Author Topic: TH2830 vs TH2832  (Read 53930 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #275 on: July 28, 2023, 12:13:39 am »
12 instead of 10nH is good, better as I expected with such a "low" testfrequency.
jXL is about 6mOhm - What Rdc have the coil ?

What's jXL?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 12:16:01 am by KungFuJosh »
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6266
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #276 on: July 28, 2023, 02:26:36 am »
XL is the reactance of the coil:

XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H)

"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #277 on: July 28, 2023, 02:44:02 am »
XL is the reactance of the coil:

XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H)

What's the j?

How did you get 6mΩ?

If XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H), then isn't it:
2 x Pi x 200000 x 0.000 000 012 = 0.01508? Or 15.08mΩ... My DCR was 130mΩ, I assume that's due to the fixture or correction being off or both?
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6266
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #278 on: July 28, 2023, 05:25:09 am »
Ah, I took 100khz and 10nH , my fault, it was late...

"j" stands for imaginary, we can omit this.
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 
The following users thanked this post: KungFuJosh

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27331
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #279 on: July 28, 2023, 09:00:27 am »
One of the benefits (not usually mentioned) of these LCR meters is the lower Z ranges, like DCR at 1 Ohm and ACR 3 Ohm ranges, where the DUT current can be as high as ~67ma. These ranges are below most quality DMMs like the KS34465A (100 ohms) and DMM6500 (10 ohms).
That statement may not be true as the 6.5 digit DMMs you mention have a lot higher accuracy compared to an LCR meter and you might be operating the LCR meter outside the range where it is most accurate when measuring low resistance values.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3511
  • Country: us
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2023, 02:35:44 pm »
One of the benefits (not usually mentioned) of these LCR meters is the lower Z ranges, like DCR at 1 Ohm and ACR 3 Ohm ranges, where the DUT current can be as high as ~67ma. These ranges are below most quality DMMs like the KS34465A (100 ohms) and DMM6500 (10 ohms).
That statement may not be true as the 6.5 digit DMMs you mention have a lot higher accuracy compared to an LCR meter and you might be operating the LCR meter outside the range where it is most accurate when measuring low resistance values.

Well it is true regarding the KS34465A vs Hioki IM3536 measuring below 100 milli-ohms, the KS spec per performance verification is an error within 4 milli-ohms after 24 hours, 3 milli-ohms within 24 hours on the lowest 100 ohm range. The IM3536 is a worst case 1% error of range at 100 milli-ohm range as base line specification, or 1 milli-ohm max error in 100 milli-ohm range.

The KS is fundamentally a more overall precise instrument for DC resistance measurements, however at the lowest range on the KS is 100 ohms, whereas the lowest range on the IM3536 is 100 miili-ohms, a thousand fold lower full range. One reason we acquired the Keithley DMM6500 was for the lower 10 ohm range, also the TH2830 has a 3 ohm DCR Range.

We haven't done much low resistance comparisons, but did find a note from 10/15/21 where we compared the TH2830 with the newly acquired DMM6500 and the KS34465A (didn't have the IM3536 then). The resistor was a Vishay 0.12 ohm that measured 0.120560, 0.12056 and 0.1197 ohms on the TH2830, DMM6500 and KS34465A respectively.

Anyway, for very low ohms measurements where the LCR meter utilize a much higher test current (KS uses just 1ma) and a much lower full scale range, we'll lean towards the LCR readings if the measurements differ much between the DMMs and LCR readings.

Of course the type and use of the precision Kelvin clips likely has more user induced error than the instruments themselves at these low R ranges  :o

BTW one shouldn't discount these modern bench type LCR meters regarding overall accuracy and ability to resolve small impedances. Likely they employ the modern single chip SD 24 bit ADCs, like some of the newer DMMs do, which are quite remarkable in achieving performance levels usually attributed to more complicated and costly full circuit designs.
 
Best,   
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 03:11:15 pm by mawyatt »
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Fan

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6266
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #281 on: July 28, 2023, 03:14:03 pm »
XL is the reactance of the coil:

XL= 2*pi*f(Hz)*L(H)

Today I measured the 1µH coil from my DMMCheck unit with our ST2830 at work, then calculate by hand with a calculator whether the displayed values are consistent.
XL = 2pi*f*L = 6.28*100khz*1.0235µH = 0.643 Ohm
Impedance Z = SQR R²+X² = SQR 0.09696²+ 0.64303² = 0.6503 Ohm.
Well, they are...
And this was just for fun. 8)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 03:16:11 pm by Martin72 »
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, KungFuJosh

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #282 on: August 22, 2023, 01:58:25 am »
This is kinda awesome... I made a 2nd version of my meter reference board, but this version uses 4mm pads, and I added 3 separate individual kelvin tests for low value L, C, and R. I slapped in a 10nH to test, and it worked!

"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 
The following users thanked this post: ch_scr, MegaVolt

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3511
  • Country: us
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #283 on: August 22, 2023, 03:11:01 am »
That's impressive being able to measure 10nH with Kelvin Clips, would think the cable and clips themselves would limit lower inductance measurements. Did you Open/Short calibrate using the pads?

Also, were you able to measure the 10nH in your SMD fixture? Would think this would give more repeatable results than Kelvin Clips and mounted SMD device.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #284 on: August 22, 2023, 03:49:21 am »
That's impressive being able to measure 10nH with Kelvin Clips, would think the cable and clips themselves would limit lower inductance measurements. Did you Open/Short calibrate using the pads?

Also, were you able to measure the 10nH in your SMD fixture? Would think this would give more repeatable results than Kelvin Clips and mounted SMD device.

Best,

The cables are definitely a limiting factor. I had to perform short calibration a few times to get them to a good place. The key was to check that the short read close enough to zero once switching back to the measurement screen. For those measurements, short read around 0.5nH, which was close enough for me. Some methods of shorting (including shorting to themselves) left the zero measurement off by way too much to be useful for anything in the low nH range. Self shorting gave very inconsistent results.

Making sure the clips were well connected, without physical interference was also important. That's why the PCB is elevated in the photo. I also had to put a tiny drop of solder on the test pads so the clips could hold on well, without contacting too much of the board.

I left the clips connected for a while to see how stable it was, and it averaged around 9.5nH (attached).

Yes, the SMD fixture works for 10nH. However, I hate using the SMD fixture for reference testing. It takes hours to go through components individually with the SMD fixture. I can blow through this PCB really fast with the kelvin clips. Nothing needs to be perfect for me, it simply has to show it's close enough in a given range. These tests have shown where the firmware issues still exist, which thankfully isn't so much anymore.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3511
  • Country: us
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #285 on: August 22, 2023, 02:12:57 pm »
One of the keys in measurements of low impedance DUTs shows in the Vm reading on the screen at 1.96mV. That's a small voltage to resolve accurately, and especially sensitive to the method and fixture utilized as well as the the Short Calibration. Repeatability is another potential issue, if one can get reasonably close readings at different times with reassembled setups for a stable given DUT.

Anyway, looks like you've got your enabled TH2832 working well. What's the latest on the enablement, were you able to resolve the various issues?

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
The following users thanked this post: KungFuJosh

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #286 on: August 22, 2023, 02:36:02 pm »
Anyway, looks like you've got your enabled TH2832 working well. What's the latest on the enablement, were you able to resolve the various issues?

In general, it's been great with the 2021 ST2832 firmware. I have a couple errors listed above in reply 258. 700mH inductor reading is bad, and 100Ω DCR is a bug, and comes back not a number (nanKΩ). High frequency 100KΩ is also out of spec. At 1kHZ it's 100.053, but by 100kHz it's 97.8953, then at 200kHz it drops to 86.0723.

The ST guys have been having trouble getting TH to do anything about it though. There's also one dumb thing they should fix- it says CELAR RAM instead of CLEAR RAM lol.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline oz2cpu

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 860
  • Country: dk
    • webx.dk private hobby and diy stuff
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #287 on: August 22, 2023, 03:14:07 pm »
did they ever fix DC ohm, to actually measure at ZERO HZ ?!?!

Radioamateur OZ2CPU, Senior EE at Prevas
EMC RF SMPS SI PCB LAYOUT and all that stuff.
youtube : oz2cpu teardown
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #288 on: August 22, 2023, 04:32:18 pm »
did they ever fix DC ohm, to actually measure at ZERO HZ ?!?!

I dunno. I tested DCR on two frequency counters and my scope, and they all say about 12Hz. That's tested with the kelvin leads.

Edit: I just ran a coax cable directly to the LCR, and it gets the same ~12Hz. Tested with coax to the scope, same deal (attached) though 11.36Hz was more common than the jump to 13Hz that made me average it to 12Hz. 🤷
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 04:43:33 pm by KungFuJosh »
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3511
  • Country: us
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #289 on: August 22, 2023, 11:34:15 pm »
did they ever fix DC ohm, to actually measure at ZERO HZ ?!?!

This might be a "DC" measurement but with flipping the polarity to remove thermal EMF and other offsets, so the 12Hz would be the flipping rate, but I'm not sure about this. Might take a look later.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #290 on: August 23, 2023, 02:45:33 pm »
This might be a "DC" measurement but with flipping the polarity to remove thermal EMF and other offsets, so the 12Hz would be the flipping rate, but I'm not sure about this. Might take a look later.

I'm curious if it's the same on yours and the other LCRs discussed here. Also curious if it actually matters.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #291 on: August 23, 2023, 10:08:31 pm »
I asked about it, and this is what one of the ST guys said:

Quote
well, it is sort DC, just in sections ... and it is definitely not a sinus either.
The reasons for alternating polarity are that by joining different metals, you usually get a thermocouple contact which adds a temperature-dependent voltage. To eliminate its effects, common practice is to measure in different directions and determine the average. Also, if you use unidirectional current on a cored inductor, the core will go into saturation, and remanence will mess with subsequent other measurements.
The disadvantage is it doesn't work so well with large inductances where the current takes longer to settle than the alternation time.

The 2830 series has basically the same functions and menu structure as the 2829 series, but as it is a stripped-down version, not all of them are implemented in the 283x. DCR POL is one of them. It was planned to add a setting other than ALT later, but by then the hardware apparently was designed in a way that wouldn't allow switching between alternation and not, so they told me years ago they couldn't add it just in firmware.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline GnomeZA

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 125
  • Country: za
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #292 on: December 14, 2023, 12:35:42 am »
If somebody with a 2830 wants to test, the failures on mine were:
100uF was lower than expected (100uF read as 83uF; 2832 saw it as 90uF).
100nH read as 100.045 on the ST2832, and read as 180.321 on the TH2830.

This thread died down a bit but I was wondering if you were still running the ST2832 firmware?
And do you generally use that or are you sticking to the original firmware day to day and only using the other firmware to play around with?

Also it is bizarre that based on your data you posted above even the TH2830 original firmware seems to have some strange readings (100nH)
 

Online KungFuJoshTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1955
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #293 on: December 14, 2023, 01:05:55 am »
If somebody with a 2830 wants to test, the failures on mine were:
100uF was lower than expected (100uF read as 83uF; 2832 saw it as 90uF).
100nH read as 100.045 on the ST2832, and read as 180.321 on the TH2830.

This thread died down a bit but I was wondering if you were still running the ST2832 firmware?
And do you generally use that or are you sticking to the original firmware day to day and only using the other firmware to play around with?

Also it is bizarre that based on your data you posted above even the TH2830 original firmware seems to have some strange readings (100nH)

I do still run the ST2832 FW. It still has a couple bugs, but otherwise is excellent. I'm hoping ST acquires a new FW version and shares it, but it's been radio silence from them for a while. Understandable, since I didn't actually purchase from them.

Maybe somebody with an ST purchased device could reach out for newer firmware. 😉
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 
The following users thanked this post: GnomeZA

Offline GnomeZA

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 125
  • Country: za
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #294 on: December 19, 2023, 11:16:34 am »
If somebody with a 2830 wants to test, the failures on mine were:
100uF was lower than expected (100uF read as 83uF; 2832 saw it as 90uF).
100nH read as 100.045 on the ST2832, and read as 180.321 on the TH2830.

This thread died down a bit but I was wondering if you were still running the ST2832 firmware?
And do you generally use that or are you sticking to the original firmware day to day and only using the other firmware to play around with?

Also it is bizarre that based on your data you posted above even the TH2830 original firmware seems to have some strange readings (100nH)

I do still run the ST2832 FW. It still has a couple bugs, but otherwise is excellent. I'm hoping ST acquires a new FW version and shares it, but it's been radio silence from them for a while. Understandable, since I didn't actually purchase from them.

Maybe somebody with an ST purchased device could reach out for newer firmware. 😉

I may have missed it in this thread, but where did you get the original TH2830 firmware? (and what was the date code)
I bought a TH2830 from AliExpress and it has firmware with date code "2022-05-31"
Any chance you could try get the latest from the Sourcetronic folks, or maybe you can tell me how exactly you asked them for it? (did you just email?)
I'm hesitant to do go backward in time in terms of firmware given your previous experience, not to mention bugs that have been (hopefully) been fixed
« Last Edit: December 19, 2023, 11:46:24 am by GnomeZA »
 

Offline GnomeZA

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 125
  • Country: za
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #295 on: December 19, 2023, 12:17:14 pm »
Ok so update after playing with the meter some more.

My TH2830 was calibrated 2023-12-05 (YY-MM-DD) based on the report with the meter (yeah wow, buying from AliExpress factory store has some advantages I guess).
The meter was double boxed and sealed with Tonghui tape, so I doubt they replaced the report
The firmware for my TH2830 is clearly newer than any available on this thread and the version I have has the following that KungFuJosh was missing:

1. Arbitrary frequency up to 100kHZ
2. DCR measurement

What is missing:

1. Frequency > 100kHz
2. Bias adjustment, the item is there but it shows "----" and no amount of pressing and messing with it makes it available.

I'm not quite willing to risk the calibration and bugs in exchange for those two features.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2023, 12:29:02 pm by GnomeZA »
 

Offline pope

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 329
  • Country: pl
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #296 on: December 19, 2023, 12:41:42 pm »
Ok so update after playing with the meter some more.

My TH2830 was calibrated 2023-12-05 (YY-MM-DD) based on the report with the meter (yeah wow, buying from AliExpress factory store has some advantages I guess).
The meter was double boxed and sealed with Tonghui tape, so I doubt they replaced the report
The firmware for my TH2830 is clearly newer than any available on this thread and the version I have has the following that KungFuJosh was missing:

1. Arbitrary frequency up to 100kHZ
2. DCR measurement

What is missing:

1. Frequency > 100kHz
2. Bias adjustment, the item is there but it shows "----" and no amount of pressing and messing with it makes it available.

I'm not quite willing to risk the calibration and bugs in exchange for those two features.

Sorry for being out of topic but you ordered from aliexpress 3-4 days ago and you already got it?
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline mawyatt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3511
  • Country: us
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #297 on: December 19, 2023, 02:10:06 pm »
Ok so update after playing with the meter some more.

My TH2830 was calibrated 2023-12-05 (YY-MM-DD) based on the report with the meter (yeah wow, buying from AliExpress factory store has some advantages I guess).
The meter was double boxed and sealed with Tonghui tape, so I doubt they replaced the report
The firmware for my TH2830 is clearly newer than any available on this thread and the version I have has the following that KungFuJosh was missing:

1. Arbitrary frequency up to 100kHZ
2. DCR measurement

What is missing:

1. Frequency > 100kHz
2. Bias adjustment, the item is there but it shows "----" and no amount of pressing and messing with it makes it available.

I'm not quite willing to risk the calibration and bugs in exchange for those two features.

1) Believe the TH2830 offers 5 digit resolution (display) for all frequencies from 50 to 100KHz, ours does :-+

2) The 2830 has no built in DC Bias (enabled), think this comes with the 2832. If you build the DC Bias Adapter we disclosed, then you have much more DC Bias Range than what the 2832 offers, so capability is easily available.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
The following users thanked this post: GnomeZA

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27331
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #298 on: December 19, 2023, 02:29:34 pm »
Ok so update after playing with the meter some more.

My TH2830 was calibrated 2023-12-05 (YY-MM-DD) based on the report with the meter (yeah wow, buying from AliExpress factory store has some advantages I guess).
Any link to the Tonghui Aliexpress factory store?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline luudee

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 281
  • Country: th
Re: TH2830 vs TH2832
« Reply #299 on: December 19, 2023, 02:58:01 pm »

Any link to the Tonghui Aliexpress factory store?

Hi Nico,

I bought my unit from this shop (3 years ago):

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000131204659.html

I don't think that is the factory store.

Also, considering the very shitty support, I would advise against Tonghui.
I have never received any firmware updates or bug fixes ...

Cheers,
rudi
 
The following users thanked this post: KungFuJosh


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf