Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Halcyon]

Guys please, second time. I'm going to start deleting posts in here that are not test equipment related. We're getting too many reports.

[dl6lr]

What you need, a vanilla copy of the original disk?
That will be easy if you have the disk.

Yes, but I don't have any original discs...

But: I am an idiot. After having disassembled a part of the 8088 based FDC controller ROM with the formatting routine, I found the cause why it was refusing to accept the FlashFloppy Gotek emulation as a real disc. And of course everything has already been presented to me, I just didn't catch it:

Cylinder 78 head 1 is formatted using a track id of 150 in the sector headers, not the usual 78. Of course this information was already hidden in the Teledisk image. And I read through the dump but didn't find it as the track header inside the dump was using the correct cylinder numbers, but the sector headers did not (In fact there is no such thing as a track header with track ids on the disc, the track preamble consists of 80 bytes 0x4E, 12 bytes 0x00, 3 bytes 0xC2 with missing clock transistion between bits 3 and 4,  1 byte 0xFC index mark, 50 bytes 0x4E). All other used tracks have the correct track id in the sector headers, even the cylinder 79 using different sector ids. And the raw images cannot handle such track ids, as the sector headers are generated on the fly by FlashFloppy, using the cylinder that is stepped to.
After some discussion with Keir Fraser he suggested to use HFE format instead. And that works like a charm. I created an empty image and formatted it in the 4952A. And then converting the Teledisk format to HFE (with patching the data rate as it was taken with a PC drive) immediately worked too.

BTW: The HP firmware programmer must have smoked something silly. They coded a simple negation for the head select as follows (CL contains 0x00 or 0x01):

Code: [Select]

       f000:9279 f6 c1 ff        TEST       CL,0xff                                         
       f000:927c 74 02           JZ         HEAD0
       f000:927e b1 ff           MOV        CL,0xff                                         
                             HEAD0                                           XREF[1]:     f000:927c(j) 
       f000:9280 fe c1           INC        CL


[tggzzz]

Certainly, more than one design concept exists. But to stay with the TE example: let's take an oscilloscope. Its primary task is to visualise time-varying electrical signals. The two most important parameters are the time axis and the amplitude. This is the main reason why the controls for these two parameters are so prominently placed on most oscilloscopes.

Anyone who understands what an oscilloscope does will intuitively understand the importance of these controls and use them accordingly. For me, this is an example of "form follows function". If one deviates from this, there must be very good reasons for this different approach. Hameg oscilloscopes, for example, fulfil this "form follows function" approach quite well (imo). How good the technical capabilities are in detail is certainly debatable, but they solve the task of "displaying time-varying electrical signals" quite well and I don't know how it could be done better.

It depends. Software is different as you can specify concepts in an abstract manor with no major compromises.

If we applied purism like form follows function absolutely then everyone would have to use unix command line tools to edit their photos.

The nuanced position is to meet the user half way. Real quality software goes out of the way to move the problem as close to the user as possible. That software builds trillion dollar companies.

UI design is the tough nut; the bugbear. With some tools it is obvious how it needs to be made because they have to a) do a specific job and b) fit the human hand, so the form refines itself over the years... the required form of tools used by the mind are much more subjective.

...

Under any circumstances; the most important part of that last 20% is not so much what is there as what isn't; the old sculptor's adage of "You start with a chunk of [insert chosen material here] and take away everything that isn't [insert desired object here]..." is so very important.

if there was room in my .sig, I'd repeat this oft-quoted statement from an author, pioneering pilot and engineer...

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”
― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Airman's Odyssey

In software, for example, I know my coding is going well when I am removing bits of my code. Extra benefit: it drives the Lines of Code bean counter into apoplexy.

[mansaxel]

5237A update:

Put new backup battery in. Now CPU goes to HALT on boot. SM sez: "swap all EEPROM, if not OK, swap CPU board". 

This is about as broken as insensitive thread moderation. It took several minutes of internal turmoil to amass strength to actually post on-topic here, because I'm quite upset with the lack of understanding.   

[dl6lr]

SM sez: "swap all EEPROM, if not OK, swap CPU board". 

"Cylinder misfire bank 0 cylinder 3: Replace all gas. If not OK, swap engine"

[mnementh]

This is the final warning

All posts MUST be electronics related in some form, stop posting junk here that is non related.
Anyone that continues to ignore this will be given a 7 day timeout from posting!

mnem
 

edit by gnif: 7 day timeout issued for this post.... you were warned.

[dl6lr]

This thread is useless without pics videos:



Sorry for my shaky hands...

[tautech]

non-electronics related comment removed - gnif

Oh really gnif, your efforts are causing more pollution than OT posts. 
If you must and it seems you do, deleting posts I believe would be the preferred option for all those that like to hang out here.
Ask them, that certainly shouldn't be that hard for a moderator with the toolset you have.

[gnif]

non-electronics related comment removed - gnif

Oh really gnif, your efforts are causing more pollution than OT posts. 
If you must and it seems you do, deleting posts I believe would be the preferred option for all those that like to hang out here.
Ask them, that certainly shouldn't be that hard for a moderator with the toolset you have.

  You guys just don't get it... I deleted posts and people complained, this time I tried to make it clear that the posts were OT so the posters could see that they were posting crap again. We are sick of all the reports for the OT posts and the fact that people here have been warned multiple times and are ignoring the direction given. The ones ignoring the direction (you) are the minority here... keep it up and get your account restricted.

[Zenith]

Certainly, more than one design concept exists. But to stay with the TE example: let's take an oscilloscope. Its primary task is to visualise time-varying electrical signals. The two most important parameters are the time axis and the amplitude. This is the main reason why the controls for these two parameters are so prominently placed on most oscilloscopes.

Anyone who understands what an oscilloscope does will intuitively understand the importance of these controls and use them accordingly. For me, this is an example of "form follows function". If one deviates from this, there must be very good reasons for this different approach. Hameg oscilloscopes, for example, fulfil this "form follows function" approach quite well (imo). How good the technical capabilities are in detail is certainly debatable, but they solve the task of "displaying time-varying electrical signals" quite well and I don't know how it could be done better.

It depends. Software is different as you can specify concepts in an abstract manor with no major compromises.

If we applied purism like form follows function absolutely then everyone would have to use unix command line tools to edit their photos.

The nuanced position is to meet the user half way. Real quality software goes out of the way to move the problem as close to the user as possible. That software builds trillion dollar companies.

UI design is the tough nut; the bugbear. With some tools it is obvious how it needs to be made because they have to a) do a specific job and b) fit the human hand, so the form refines itself over the years... the required form of tools used by the mind are much more subjective.

...

Under any circumstances; the most important part of that last 20% is not so much what is there as what isn't; the old sculptor's adage of "You start with a chunk of [insert chosen material here] and take away everything that isn't [insert desired object here]..." is so very important.

if there was room in my .sig, I'd repeat this oft-quoted statement from an author, pioneering pilot and engineer...

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”
― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Airman's Odyssey

In software, for example, I know my coding is going well when I am removing bits of my code. Extra benefit: it drives the Lines of Code bean counter into apoplexy.

But software source code is as much to communicate with other humans as computers, so you also need readability. Structuring the code and accurate comments help a lot in that respect. There's also a trade off with generality and complexity, and simplicity at the cost of having to rejig code to account for things that were likely future requirements.

The UNIX commandline stuff was convenient for the people developing UNIX, and the techies who were going to use it, and was well before WIMPS.

For UI design in general, but particularly for TE, I'd say the answer is mock ups to test various ways of doing it, in usability trials with the kind of people the product is aimed at, and let the one people find the most intuitive drive the engineering. I don't think that's easy though.

[capt bullshot]

This is the final warning

All posts MUST be electronics related in some form, stop posting junk here that is non related.
Anyone that continues to ignore this will be given a 7 day timeout from posting!

This is a final warning. If moderators keep on insisting, I'll stay away from the forum on my own.
GRRRRR!!!!!

I'm pretty much annoyed seeing all these edited posts. Censorship isn't a nice thing in a free world, or at least what we think a free world is.

Yes, I'm annoyed of quite an amount of non-TE / electronics related posts, too. But I can keep my mouth shut and skip over them, just for the community here.
I've seen too much real stuff falling apart because of the "equivalent" of the moderators here intervening to much, and I like this thread the way it is. Not the way it apparently shall be forced to by a few that have the power.

[bd139]

Likewise.

[med6753]

Ditto.

[gnif]

This is the final warning

All posts MUST be electronics related in some form, stop posting junk here that is non related.
Anyone that continues to ignore this will be given a 7 day timeout from posting!

This is a final warning. If moderators keep on insisting, I'll stay away from the forum on my own.
GRRRRR!!!!!

Likewise.

Ditto.

Why do you think we keep insisting? You're breaking the rules that govern this forum & community. If you do not want to abide by them, feel free to go elsewhere.

I'm pretty much annoyed seeing all these edited posts. Censorship isn't a nice thing in a free world, or at least what we think a free world is.

Get over it, it's not censorship. They were edited because they were OFF TOPIC. I could have just as easily deleted them, but the way the forum works there is no notification to the poster that the post was deleted, as such leaving something for the poster to see to help them to understand that it was not on topic is a better alternative to just removing the post.

Yes, I'm annoyed of quite an amount of non-TE / electronics related posts, too. But I can keep my mouth shut and skip over them, just for the community here.

So you admit this is an issue, yet you are not willing to let the moderators try to prevent it derailing so far that the forum devolves into just a mess of off-topic garbage? Where do we draw the line?

[capt bullshot]

Why do you think we keep insisting? You're breaking the rules that govern this forum & community. If you do not want to abide by them, feel free to go elsewhere.

Nothing is wrong with insisting on the rules in general.

But as always, there's reality. Reality has diverged from the rules within this thread long time ago, and what now kicks in is what we'd call "Gewohnheitsrecht" (right to do sth. by continous non-sanctioned doing so in the past). It's supported by law in some areas (e.g. at a workplace - if the employer gives out rules but continously ignores people ignoring the rules, he can't insist on these rules anymore).
This forum is an area not covered by German workplace laws, or maybe any applicable laws at all - so it's up to you moderators to act using common sense. Insisting on rules that have been ignored long time without intervention will at least break the "community" within this thread.

Seeing comments edited and people banned annoys me like heck, since none of these people have offended others or posted illegal stuff or whatever ... It's just chat and talk. It's plain wrong to use censorship and powers to suppress this.

[Brumby]

Yes, I'm annoyed of quite an amount of non-TE / electronics related posts, too. But I can keep my mouth shut and skip over them, just for the community here.

Same.  2 or 3 posts aren't a big issue for me - but 2 or 3 pages bugs me.

I'm pretty much annoyed seeing all these edited posts. Censorship isn't a nice thing in a free world, or at least what we think a free world is.
... ... ...
I've seen too much real stuff falling apart because of the "equivalent" of the moderators here intervening to much, and I like this thread the way it is. Not the way it apparently shall be forced to by a few that have the power.

It seems you are missing one vital point: Mods don't just jump in off their own bat, they respond to reports made by other members.  So don't blame the Mods - blame the SJW's who like to push buttons.

Seeing comments edited and people banned annoys me like heck, since none of these people have offended others or posted illegal stuff or whatever ... It's just chat and talk. It's plain wrong to use censorship and powers to suppress this.

See my comment above.

[capt bullshot]

Yes, I'm annoyed of quite an amount of non-TE / electronics related posts, too. But I can keep my mouth shut and skip over them, just for the community here.

So you admit this is an issue, yet you are not willing to let the moderators try to prevent it derailing so far that the forum devolves into just a mess of off-topic garbage? Where do we draw the line?

No, it's not an issue to me. I just can skip over these things that do not interest me in the first place and I'm not in the mood to read this.  Otherwise it's interesting to read off-topic stuff here, and sometimes one can learn something from that just by coincidence. So my conclusion: I want people to be allowed to post off-topic stuff here.

[gnif]

Why do you think we keep insisting? You're breaking the rules that govern this forum & community. If you do not want to abide by them, feel free to go elsewhere.

Nothing is wrong with insisting on the rules in general.

But as always, there's reality. Reality has diverged from the rules within this thread long time ago, and what now kicks in is what we'd call "Gewohnheitsrecht" (right to do sth. by continous non-sanctioned doing so in the past). It's supported by law in some areas (e.g. at a workplace - if the employer gives out rules but continously ignores people ignoring the rules, he can't insist on these rules anymore).
This forum is an area not covered by German workplace laws, or maybe any applicable laws at all - so it's up to you moderators to act using common sense. Insisting on rules that have been ignored long time without intervention will at least break the "community" within this thread.

Seeing comments edited and people banned annoys me like heck, since none of these people have offended others or posted illegal stuff or whatever ... It's just chat and talk. It's plain wrong to use censorship and powers to suppress this.

This forum has tens of thousands of members, with several thousand online every day and a small group of moderators. How can you expect us to see/govern every action/post that is made each day to check if it's in violation of the rules. We rely on moderation reports to help us to see where there is an issue.... people are reporting this thread on mass which drew out attention to it. We can see that it does indeed violate the forum rules and people are not taking the gentle reminders to stay on topic.

Our gentle reminders have been met with arguments, hatred, spite, and anger. Our instructions have been ignored and the moderators have been abused for doing their jobs. It's been several weeks since this all started and things did start to get back to staying on topic... but well the same bad actors have brought us back here again.

it's not an issue to me. I just can skip over these things that do not interest me

And what about the 10,000+ other members that view these pages?

I want people to be allowed to post off-topic stuff here.

Define off-topic? how far can they go? Can they start making posts about child abuse, pornography, murder, explosives, guns?
We simply can not open the door like this.

[Brumby]

The trouble is, this freedom has been increasingly abused to the point that members increasingly become fed up with pages of this stuff and it finally caused a response.

Like I said - 2 or 3 posts doesn't bug me but 2 or 3 pages does.  I've not reported anyone for this - but I can understand those who might.

Now the matter has come to a head, finding a satisfactory resolution will be challenging.  Strict application of the rules seems the only logical direction, since "reasonableness" has lost pretty much any and all relevance.

The Mod team have no interest in flexing their muscles for the sake of a power trip.  They'd much rather see the place buzzing along.

[capt bullshot]

Why do you think we keep insisting? You're breaking the rules that govern this forum & community. If you do not want to abide by them, feel free to go elsewhere.

Nothing is wrong with insisting on the rules in general.

But as always, there's reality. Reality has diverged from the rules within this thread long time ago, and what now kicks in is what we'd call "Gewohnheitsrecht" (right to do sth. by continous non-sanctioned doing so in the past). It's supported by law in some areas (e.g. at a workplace - if the employer gives out rules but continously ignores people ignoring the rules, he can't insist on these rules anymore).
This forum is an area not covered by German workplace laws, or maybe any applicable laws at all - so it's up to you moderators to act using common sense. Insisting on rules that have been ignored long time without intervention will at least break the "community" within this thread.

Seeing comments edited and people banned annoys me like heck, since none of these people have offended others or posted illegal stuff or whatever ... It's just chat and talk. It's plain wrong to use censorship and powers to suppress this.

This forum has tens of thousands of members, with several thousand online every day and a small group of moderators. How can you expect us to see/govern every action/post that is made each day to check if it's in violation of the rules. We rely on moderation reports to help us to see where there is an issue.... people are reporting this thread on mass which drew out attention to it. We can see that it does indeed violate the forum rules and people are not taking the gentle reminders to stay on topic.

Our gentle reminders have been met with arguments, hatred, spite, and anger. Our instructions have been ignored and the moderators have been abused for doing their jobs. It's been several weeks since this all started and things did start to get back to staying on topic... but well the same bad actors have brought us back here again.

it's not an issue to me. I just can skip over these things that do not interest me

And what about the 10,000+ other members that view these pages?

I want people to be allowed to post off-topic stuff here.

Define off-topic? how far can they go? Can they start making posts about child abuse, pornography, murder, explosives, guns?
We simply can not open the door like this.

So you'd just better close and lock down this thread to please the 10000s of users. Never mind losing a few here.

[gnif]

Why do you think we keep insisting? You're breaking the rules that govern this forum & community. If you do not want to abide by them, feel free to go elsewhere.

Nothing is wrong with insisting on the rules in general.

But as always, there's reality. Reality has diverged from the rules within this thread long time ago, and what now kicks in is what we'd call "Gewohnheitsrecht" (right to do sth. by continous non-sanctioned doing so in the past). It's supported by law in some areas (e.g. at a workplace - if the employer gives out rules but continously ignores people ignoring the rules, he can't insist on these rules anymore).
This forum is an area not covered by German workplace laws, or maybe any applicable laws at all - so it's up to you moderators to act using common sense. Insisting on rules that have been ignored long time without intervention will at least break the "community" within this thread.

Seeing comments edited and people banned annoys me like heck, since none of these people have offended others or posted illegal stuff or whatever ... It's just chat and talk. It's plain wrong to use censorship and powers to suppress this.

This forum has tens of thousands of members, with several thousand online every day and a small group of moderators. How can you expect us to see/govern every action/post that is made each day to check if it's in violation of the rules. We rely on moderation reports to help us to see where there is an issue.... people are reporting this thread on mass which drew out attention to it. We can see that it does indeed violate the forum rules and people are not taking the gentle reminders to stay on topic.

Our gentle reminders have been met with arguments, hatred, spite, and anger. Our instructions have been ignored and the moderators have been abused for doing their jobs. It's been several weeks since this all started and things did start to get back to staying on topic... but well the same bad actors have brought us back here again.

it's not an issue to me. I just can skip over these things that do not interest me

And what about the 10,000+ other members that view these pages?

I want people to be allowed to post off-topic stuff here.

Define off-topic? how far can they go? Can they start making posts about child abuse, pornography, murder, explosives, guns?
We simply can not open the door like this.

So you'd just better close and lock down this thread to please the 10000s of users. Never mind losing a few here.

Unfortunately this is the direction this is heading, but we would like to avoid this.

It's up to you guys, the expectation from us is simple, just keep your posts electronics related. We have already relaxed the requirement that they be "Test Equipment" related so that this can be a more lax/open thread, but it's still REQUIRED to be electronics related.

[med6753]

I have been with this thread since page 3. And since then I have contributed literally hundreds of hours of my time devoted to test equipment tear downs, repairs, and restorations. As well as hundreds of accompanying photos. And yep, some off content stuff too. But to suddenly be branded a "bad actor" I find absolutely insulting and unwarranted.

I promise not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out.   

[GreyWoolfe]

Speaking for myself, I enjoy the off topic almost as much as the on topic.  This is an international forum and it gives me a glimpse into the lives of people in other parts of the world that I will probably never get to travel to.  Yes, it does get out of hand occasionally, but we do seem to self police well.  This is the digital equivalent of water cooler chat or pub chat over a few frosty adult beverages.  I am sad for this thread, I can see it going away.  Either it will end up locked permanently or people will grow weary of over moderating themselves due to a few that have such poor quality of lives that they insist on sharing with everyone else.  This thread is the reason that I became a Supporter.  I am not saying the SJW's are wrong.  What I am saying is they can spend their time more wisely by trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and enjoy a better quality of life instead of trying to pull everyone else down to their level.

gnif, I will understand if you remove this post but I don't think it is completely off topic given the atmosphere in here lately.  I don't envy you or the other moderator's jobs.  This is rapidly becoming a no win situation.

[Specmaster]

 The postman has just been (yes this is on topic), and the much awaited delivery from down under, kindly sent by fellow member Austfox, containing 2 LED display modules for the calculators that I'm restoring. Photos of the items and the finished items will be posted later for those that are interested in this topic. But for now, I have to go out for some real life events. 

[Brumby]

I am not saying the SJW's are wrong.  What I am saying is they can spend their time more wisely by trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and enjoy a better quality of life instead of trying to pull everyone else down to their level.

Hear, hear.