Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

And here's the family portrait... 3 generations of 546xxx scope! 

Wow! Congrats on that CRT surviving. Those scopes look great!

I got an HP 54601A a few years back and a year or so afterward scored a 54657A Storage & GPIB module for it that adds FFT. Unfortunately, I need to upgrade the firmware in the scope to use it and haven't succeeded in finding one that's version 2.2 or higher.

Oscilloscope Compatibility

54657A and 54658A These modules are compatible with all Agilent 54600-series oscilloscopes except 54600A, 4601A, and 54602A oscilloscopes with an operating system version lower than 2.2. If your 54600A, 54601A, or 54602A oscilloscope has an earlier operating system, it can be updated using upgrade kit HP part number 54601-68702.

---------------

Update: Well, a new search found this post with info on the last version made, but the image file attached is version 2.0. Same as my scope has.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54601a-oscilloscope-eprom-firmware-needed/msg4051633/#msg4051633

Well, fuck-a-doodle. My 54657A RS-232/Math & Acquisition Module54600A came with the 54600A attached; that must have the correct firmware.

*runs down to the dwagon-cave to check*



Any of you HP boffins know if the FW from the 54600A is the same as the 54601A? Only difference is the two extra channels, right? Maybe a bit flipped somewhere selects between the two?

mnem
     
This morning's coffee is not only strong, it's mean too...

[mnementh]

This gets more interesting by the minutes. As my intoxicated brain is only capable of processing keywords it only saw mice and explosions. 

Incidentally I didn’t drink enough to buy an SA 

What?! Did you not get the memo that collecting SA's is the latest thing in the thread now?

Working on that still. Have a spreadsheet going. Apparently when I’m drunk I make spreadsheets first.

'Cuz, you know... nobody likes a disorganized drunk. 

mnem
Well, maybe that guy from Kung Fu Hustle...

[mnementh]

HP MegaZoom Mega-Post!!!

...I didn't have time or energy for that tonight, so I took one for the team and just swapped the CRT neck board over and tried it.




Franken-monitor is no joy; it is not possible to make a CDM-7SF191 serve as a CDM-7SX191 just by swapping the CRT neck PCB. 

Re: the rolling picture with the CRT neck board swap, did you try adjusting the horizontal/vertical hold controls (CRT main board)  & the contrast control (CRT neck board), when you swapped the board to the older CRT?

David

Yeah; it's not a rolling picture, it's only raster and retrace, no video information. The black bar you see there is just a digital camera artifact. I'd have pursued it further, but I was hoping I hadn't fried something with my little experiment, so only powered it up like that a couple times before deciding to pull the plug.

Cheers!

mnem
 

Did you measure any voltages before or after?

Yeah, pins on the ribbon cable of the neck PCB measured similar, except the ones I expected to be different because of TTL vs VGA video. Did not measure anything after reassembling; I wanted to get things buttoned up. As it was, I didn't finish the post until 00:dark:30 ...

If you want we can revisit this later... but right now I have a honey-do list as long my tail. MIL is coming to visit in a week or so. 

mnem
*toddles off to toddle off*

[tggzzz]

found my old log trig tables in the bottom of a box down the basement.

it smells like knowledge. (actual knowledge is musty)

Used 4 fig tables at school, still have 3 fig in the back of a Nuffield Advanceed Science reference book used at school 16-18. I believe there are 7 fig tables, but fortunately never needed to use them.

π² = g = 10.

[tggzzz]

<snip>

what?  a kit built sinclair scientific?

if it were anyone else you would be dead to me.

but since you are usually a voice of reason around here........ you get a pass.

Well thanks for sparing me  What can I say, I was young and full of cum back then and the Sinclair was the only scientific calculator within my price bracket. When that calculator was launched in 1974 it sold as a kit for £49.95 and in today's money that equates to £579 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Scientific#Assembly_kit

No, you've misread the pricing:

In January 1975, the kit was available for US$49.95, half the price at the time of introduction a year earlier,[13] and in December 1975 it was available for GB£9.95, less than a quarter of the introductory price.

So that's $49.95USD (£21.90GBP at Jan '74 exchange rates, about £165 in today's money) and then £9.95 by the end of the same year (about £75 in today's money).

Pleasingly this matches my recollection:

Introduced 1974, initial price was £49 [about US$80] + Value Added Tax  (VAT), but the receipt for one example that was originally purchased two years later in July 1976 shows that it then cost just £7 [about US$14] including VAT.

Back them, as now, £1==$1, albeit for different reasons

[tggzzz]

3-4 digits at best. Not logs of number <1.

(Anybody remember what $$\bar{1}.3010$$ meant when using 4-fig log tables?)

Yes, even better I can tell that $$10^{\bar{1}.3010} = ~0.2$$ from inspection.

Somewhat sad that we remember that!

[BU508A]

Some vintage IC fun...

Better than a Mouser ziplock 



Mmmmm gold legs...



P date code suggests 1970. These are fairly early ones which is always interesting. Considering the first commercial ICs went on the market in 1961 and NASA bought nearly all of them until 1965, these are primordial era tech 

Found via looking at old magazines/catalogues they were $2.50 a pop in 1970 approximately. That's $16.80 in today's money.

Are those the same?

Yeah I'd want my money back on that. Not even a discount is acceptable 

Just bought something pointless but vintage cool. Some good old RCA 3028A's boxed NOS. £18 which is fair-ish price but they are nicely boxed and gold legged



Not sure if I'm going to keep them prisoner or use them. They are rather neat little three transistor differential amplifiers and can be wired as cascodes, AGC amplifiers, RF amplifiers and single/differential converters up to a whopping 120MHz or so. Fun fun fun!

[tggzzz]

Got rudely awoken by pigeons on top of my chimney this morning. Another thing I won’t have to bloody put up with in a couple of weeks.

I've had worse: a bird tapping away in the removed fireplace in the lounge. Had to remove the ventilation grill to release it.

[mnementh]

   And here's the family portrait... 3 generations of 546xxx scope! 

Wow! Congrats on that CRT surviving. Those scopes look great!

I got an HP 54601A a few years back and a year or so afterward scored a 54657A Storage & GPIB module for it that adds FFT. Unfortunately, I need to upgrade the firmware in the scope to use it and haven't succeeded in finding one that's version 2.2 or higher.

Oscilloscope Compatibility

54657A and 54658A These modules are compatible with all Agilent 54600-series oscilloscopes except 54600A, 4601A, and 54602A oscilloscopes with an operating system version lower than 2.2. If your 54600A, 54601A, or 54602A oscilloscope has an earlier operating system, it can be updated using upgrade kit HP part number 54601-68702.

---------------

Update: Well, a new search found this post with info on the last version made, but the image file attached is version 2.0. Same as my scope has.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54601a-oscilloscope-eprom-firmware-needed/msg4051633/#msg4051633

Well, fuck-a-doodle. My 54657A RS-232/Math & Acquisition Module54600A came with the 54600A attached; that must have the correct firmware.

*runs down to the dwagon-cave to check*   

Any of you HP boffins know if the FW from the 54600A is the same as the 54601A? Only difference is the two extra channels, right? Maybe a bit flipped somewhere selects between the two?

https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/hp_54601a_os_update_possible/31819171

Oh, here we go... This post suggests that HP Upgrade Kit 54601-68702 is a preprogrammed EEPROM, so should be the same FW for all applicable scopes.

Hmmm... I see a programmer project in the works... 

mnem
*toddles off to make breakfast*

[Zenith]

found my old log trig tables in the bottom of a box down the basement.

it smells like knowledge. (actual knowledge is musty)

Used 4 fig tables at school, still have 3 fig in the back of a Nuffield Advanceed Science reference book used at school 16-18. I believe there are 7 fig tables, but fortunately never needed to use them.

π² = g = 10.

There were also 8 fig tables. I know this because at school I was one of only two to realise that there were two solutions to a problem on heat expansion. I worked out one and pointed to the existence of the other, but said it was too hard to work out. The exercise came back with a snotty comment saying that there were 8 fig log tables. It was disappointing that I showed such a lack of motivation.

I vaguely recall reading that the last great table of logs was 20 figures. Someone in Cambridge worked on it from 1927 until 1951? , but by then there were computers coming about. It must have been a tremendous amount of work to work out and validate. Early log tables were plagued with errors.

I've toyed with the idea of writing a program to generate and validate a 20 fig log table. It's a problem that obviously lends itself to parallelism. I fancy that a 6 core, 12 thread AMD CPU clocked at  3.9GHz would have it done and dusted in a couple of seconds. Something of an improvement on over 20 years.

[bd139]

Some vintage IC fun...

Better than a Mouser ziplock 



Mmmmm gold legs...



P date code suggests 1970. These are fairly early ones which is always interesting. Considering the first commercial ICs went on the market in 1961 and NASA bought nearly all of them until 1965, these are primordial era tech 

Found via looking at old magazines/catalogues they were $2.50 a pop in 1970 approximately. That's $16.80 in today's money.

Are those the same?

Yeah I'd want my money back on that. Not even a discount is acceptable 

Just bought something pointless but vintage cool. Some good old RCA 3028A's boxed NOS. £18 which is fair-ish price but they are nicely boxed and gold legged



Not sure if I'm going to keep them prisoner or use them. They are rather neat little three transistor differential amplifiers and can be wired as cascodes, AGC amplifiers, RF amplifiers and single/differential converters up to a whopping 120MHz or so. Fun fun fun!

Yep that's the ones. Next day delivery was a surprise

[Robert763]

   And here's the family portrait... 3 generations of 546xxx scope! 

Wow! Congrats on that CRT surviving. Those scopes look great!

I got an HP 54601A a few years back and a year or so afterward scored a 54657A Storage & GPIB module for it that adds FFT. Unfortunately, I need to upgrade the firmware in the scope to use it and haven't succeeded in finding one that's version 2.2 or higher.

Oscilloscope Compatibility

54657A and 54658A These modules are compatible with all Agilent 54600-series oscilloscopes except 54600A, 4601A, and 54602A oscilloscopes with an operating system version lower than 2.2. If your 54600A, 54601A, or 54602A oscilloscope has an earlier operating system, it can be updated using upgrade kit HP part number 54601-68702.

---------------

Update: Well, a new search found this post with info on the last version made, but the image file attached is version 2.0. Same as my scope has.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54601a-oscilloscope-eprom-firmware-needed/msg4051633/#msg4051633

Well, fuck-a-doodle. My 54657A RS-232/Math & Acquisition Module54600A came with the 54600A attached; that must have the correct firmware.

*runs down to the dwagon-cave to check*   

Any of you HP boffins know if the FW from the 54600A is the same as the 54601A? Only difference is the two extra channels, right? Maybe a bit flipped somewhere selects between the two?

https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/hp_54601a_os_update_possible/31819171

Oh, here we go... This post suggests that HP Upgrade Kit 54601-68702 is a preprogrammed EEPROM, so should be the same FW for all applicable scopes.

Hmmm... I see a programmer project in the works... 

mnem
*toddles off to make breakfast*

KO4BB has 54602A/B imges
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=HP_Agilent/HP_54602AB_Firmware_ROM_images_EPROM_54600-8000812-29.zip

Don't know what revision though.

[Specmaster]

This gets more interesting by the minutes. As my intoxicated brain is only capable of processing keywords it only saw mice and explosions. 

Incidentally I didn’t drink enough to buy an SA 

What?! Did you not get the memo that collecting SA's is the latest thing in the thread now?

Working on that still. Have a spreadsheet going. Apparently when I’m drunk I make spreadsheets first.

'Cuz, you know... nobody likes a disorganized drunk. 

mnem
Well, maybe that guy from Kung Fu Hustle...

Well not quite strictly correct.. it seems that Spanish señoritas are quite partial to them 

[med6753]

The B&K Precision 2120 is back together. Resistance check of all the PSU voltages before applying power. No shorts.



For those expecting magic smoke sorry to disappoint you. The scope came right up without any issues. The +140V is adjustable. No adjustment needed. The only other adjustable voltage is the HV (-2kV). Will check that later.


 

Just a basic check of function. Trigger OK. Gain not bad. Sweep accuracy not bad. The scope will get a full calibration.

[Saskia]

At least you’re heading in the right direction now  . Repent!

Got rudely awoken by pigeons on top of my chimney this morning. Another thing I won’t have to bloody put up with in a couple of weeks.

Have got inventory appointment next week so I am going to LiDAR the room and plan bench engineering 

Just because you will no longer have a chimney won't deter pigeons, you have a window ledge and maybe even a balcony at the new place, oh and forget that squirrels can climb, so even they will still have the power to haunt you.  :-

that's what cat in the box is for ...

[TERRA Operative]

@med, you didn't bother replacing the two capacitors in the metal can on the top board?

[Zucca]

Saskia, you should have bought that island first.
I think on your island you have to deal with less Gesetzte und authorities BS.

If I can help to deal with some no sense I am here.

Just got a pallet of Victron Energy sins.

You know it is bad when your sin shows up as a pallet in front your door.

[Neper]

that's what cat in the box is for ...

A friend had a big multi-element FM antenna that was very popular with the pigeons. Easily seated three dozen of them. Trouble was they rattled the antenna elements lose. This prob could be solved by fixing a plastic owl on top of the antenna.

[med6753]

@med, you didn't bother replacing the two capacitors in the metal can on the top board?

That's the HV Oscillator. I wanted to replace them but ran into an issue. That whole bottom side is a shield seam soldered to the top shield. I don't have an iron hot enough to break the seal. I even employed 2 irons with help and still no joy. I think about the only way it would come apart is with a mini-torch. I was going to order one but decided it wasn't worth the effort given that those low value caps rarely go bad.

[Cerebus]

At least you’re heading in the right direction now  . Repent!

Got rudely awoken by pigeons on top of my chimney this morning. Another thing I won’t have to bloody put up with in a couple of weeks.

Have got inventory appointment next week so I am going to LiDAR the room and plan bench engineering 

Just because you will no longer have a chimney won't deter pigeons, you have a window ledge and maybe even a balcony at the new place, oh and forget that squirrels can climb, so even they will still have the power to haunt you. 

Good luck on the move, you must be looking forward to it now?

Fair point. We’re on the 4th (top) floor so this may be a problem. If it is they will have to fall off  .

The top floor was important for clear sky view (GPS antenna  )

Hmm, also should the unthinkable happen, the worst place to be in the event of fire or other emergency event in the building 

Depends on the "unthinkable", it could be an advantage. Have you seen how slowly zombies and triffids can climb stairs? Slows down baying mobs with pitchforks and torches too, which I think is probably BD's biggest risk.

Serious point: I found your choice of the word "unthinkable" thought provoking. I think that people's reluctance to consider "the unthinkable" is often the thing that turns an emergency into a disaster. Years of dealing with venue safety drummed into me the importance of emergency exits - keeping them working and clear. How many people "think" about how they would get out of their houses in a fire. I regularly catch myself consciously keeping our rear exit route clear of obstructions (i.e. I think about it) and I fear that many people seldom do. Is your back passage full of clutter? (Ooo Matron!)

[mnementh]

Oh, here we go... This post suggests that HP Upgrade Kit 54601-68702 is a preprogrammed EEPROM, so should be the same FW for all applicable scopes. Hmmm... I see a programmer project in the works... 

KO4BB has 54602A/B images:
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=HP_Agilent/HP_54602AB_Firmware_ROM_images_EPROM_54600-8000812-29.zip

Don't know what revision though.

That archive contains three .bin files evidently corresponding to the HP Part numbers for the ROMs back when they still supported these scopes: HP54658-80004, 54600-80008, and 54600-800812. I'd guess by the numbering that the first one is for the HP 54658 Serial/Math module (Maybe more, I dunno), while the latter two are for the 5460xx family scopes.

This post on eevBlog suggests that the latest FW is ROM Ver 3.2, HP Part number 54600-800813.

Based on that, 54600-8000812 might still be Version 3.x; but should still be at least as high as 2.3 which is on my 54600A.

Bitseeker, I think that's a better path than hoping I'll get far enough in the repair queue to actually extract the FW from my old dawg anytime like... before I die.

mnem
old tinkerdwagons never die; they just smell that way.

[mnementh]

Saskia, you should have bought that island first. I think on your island you have to deal with less Gesetzte und authorities BS. If I can help to deal with some no sense I am here. Just got a pallet of Victron Energy sins.

You know it is bad  GONNA BE     when your sin shows up as a pallet in front your door.

FTFY.

mnem
 

[Specmaster]

At least you’re heading in the right direction now  . Repent!

Got rudely awoken by pigeons on top of my chimney this morning. Another thing I won’t have to bloody put up with in a couple of weeks.

Have got inventory appointment next week so I am going to LiDAR the room and plan bench engineering 

Just because you will no longer have a chimney won't deter pigeons, you have a window ledge and maybe even a balcony at the new place, oh and forget that squirrels can climb, so even they will still have the power to haunt you.  :-

that's what cat in the box is for ...

HaHa a cat with BD, now that is something that just is never ever going to happen 

[Cerebus]

<snip>

what?  a kit built sinclair scientific?

if it were anyone else you would be dead to me.

but since you are usually a voice of reason around here........ you get a pass.

Well thanks for sparing me  What can I say, I was young and full of cum back then and the Sinclair was the only scientific calculator within my price bracket. When that calculator was launched in 1974 it sold as a kit for £49.95 and in today's money that equates to £579 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Scientific#Assembly_kit

No, you've misread the pricing:

In January 1975, the kit was available for US$49.95, half the price at the time of introduction a year earlier,[13] and in December 1975 it was available for GB£9.95, less than a quarter of the introductory price.

So that's $49.95USD (£21.90GBP at Jan '74 exchange rates, about £165 in today's money) and then £9.95 by the end of the same year (about £75 in today's money).

Oh No I didn't.. the following is an exert from the other link I also posted. Wikipedia has a typo $ in place of a £.

"Conclusions
The Sinclair Scientific came out in 1974 and was the first single-chip scientific calculator (if you ignore the display driver chips). It was stylishly compact, just 3/4 inch thick. It originally sold for the price of $119.95 or £49.95 and by the end of the year was available as a kit for the amazingly low price of £9.95.

Unfortunately, as calculator prices collapsed, so did Sinclair Radionics' profits, and the company was broken up in 1979 after heavy losses. Clive Sinclair's new company Sinclair Research went on to sell the highly-popular ZX 80 and ZX Spectrum home computers. Clive Sinclair was knighted for his accomplishments in 1983, becoming Sir Clive Sinclair. "

http://files.righto.com/calculator/sinclair_scientific_simulator.html

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/sinclair_scientific.html

"US$" in place of "GB£" is rather more than a "typo". Those sources differ, and who knows who copied whom when it came to recording the price.

I had one, also built from a kit, and bought the year they came out. I highly doubt the £50 UK price simply because I know that my father wouldn't have sprung for that, not in a month of Sundays. I still remember him having a fit when the bill from the opticians for a new pair of glasses came in at £60 two years later. No way was he going to voluntarily shell out £50  for something non essential. My father was a stereotypical "thrifty" Northener.  I'll see if I can find an old Practical Electronics with an ad for it online - that's almost certainly how I came to get him to buy it for me - and get an accurate price for it from primary sources.

Scratch that, check reference 13 in the Wikipedia article, a US Popular Mechanics advert (Jan 75) with a $49.95USD price on it. So it was dollars, not pounds, and reference 14 is an ad from New Scientist at the end of the year (Dec 75) with the £9.95GBP price clearly shown. So, not typos but verifiable from primary sources. The page at http://files.righto.com/calculator/sinclair_scientific_simulator.html that you've quoted to support the £49.95 price is either wrong, or is referring to the built calculator's retail price not the kit.

Moreover, I can believe my father springing the £9.95 for a Christmas present, just. 

[mnementh]

Fair point. We’re on the 4th (top) floor so this may be a problem. If it is they will have to fall off  .

The top floor was important for clear sky view (GPS antenna  )

Hmm, also should the unthinkable happen, the worst place to be in the event of fire or other emergency event in the building 

Depends on the "unthinkable", it could be an advantage. Have you seen how slowly zombies and triffids can climb stairs? Slows down baying mobs with pitchforks and torches too, which I think is probably BD's biggest risk.

Serious point: I found your choice of the word "unthinkable" thought provoking. I think that people's reluctance to consider "the unthinkable" is often the thing that turns an emergency into a disaster. Years of dealing with venue safety drummed into me the importance of emergency exits - keeping them working and clear. How many people "think" about how they would get out of their houses in a fire. I regularly catch myself consciously keeping our rear exit route clear of obstructions (i.e. I think about it) and I fear that many people seldom do. Is your back passage full of clutter? (Ooo Matron!)

mnem
they're like the piranhas of the dwagon world.