster to operate. Then they started to add things like serial decoding etc (in hardware) which the logic analysers didn't even had.

IMHO an MSO offers best bang for your buck. The cheap USB logic analysers are toys with poor probing, low samplerates or short memory. The older high end logic analysers do have better probing and more memory but they are slow and cumbersome to operate.

[Smokey]

There are two basic different types of questions people answer with logic analyzers.....

1) Is my (SPI/I2C/RS232/...) bus basically working?  And if not, what have I screwed up.  This is the best use for the 4 channel scope with decodes.  You can watch the analog signals and the timing and see what is wrong and fix it. 

2) What is that data bus doing over a long period of time?  This one is probably better suited for long captures like a stand alone logic analyzer or some way to dump to a computer for analysis.  Reverse engineering probably falls under this category as well since you might want to capture lots of data and store it.  You might be able to get away with scope decodes if you know exactly what you are looking for, but if you don't then you need to record everything.

Which one of those applies to you?

[sobrinho]

Well actually I expect to do both.

Analog checking if my uC or kernel driver is working properly, power and data line analysis for correct communication (RS485 and Can comes to mind) and in a near future some hardware decoding and probing.

I'm tempted to buy now a MSO1074Z-S since it is a good compact solution with extra features that are easy to turn on and then get a good standalone LA if I start digging into strange protocols or longer captures.

I might even play around with the LAN connection of the scope and do some computer decoding on my own, after all I'm a software  developer ?

Some questions remaining are: is the MSO1074Z-S upgradeable to 200MHz or am I better served with a DS1054Z/DS1074Z-S due to the bandwidth?

[sobrinho]

Hey there!

One member also mentioned the Siglent DSO2000. Any remarks about that one versus the rigol?

Thank you very much for all your help!

[McBryce]

There are two basic different types of questions people answer with logic analyzers.....

1) Is my (SPI/I2C/RS232/...) bus basically working?  And if not, what have I screwed up.  This is the best use for the 4 channel scope with decodes.  You can watch the analog signals and the timing and see what is wrong and fix it. 

2) What is that data bus doing over a long period of time?  This one is probably better suited for long captures like a stand alone logic analyzer or some way to dump to a computer for analysis.  Reverse engineering probably falls under this category as well since you might want to capture lots of data and store it.  You might be able to get away with scope decodes if you know exactly what you are looking for, but if you don't then you need to record everything.

Which one of those applies to you?

That's not all they are good for. My main work (on the hobby side of things) is restoring and repairing retro computers. I regularly use the LA to trigger on a particular word or address so that I can see what state some particular control pin was at that point or which IC had it's CE enabled. This doesn't need massive memory, just decent triggering and a friendly UI. I don't want to fire up a PC every time I want to take a measurement, so an MSO is my first choice.

McBryce.

[Howardlong]

I have both an MSO1074Z-S and a DP832, and most of what I do is low power, low voltage embedded RF hardware on PIC32 and Cortex M4 from NXP and TI.

I have found that I have never used the MSO1074Z-S LA feature other than just to try it out, pretty much everything I do is serial bus these days.

However, one great thing about the LA compared to USB type devices is that it is high speed, up to 500MSa/s for 8 digital channels (and one analogue channel) so it is possible to trace pretty much any single ended bus with it. It even supports some differential busses like LVDS. Maximum sample rate drops to 250MSa/s for anything more than 8 dig/1 ana.

You do lose one analogue channel with 8 LA channels, and a second analogue channel with 16 LA channels, not a big deal though.

Perhaps the biggest problem is trying to see all that information reasonably on the small screen.

Unexpectedly, what I do use a lot is the signal generator, it's really convenient to have  it integrated into such a small package. I do have a Hantek HDG2002 (upgraded), but I don't trust it, the software is buggy as hell.

I had someone round today in the market for a scope for use with PICs, showed him mine, he seemed adamant that he wanted the LA, he was doing some stuff with 16x2 parallel LCDs, using an 8 bit interface. In his case, he's an accomplished IT professional but not so much with practical electronics, and I had to concur with him that if you're learning and playing with 8 bit LCDs, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to have an LA feature in that case. (I did start suggesting using an I2C LCD, but then thought that that would add an unnecessary additional layer of complexity, as typically the I2C interface sits on top of the standard Hitachi i/f anyway).

I bought a DS1074Z-S for my nephew a couple of weeks back who is toying with making fuzz boxes, for him it makes a lot of sense as he doesn't have the benefit of a lab area, so having a basic sig gen integrated into the box made a lot of sense.

But for my use, the LA cables just sit in the bag unused.

[nctnico]

I had someone round today in the market for a scope for use with PICs, showed him mine, he seemed adamant that he wanted the LA, he was doing some stuff with 16x2 parallel LCDs, using an 8 bit interface. In his case, he's an accomplished IT professional but not so much with practical electronics, and I had to concur with him that if you're learning and playing with 8 bit LCDs

Not just learning. The timing can be tricky on those parallel LCDs so an MSO helps to check whether you got the timing right (or not).

[EEVblog]

Well, yes, if you need to correlate like that you're right. But 99% of the time it's one or the other. (In my experience, anyway.)
I can't get over how nice the Saleae logic thing is...

a) Not everyone has a PC ready to go right on their workbench and/or right next to the product they are working on. Having it all in your scope is just nicer and easier to use.
b) USB logic analysers almost always come with cheap crap probes.

I'm not saying the Saleae (and others) aren't good at what they do, but an MSO has some very big advantages. If those advantages aren't important to you and your workflow then that's fine, but to others they can be vital.
Personally, I can't get over how nice MSO's are.
Get back to me when you have wasted a few days because crap probing and inability to actually see your signal in the analog domain caused your lovely USB logic analyser to lead you up the garden path.
This is why I always probe digital signals with the scopes analog channels first. Then if that scope can do serial decoding on top of that using the existing analog channels, that's a huge win.

[nctnico]

I agree with Dave. I have seen people trying to solve a problem for weeks without result because they didn't bother to look at the signals with the analog channels first.

[MattSR]

Hence why the DS1054Z works fine for me. The analog channels have the same protocol decoders as the digital ones do.

Once I'm happy that the physical layer is working and I want to investigate the protocol/frame layer, then the Saleae interface is nice IMO.

The serial decoder, for example, is disabled on the DS1054Z once the horizontal timebase exceeds 100ms. The Saleae is only limited by host memory.

It's really horses for courses. I have both and find them both useful depending on what I'm doing.


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[sobrinho]

Great sum. Exactly what I needed!

I have both an MSO1074Z-S and a DP832, and most of what I do is low power, low voltage embedded RF hardware on PIC32 and Cortex M4 from NXP and TI.

I have found that I have never used the MSO1074Z-S LA feature other than just to try it out, pretty much everything I do is serial bus these days.

However, one great thing about the LA compared to USB type devices is that it is high speed, up to 500MSa/s for 8 digital channels (and one analogue channel) so it is possible to trace pretty much any single ended bus with it. It even supports some differential busses like LVDS. Maximum sample rate drops to 250MSa/s for anything more than 8 dig/1 ana.

You do lose one analogue channel with 8 LA channels, and a second analogue channel with 16 LA channels, not a big deal though.

Perhaps the biggest problem is trying to see all that information reasonably on the small screen.

Unexpectedly, what I do use a lot is the signal generator, it's really convenient to have  it integrated into such a small package. I do have a Hantek HDG2002 (upgraded), but I don't trust it, the software is buggy as hell.

I had someone round today in the market for a scope for use with PICs, showed him mine, he seemed adamant that he wanted the LA, he was doing some stuff with 16x2 parallel LCDs, using an 8 bit interface. In his case, he's an accomplished IT professional but not so much with practical electronics, and I had to concur with him that if you're learning and playing with 8 bit LCDs, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to have an LA feature in that case. (I did start suggesting using an I2C LCD, but then thought that that would add an unnecessary additional layer of complexity, as typically the I2C interface sits on top of the standard Hitachi i/f anyway).

I bought a DS1074Z-S for my nephew a couple of weeks back who is toying with making fuzz boxes, for him it makes a lot of sense as he doesn't have the benefit of a lab area, so having a basic sig gen integrated into the box made a lot of sense.

But for my use, the LA cables just sit in the bag unused.

[sobrinho]

After a few days of intense debate I finally choose to order a MSO1074Z-S and a DP832 from TEQUIPMENT and I even got the 6% EEVBLOG discount. They should arrive very soon!

Thank you all very much for your comments and opinions, I really appreciated it!
Sobrinho