Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 18280726 times)

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Offline KG7AMV

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135650 on: January 09, 2024, 08:10:58 pm »
TEA Struck Again.. A Vintage Sencore VC93 TV All Format VCR Analyzer  Powers On (For Parts Not Working Ebay Deal) Photos Were Poor Garbled Display.

Ebay Link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124141061841



Firmware is Posted on My Blog and Uploaded to Xdevs doc repo.
https://www.stevenrhine.com/?p=133059



Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135651 on: January 09, 2024, 09:52:09 pm »
I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?!  :o

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!  :-//

Standard practice on many auctions. It allows many lots to be proceeding simultaneously, while allowing people to bid on multiple lots without worrying about sniping. It also allows bidders to have time to think, thus realising the highest price.

Basically it mimics what happens in an auction room, one lot at a time.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Online Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135652 on: January 09, 2024, 10:02:02 pm »
OK OK... I guess I only experienced Ebay so I assumed it was the standard way of doing auctions.

You live 'n learn as they say !  ;D

 

Offline EggertEnjoyer123

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135653 on: January 09, 2024, 11:27:52 pm »
There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

The 400 bucks meter just turned into a 850 one.....
Just watched the end of the auction live.

I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?!  :o

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!  :-//
Standard practice on some auction sites. If you make a bid in the last X minutes it resets the clock to let other people respond.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135654 on: January 09, 2024, 11:42:13 pm »
I do not know if I belong but I have an affliction where I find myself just gazing at the VFDs and my blue backlit LCD on my 3478.  I also find myself buying things "just because".  Like an Agilent u1252A "just because" it was $125 (perfect except battery lock needed new plastic pin).  Or a Phillips PM 2525 which I like because of the motorized switch.

I also love precision measurement ( I work down to 500 microMeters).

OK.  My question is about isolation transformers (ad nauseum, I know).  But when I was young we used em.  But those were the same days in which I subscribed to subscription kits advertised in Pop Elec that had you build different tube ckts on a cardboard platform with perfboard (I wonder why they stopped making those?).

So I am aware accepted practice changes as a result of incident post mortems.  I was taught you only needed to isolate the DUT.  But I read a post here that even the TE to be used must be isolated.  Then I read another post that said the use of isolation transformers is no longer an accepted industry practice.

I work in an area where risk mitigation is high on the list (tree felling).  So I have no interest in being a "he-man" nor am I risk averse.

I am well and truly confused. |O

Here is a scenario.  Using a scope on an old TV (imaginary) by following the signal from the tuner.  Good earth grounds on all equipment.  Bench is covered ESD rubber surface.  Rubber on floor.

Isolate the TV or no?
Isolate the TV AND the Scope?
No isolation at all and know what you are doing (differential probe is best, but maybe not available?)

Using a DMM

Isolate the TV?
Isolate TV and Bench mounted DMM?  Leave the DMM earthed?
Use the Agilent 1252A?

Role of hand coverings?  Nitrile, rubber, etc

What are the authoritative sources for best practices? Ideally from industry trade associations that derive these practices from existing regulatory bodies (code and workplace safety).

Thanks!

As you say practices change. In this case it is due to incidents with old practices and also the avaiability of new technology.
If you use an isolation transformer for shock protection then ALL equipment being used must be isolated from mains earth. Ideally there should not be any earthed conductive items in reach.
The new technology includes earth leakage circuit breakers and test equipment with fully isolated inputs e.g. Tek THS700 series 'scopes.
Very difficult to give specific advice without knowing the EXACT set-up i.e a site vist.
Generically use a earth leakage circuit breaker and take care. Do Nnot use an isolation transformer.

Robert G8RPI.

What really grinds my gears is that people think that using an isolation transformer is for personal safety reasons. It is not, and does not provide ANY safety for the person working on a device. It is PURELY and SOLELY to protect the scope inputs from mains ground referenced voltages, NOTHING ELSE. The RCD/GFCI/RCBO is what protects your person from the mains, if you are clumsy enough to do something stupid. NOTHING will protect you from, say, touching both rails of the primary side of an SMPS, other than good practice (one hand only), and careful, methodical working.

People need to get it through their thick heads that working on mains powered devices is DANGEROUS, and there is NO SAFETY DEVICE that will protect them in all circumstances. If you are not confident, or don't know what you're doing, DON'T work on it.


Back in the day, Mains operated was "the only game in town".
Yes, it can be dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing, but not near as dangerous as many things we do every day without a second thought, like driving to work.

There were no RCDs back then, & in some countries transformerless radios & TVs were common, which, at best case had the metal chassis connected to Neutral, & worst case to the Active line.

In Australia, due to a fairly strict licencing regime, & incidental things like transformers being relatively cheap & the locally built tubes being mainly 6v or 12 v heater types, with "series heater" types being expensive imports, meant that the overwhelming majority of radios & BW TVs used a power transformer.

The amount of wiring connected to the Mains in such equipment is minimal & easy to troubleshoot with an analog multimeter without the device being powered.
With the introduction of Colour TV in this country, SMPS became the norm, but even these had a fairly well-defined Mains referenced section, isolated from the rest of the circuitry by transformers at the SMPS operating frequency.
If there was no fault involving the SMPS, it was quite safe to work on such TVs without an isolation transformer, & many thousands of people did so.

If you need to critically probe the SMPS, the lack of a "common" point to connect the "ground" clip on the 'scope becomes a problem, so an isolation transformer does become useful.
Any kind of test equipment I ever worked on which had any pretensions of being the "real thing" either used a power transformer or a SMPS with a transformer at the switching frequency providing isolation.

Those of us brought up on valve/tube radios learnt the hard way to watch where we put our fingers, from receiving nasty but not usually dangerous (in domestic equipment) "zaps", from anode/screen supplies.

We always gave the Mains the greatest of respect, but weren't in a constant state of terror--- :scared: :scared: :scared:


Unfortunately, those people who do work on electronics these days have become used to DC supply rails with voltages up to around 15v, where you can poke around without a care in the world---if you get across 15v most people won't even feel it.

Even worse, is the "newbie" who just bought a 'scope & wants to look at something with it (they never seem happy with just looking at the calibration output).
At one time there were a plethora of signal sources in most homes, from such things as analog VCRs, DVD players, set top boxes, etc.

Even later, there were "AC adaptors" of which, at least some had a low voltage ac output.

Nowadays. the "Noob" looks around, sees nothing & "zooms in" on the power point for a convenient source of a 50/60Hz signal. |O



 


 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135655 on: January 10, 2024, 12:37:59 am »
There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

The 400 bucks meter just turned into a 850 one.....
Just watched the end of the auction live.

I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?!  :o

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!  :-//
Standard practice on some auction sites. If you make a bid in the last X minutes it resets the clock to let other people respond.

Yahoo Auctions is similar. If the timer reaches zero, the auction is finished, but if someone bids just before then the counter resets somewhere between 5 minutes and 10 minutes (seems to be an algorithm incorporating number of extensions already made, size of new bid and the phase of the moon) to prevent sniping.




On an unrelated manner, does anyone know where to get a tool to neatly crimp the strain relief in 1/4" and 1/8" headphone/phono jacks?

I buy really nice Canare jacks, and doing a bodge with pliers to squish the strain relief clamp onto the cable is just not a nice thing to do with these premium connectors.....
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135656 on: January 10, 2024, 07:03:17 am »
I've bought one of those swap jaw things.
Don't use those for premium stuff.
Even my old Crimpstar RG-58 pliers weight around half a kilo.

Maybe you can visit a place with good pliers.

OK OK... I guess I only experienced Ebay so I assumed it was the standard way of doing auctions.

You live 'n learn as they say !  ;D

Somewhere around you is an official auction of officially dumped stuff.
Visit there one day, just for the sake of it.

Ending only after few minutes after last bid is entertainment when two I-must-be-1st bidders are competing.
Here police auction with an old cow cycle is the place.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135657 on: January 10, 2024, 05:45:08 pm »
-snip-
-snip-
-snip-
Yes, it can be dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing, but not near as dangerous as many things we do every day without a second thought, like driving to work.

It is dangerous, period. Even if you know what you're doing. As is driving. We mitigate the danger by, 1) training (learning to drive, eletrician/eletronics apprenticeships/college), ii) precautionary measures (RCD/GFCI/RCBO devices, proper CAT ratings on probes etc, making sure the vehicle is roadworthy before driving, and that the route is safe), and c) due care and attention whilst carriying out the task (driving defensively, being aware of hazards, using the one hand rule for higher voltages, using good lighting on what you're probing etc).

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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135658 on: January 10, 2024, 06:05:26 pm »
Could this Fluke 8375A have been repaired? or were some critical parts missing (other than the covers & shield plates)? I don't know how many of the empty slots are for option boards. It was previously sold as "doesn't power up".

A pointless question now, as MJTronix has destroyed it and is trying to sell some the PCBs with some parts removed.  >:( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116035060076

David
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 06:13:35 pm by factory »
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135659 on: January 10, 2024, 06:24:46 pm »
There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

The 400 bucks meter just turned into a 850 one.....
Just watched the end of the auction live.

I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?!  :o

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!  :-//
I did sometimes exerience this or a similar behaviour when I joined Ebay (around '99) and during a later period too (must have been around 8..10 years ago). Haven't noted this (on Ebay) since. I'm undecided whether it was a malfunction or a result of illegal manipulations.
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135660 on: January 10, 2024, 07:22:10 pm »
There is a Keithley 2001M in Switzerland for a good price (no affiliation), which is pretty rare. Even considering the shortcomings of the Keithley 2001, at CHF 400 it's still a good buy.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/tisch-multimeter-keithley-2001m-75-digit-1249531596/

The 400 bucks meter just turned into a 850 one.....
Just watched the end of the auction live.

I was shocked at what happened, never heard about such practices on auction sites ?!
When the count down reached zero, instead of ending, the auction started again !
All by magic, instead of displaying 00:00, the time counter got credited a bonus 2 minutes or so !
So the auction resumed and the price went up even more as a result.
Upon reached zero (again...), it AGAIN credited an extra 2 minutes !
It did that 5 or 6 times before the auction ended for good !

Is that a new thing these days ?!  :o

Maybe it's an old practice and I never heard of it because I live under  a rock or something ?!  :-//

No, this is how Ricardo is handling their auctions. When someone bids higher than the current bid within the last three minutes of the auction, the system adds another three minutes of time to the auction ending time. Yahoo auctions did this in the past as well.
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135661 on: January 10, 2024, 07:45:59 pm »
It's called popcorn bidding and it makes some sense: it avoids sniper bidding. In the end people get the chance to put in the bid they think is fair.
 
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Offline wkb

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135662 on: January 10, 2024, 08:25:57 pm »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135663 on: January 10, 2024, 11:41:09 pm »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline EggertEnjoyer123

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135664 on: January 11, 2024, 02:15:18 am »
I got a replacement power supply for the Agilent E4406A.

Unfortunately it's broken. (To be fair, the person told me he didn't know if it worked or not). I don't see any voltage on the output other than the standby, even when the power enable pin is high. I tried it inside the analyzer and outside, and I couldn't get any voltage out of it. There seems to be about 2 volts on the 32 volts output though.

There's a bunch of tiny capacitors on a few of the control boards, and those are notorious for failing and leaking electrolyte everywhere. Perhaps it's a good idea to try to replace those first. I also probably need to replace the dreaded RIFA caps too.

Also, maybe the frequency sync pin is messed up. Will have to probe that later.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 02:28:02 am by EggertEnjoyer123 »
 

Offline EggertEnjoyer123

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135665 on: January 11, 2024, 03:37:37 am »
Well that was easy…. or so I thought.

Replacing the zener and resistor did not fix it. I bet the GDT driver circuitry has failed.

Interestingly the transistor still seems to be fine, but it could have some damage still.
 

Offline wkb

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135666 on: January 11, 2024, 07:01:11 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.


As long as the time lag is constant, not jittery, you can compensate for that.
 

Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135667 on: January 11, 2024, 07:39:21 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.


As long as the time lag is constant, not jittery, you can compensate for that.

You would also have to sync with their computer time.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135668 on: January 11, 2024, 09:15:27 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.


As long as the time lag is constant, not jittery, you can compensate for that.

It will be jittery, there will be multiple different delays, and partial ordering is the best that can be achieved. FFI see Lamport.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline wkb

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135669 on: January 11, 2024, 09:27:24 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.


As long as the time lag is constant, not jittery, you can compensate for that.

You would also have to sync with their computer time.

True, but any halfway decent outfit syncs their complete datacenter with a reputable NTP source. Or if they want to be more paranoid use a dual-redundant NTP appliance that syncs to both GPS and DCF77 (like what I designed for a bank datacenter). Can't have a GPS spoof disrupting things..
 

Offline wkb

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135670 on: January 11, 2024, 09:33:45 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

And then you run into the issue of propagation delays.

After that you realise that the concept of a single universal time is flawed, and somebody points you to Leslie Lamport's seminal 1970s works.


As long as the time lag is constant, not jittery, you can compensate for that.

It will be jittery, there will be multiple different delays, and partial ordering is the best that can be achieved. FFI see Lamport.


Question in the end is if the jittery-ness will be pronounced enough to disrupt your sniping attempts. Likely you can't resolve this entirely, but maybe you can do it sufficiently to get at least a reasonable sniping success rate.

Anyway, way off topic this.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135671 on: January 11, 2024, 09:55:06 am »
Let's not get all anal about that again.
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135672 on: January 11, 2024, 10:01:28 am »
Alternatively you need to code a smarter sniper  :-//

Not sure how? If you snipe in the final 20ns the system still adds a few minutes for all the other bidders to catch a serious case of bidder fever and spend money they can't afford ;-)
 

Offline EggertEnjoyer123

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135673 on: January 11, 2024, 10:45:13 am »
With snipers you don't actually want to be last.

The idea is that you want to be faster than all the normal bidders, while lagging behind all the snipers. This is useful because the earliest person to bid wins in a tiebreak situation. Suppose you put in $100 and someone else puts in $100. If you set your sniper to 10 seconds before the auction ends and the other person sets his sniper to 5 seconds, you place the $100 bid first and the other person can't put in a bid anymore. If you tried to set your snipe to 3 seconds, you end up losing. There's a few other situations. Let's say a normal bidder bids a maximum of $100, and you put in $100.01 (because you're smart). The current bid shown on eBay is $50. If no one else bids before you put in your bid, eBay lets you beat the other person by 1 cent, since the bid increment (100.01 - 50) is greater than the minimum. If someone else snipes and the current bid goes up to $100, you can no longer beat the other person because of the bid increment (100.01 - 100) is too small.

It's also generally a good idea to add a few pennies to your bid, because people tend to bid round numbers and adding a few extra cents can help in a tiebreak situation.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 10:50:23 am by EggertEnjoyer123 »
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #135674 on: January 11, 2024, 05:36:44 pm »
My response to sniper software and the crappy ebay reconciliation software is to bid what I am prepared to pay for the particular item (usually TE) within the last few seconds, and if I get sniped or retro-actively fucked over by ebay, I just shrug my shoulders and wait for the next one.
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