Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 18651863 times)

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Offline dazz1

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HP 3721A Correlator
« Reply #136750 on: September 25, 2024, 04:47:18 am »
Hi
In 1985 I was at University and learned a method for tuning and characterising control loops using noise and statistical analysis.  I didn't know that a specific item of test equipment was available to do that method, and more.  A correlator is really good and dragging known signals from below the noise floor, and doing statistical analysis in the time and frequency domains.

Roll forward almost 40 years and some how I saw the HP 3721A Correlator on an auction site.  The seller was located only 6km from my home with a low reserve price.  At first I didn't realise what it did until I Google showed me a little information about it, including the operator manual.  Then I realised what it could do.  The manuals are dated May 1971, and for its time, it is a very capable and quite amazing item of test equipment. 

I was the only bidder.

In 1976 the HP catalogue had the price of the HP 3721A  listed at $USD10,125.
To get the most out of the HP 3721A also required the HP 3722A Pseudo-random noise generator priced at $USD3,600 and,
the HP 3720A Spectrum Analyser Display priced at $USD7,265.

In 1971 import duty was about 130% plus the excessive cost of shipping and fees.  This trio of matching test equipment was priced at about the same as a nice house.  Although a government department made the purchase, it seems it could only afford the HP 3721A.  This was an expensive item of test equipment.  I suspect it has only survived for so many years because it cost too much to throw away.

It powers up and the CRT is crisp.  The only concerning thing is that the service manual has the parts section book marked.  The manuals are dated 1971 but other documents show the HP 3721A was shipped to Australia to be calibrated in 1983.  That would have been very expensive. 

The fan mod is ugly but well executed. 

This instrument is capable of a lot of things and learning to get the most from it will be a steep learning curve.

The HP 3721A was sold as faulty.  I need to run through the 22 page performance check to see if it does have a fault.
The performance check and the calibration procedure specify the HP 3722A Noise Generator is required.  I don't foresee any danger of obtaining an HP 3722A under any reasonable circumstances, so I will need to make an equivalent with modern parts.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 05:42:59 am by dazz1 »
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Offline dazz1

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HP 3721A Correlator Knobs
« Reply #136751 on: September 25, 2024, 04:49:42 am »
Hi
The HP 3721A is in good condition except for 3 broken knobs.  HP part numbers are:
00180-67402
00220-67402
and the small knob for switch 3100-0643  (the part number for the small knob is not listed in the manual).

I'd really like to get replacement knobs to fully restore the HP 3712A.   Any pointers to a supplier would be much appreciated.
EDIT: I have just scanned e-bay for knobs and the prices are eye-watering. 

« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 05:30:31 am by dazz1 »
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Offline onsokumaru

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136752 on: September 25, 2024, 07:23:14 am »
Great device, I glad you managed to get it  ^-^
I stumbled upon this device, and I really don't know what it is used for, do you have any clue? It looks similar to an spectrum analyzer (and as heavy and big) that came in the same lot. I took a brief peek at the manual to try to figure out the intended functionality of the device, but I still can't figure it out  :P
 
 

Online tautech

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Re: HP 3721A Correlator Knobs
« Reply #136753 on: September 25, 2024, 07:36:46 am »
Hi
The HP 3721A is in good condition except for 3 broken knobs.  HP part numbers are:
00180-67402
00220-67402
and the small knob for switch 3100-0643  (the part number for the small knob is not listed in the manual).

I'd really like to get replacement knobs to fully restore the HP 3712A.   Any pointers to a supplier would be much appreciated.
EDIT: I have just scanned e-bay for knobs and the prices are eye-watering.
Check here for 3dp models that might fit:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/replacement-knobs-feet-and-fittings-for-test-equipment/msg2255118/#msg2255118
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136754 on: September 25, 2024, 08:10:58 am »
That control systems analyzer? Without looking at the datasheet, i imagine it would be what we nowadays call an FRA (Frequency Response Ananlyzer)?
 
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Offline wkb

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Offline onsokumaru

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136756 on: September 25, 2024, 08:56:49 am »
Thanks, looks like this device is much more interesting than I thought at first sight.
 

Offline squadchannel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136757 on: September 25, 2024, 08:58:25 am »
The 3563A is the 3562A with digital inputs.

The 3562A is a "dynamic signal analyzer"

It is basically an FFT analyzer; it can plot frequency response from 64uHz-100KHz, measure transients, etc.
It looks like the original application was measuring sensors used in mechanical engineering. I am not sure.

SAs that can measure even low frequencies are hard to find, and even if they are available, they are expensive.
The 3562A is large, heavy, and equipped with a blurry CRT, but I consider it a good, cheap measuring instrument.

It has an internal signal generator, so it can be used for the purpose of measuring the characteristics of audio amplifiers.

I heard that it can also measure distortion, but the internal generator does not reach the great performance of the 8903A.

I also got a 3562A few months ago and am in the process of repairing it. I bought mine for $100. All the capacitors have been replaced.

I am looking to check out an amplifier I built myself.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 09:03:36 am by squadchannel »
 
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Offline onsokumaru

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136758 on: September 25, 2024, 09:04:40 am »
Yes, it has like a lot of "digital" connectors on the back side. This will require a patient deeper look to the manual  ;D
 

Offline dazz1

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HP 3563A
« Reply #136759 on: September 25, 2024, 10:48:07 am »
Hi
The HP 3563A looks like the successor to the HP 3721A Correlator but also combines the HP 3722A Noise source and the HP 3720A spectrum analyzer in one unit.  What was three is now one.
I can see the HP 3563A being a really useful item for signal analysis in the time and frequency domains. 

https://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Agilent-3563A-Datasheet.pdf
Dazz

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Offline factory

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Re: HP 3721A Correlator
« Reply #136760 on: September 25, 2024, 03:00:35 pm »
Hi
In 1985 I was at University and learned a method for tuning and characterising control loops using noise and statistical analysis.  I didn't know that a specific item of test equipment was available to do that method, and more.  A correlator is really good and dragging known signals from below the noise floor, and doing statistical analysis in the time and frequency domains.

Roll forward almost 40 years and some how I saw the HP 3721A Correlator on an auction site.  The seller was located only 6km from my home with a low reserve price.  At first I didn't realise what it did until I Google showed me a little information about it, including the operator manual.  Then I realised what it could do.  The manuals are dated May 1971, and for its time, it is a very capable and quite amazing item of test equipment. 

I was the only bidder.

In 1976 the HP catalogue had the price of the HP 3721A  listed at $USD10,125.
To get the most out of the HP 3721A also required the HP 3722A Pseudo-random noise generator priced at $USD3,600 and,
the HP 3720A Spectrum Analyser Display priced at $USD7,265.

In 1971 import duty was about 130% plus the excessive cost of shipping and fees.  This trio of matching test equipment was priced at about the same as a nice house.  Although a government department made the purchase, it seems it could only afford the HP 3721A.  This was an expensive item of test equipment.  I suspect it has only survived for so many years because it cost too much to throw away.

It powers up and the CRT is crisp.  The only concerning thing is that the service manual has the parts section book marked.  The manuals are dated 1971 but other documents show the HP 3721A was shipped to Australia to be calibrated in 1983.  That would have been very expensive. 

The fan mod is ugly but well executed. 

This instrument is capable of a lot of things and learning to get the most from it will be a steep learning curve.

The HP 3721A was sold as faulty.  I need to run through the 22 page performance check to see if it does have a fault.
The performance check and the calibration procedure specify the HP 3722A Noise Generator is required.  I don't foresee any danger of obtaining an HP 3722A under any reasonable circumstances, so I will need to make an equivalent with modern parts.

There aren't many of those 3721A Correlators about, only 610 were made, between 1968 & 1979.
There are even less 3720A Spectrum Displays about, only 220 were made, this one was introduced four years later than the 3721A and discontinued at the same time.
But you might find the 3722A Noise Generator slightly easier to find, this one was the first of the trio, introduced in 1967 and discontinued in 1980, 1590 were made.

I think you might need a newer edition of the manual, the prefix is 1850U, this is the design revision for week 50 of 1978 (this indicates it was made at or after that date), possibly amongst the last batch(es) made at the HP South Queensferry plant in Scotland.
The parts you reference are for an older version, a part number starting with five digits such as "00180" indicates the equipment that part was first used on, in this case "00180" would be the 180 series oscilloscope and the knobs are quite different to those on your later correlator.

Attached are some pictures of an older version (saved from ePay), if your 3721A had those "180" series knobs, they wouldn't be broken, the later winged knobs are some of the most common to find snapped off.

P.S. The delay offset switch might be an option (one of the two on the back?), I've seen at least two of them without this control. Edit: Three if you count the preserved 3721A, which is a museum piece now, along with a very early 3722A, both are in the National Museum of Scotland.

David
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 03:16:16 pm by factory »
 
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Offline dazz1

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HP 3721A Correlator exposed
« Reply #136761 on: September 25, 2024, 10:15:05 pm »
Hi
I opened up the HP 3721A today to do a visual check and clean as required.  No sign of any repairs or charred parts.
It only had a thin layer of dust, so used, but not excessively.

All of the PCBs are gold plated.  None of that crappy solder mask or conformal coating stuff.

All the controls and lamps work.  No LEDs here.  Just hot wire.
I have not yet applied any signals so I don't yet know if it is functional.
The CRT is better than seen in the photos.  It is razor sharp.
The vertical on the trace is unsteady and vertical varies with intensity, so probably a developing power supply fault there to fix (a new repair thread). 

The 50 pin digital I/O port preceded GPIB and was designed to connect to the early HP computers.  All comms is controlled via hard wired logic in the HP 3721A. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 03:03:24 am by dazz1 »
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Offline dazz1

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Re: HP 3721A Correlator
« Reply #136762 on: September 25, 2024, 11:20:03 pm »

I think you might need a newer edition of the manual, the prefix is 1850U, this is the design revision for week 50 of 1978 (this indicates it was made at or after that date), possibly amongst the last batch(es) made at the HP South Queensferry plant in Scotland.

...
David

Hi
I know I am a geek when the date of a manual is an interesting topic  :-+

The serial number of the HP 3712A is: 1850U00685
The manual says it is for "Serials prefixed: U985 and 1051U"
"For instruments with Serial Prefixes lower than U985 refer to Section IX, Manual Changes"
"For instruments with Serial Prefixes higher than 1051U refer to the separate Manual Changes Sheet"

The manual includes a separate change sheet.

The manuals that came with the unit are genuine originals so in the absence of other information, I have to assume they are for my unit.  The manual was printed May 1971, so not sure yet how that compares to the date of the unit.

The auction listing included a photo of a dated PCB but this could be a replacement part.    It has a solder mask and no gold plating.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 11:24:58 pm by dazz1 »
Dazz

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Offline dazz1

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HP 3721A Correlator
« Reply #136763 on: September 26, 2024, 01:33:52 am »

There aren't many of those 3721A Correlators about, only 610 were made, between 1968 & 1979.
There are even less 3720A Spectrum Displays about, only 220 were made, this one was introduced four years later than the 3721A and discontinued at the same time.
But you might find the 3722A Noise Generator slightly easier to find, this one was the first of the trio, introduced in 1967 and discontinued in 1980, 1590 were made.
At the time, the HP 3721A was so expensive and so difficult to import, it is likely to be the only one in New Zealand.    Govt. mandated monopolies meant that HP equipment could only be imported by HP.  Any import company had to apply for an import license for a specific brand of product, and only one company could have a license for each brand.  HP could charge whatever it liked knowing that it had a monopoly in New Zealand.   It was almost impossible for citizens to buy foreign currency.  Duty, import fees and shipping costs probably made the 3721A 3x the HP listed price.  As a result, generations of public servants learned to never dispose of valuable equipment, because it was so expensive and difficult to replace.  That is probably the reason this 3721A survived.

Given that the 3720A were made to work with the 3721A, I can't imagine many, if any have survived.  The chances of me finding one are practically zero.
I have found one very rough 3722A noise generator on e-bay, but too expensive and too beaten up to import.  The 3721A correlator really needs to be partnered to a pseudo random noise generator.  I am looking at using a Raspberry Pi or something to write a software noise generator.

Attached are some pictures of an older version (saved from ePay), if your 3721A had those "180" series knobs, they wouldn't be broken, the later winged knobs are some of the most common to find snapped off.
I really want to replace the broken knobs. 
The part numbers I have seem to match the knobs I have.  I can't find the part number for the broken double decker knob.

P.S. The delay offset switch might be an option (one of the two on the back?), I've seen at least two of them without this control. Edit: Three if you count the preserved 3721A, which is a museum piece now, along with a very early 3722A, both are in the National Museum of Scotland.

David

My 3721A is fitted with option 19 Delay Offset and option 20 Computer Interface.
It would be an interesting project to get the interface working with something modern.
It would be even more interesting to link it to an original HP computer as intended, but no danger of finding one of those here.

The 3720A Spectrum display has a frequency range: 0.005 Hz to 250 kHz using the internal 3721A clock.  My Siglent SA only goes down to 9kHz.  Any  3720A's were probably dumped along with the paired 3721A.

I have started a new topic for the repair and restoration this HP 3721A here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/vintage-hp-3721a-correlator-repair-restoration-and-enhancement/msg5655235/#msg5655235
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 10:55:13 am by dazz1 »
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Offline khs

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136764 on: September 26, 2024, 08:30:09 pm »
Scope works perfectly but whenever it decides to start misbehaving, it will be the end for him... this beast is so complicated (with no proper service manual to boot) that I just wouldn't be able to fix it.

Here you can find the service manuals for the TEK 11401:
https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/11401

After auto-calibration the 11K oscilloscopes are quite accurate (about 1%) and have a quite short overdrive recovery time of 50 ns from a 2V step at 1 mV/div for the 11A32.

So it looks to be worth to keep the monster running..

 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136765 on: September 28, 2024, 06:48:16 am »
Yeah, silly me.... indeed Tekwiki has all the manuals and turns out I had already downloaded them all 3 years ago when I bought that scope ! So manuals we have indeed....
I guess I am losing it, getting old...

1,300 pages or something worth of manuals.... impressive... one would almost need AI to read through all that and help you find the information you need !  :-DD

There is even a small inside paper relating the design history of the scope, was a fun and interesting read !  :-+
.... which sums up as...basically it's a miracle that Tek managed to make that scope... was allllmost too much to chew !
« Last Edit: September 28, 2024, 07:14:57 am by Vince »
 

Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136766 on: September 28, 2024, 07:43:46 am »
More herbs for brightening your mind.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline marcumr

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136767 on: September 28, 2024, 12:56:41 pm »
Vince hello.

You found a girlfriend
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136768 on: September 28, 2024, 01:10:56 pm »
Ah but Italy is too far away, I only consume local !  >:D
Thanks for the offer regardless !  >:D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2024, 01:13:46 pm by Vince »
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136769 on: September 29, 2024, 03:30:27 pm »
I picked up another 3458a on the cheap, with failed settings ram. A quick front panel reset cleared the error. I then dumped the cal ram.  :box:

Now it needs the workover, FRAM replacements for the Dallas cal and settings chips, a new line filter, ps electrolytic replacements, firmware update, and option 1 memory addition.

Oh, and need to check if it drifts or not.  ???

 
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Offline wkb

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136770 on: September 29, 2024, 04:18:38 pm »
 :palm:  "Another"

Congrats!

I did not get any further than 1.5 bumperkits for my E4418E RF power meters on yesterday's ham fair.  1.5 as in: one kit only has the rear bumper and lacks the handle. But I am not complaining at € 5 for the lot.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 04:20:49 pm by wkb »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136771 on: September 29, 2024, 05:04:16 pm »
I picked up another 3458a on the cheap,...

I hate you  :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136772 on: September 29, 2024, 07:53:05 pm »
Hate me too, I just picked up a Wiltron / Anritsu 71N50 power sensor for £150.
Not a bargain?
Well it came with a Anritsu Sitemaster S331A (25MHz - 3300MHz), pelicase etc.  ;D
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136773 on: September 29, 2024, 08:21:48 pm »
Hate me too, I just picked up a Wiltron / Anritsu 71N50 power sensor for £150.
Not a bargain?
Well it came with a Anritsu Sitemaster S331A (25MHz - 3300MHz), pelicase etc.  ;D

Don't care. :P

Yah boo sucks to you too.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline unseenninja

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #136774 on: September 30, 2024, 09:00:43 pm »
I picked up another 3458a on the cheap, ...

He says, casually.

Do you have access to a secret stash of sensibly priced 3458A multimeters?
Care to share?
 


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