Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Specmaster]

So sitting here cleaning test gear again.

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

Yes, try using a dry marker pen, thats what I have used in the past.

Always read ahead before responding. You are a day late and a dollar short. 

OK, go piss up a rope 

[Saskia]

graphite can easily be removed using fluorine gas.

[Saskia]

as can Poettering.

[AVGresponding]

Your case is simple: everything above 3.000V is out of spec, and should be discarded.
If you think that the manual is wrong, you can always ask the manufacturer.

I don't think so; the manual describes 3.000V as "full scale".
...

Please explain in details, why over-range data should be considered valid; thanks in advance.

It's not over-range. 3.1V is over-range. The manual mentions the frequency measurements over 200kHz have unspecified accuracy. Why not just make them over-range? Why not make 3.001V on diode test over-range? Why not mention that 3.001V to 3.099V are unspecified accuracy? I think 3.1V is full scale, and the manual is just wrong.

I shall measure the VF of a string of diodes that reads between 3.001 and 3.099 on the F87 and see what a 6.5 digit meter says with a 0.6mA compliance current (the typical value for the F87 as per the manual). I'm betting it's within the accuracy specs for the 3.000V mentioned in the manual.

[bd139]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

[Zoli]

Your case is simple: everything above 3.000V is out of spec, and should be discarded.
If you think that the manual is wrong, you can always ask the manufacturer.

I don't think so; the manual describes 3.000V as "full scale".
...

Please explain in details, why over-range data should be considered valid; thanks in advance.

It's not over-range. 3.1V is over-range. The manual mentions the frequency measurements over 200kHz have unspecified accuracy. Why not just make them over-range? Why not make 3.001V on diode test over-range? Why not mention that 3.001V to 3.099V are unspecified accuracy? I think 3.1V is full scale, and the manual is just wrong.

I shall measure the VF of a string of diodes that reads between 3.001 and 3.099 on the F87 and see what a 6.5 digit meter says with a 0.6mA compliance current (the typical value for the F87 as per the manual). I'm betting it's within the accuracy specs for the 3.000V mentioned in the manual.

What you think and what the manufacturer specifies are two different things; the manufacturer spec is true for all the specified operating conditions(relative humidity, temperature, pressure).
To give you a more understandable example: 3.001V place you in Old Trafford, 3.000V place you on the playing field. 
But, as usual, you can ask the manufacturer, and/or submit correction request.

[xrunner]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

[AVGresponding]

Your case is simple: everything above 3.000V is out of spec, and should be discarded.
If you think that the manual is wrong, you can always ask the manufacturer.

I don't think so; the manual describes 3.000V as "full scale".
...

Please explain in details, why over-range data should be considered valid; thanks in advance.

It's not over-range. 3.1V is over-range. The manual mentions the frequency measurements over 200kHz have unspecified accuracy. Why not just make them over-range? Why not make 3.001V on diode test over-range? Why not mention that 3.001V to 3.099V are unspecified accuracy? I think 3.1V is full scale, and the manual is just wrong.

I shall measure the VF of a string of diodes that reads between 3.001 and 3.099 on the F87 and see what a 6.5 digit meter says with a 0.6mA compliance current (the typical value for the F87 as per the manual). I'm betting it's within the accuracy specs for the 3.000V mentioned in the manual.

What you think and what the manufacturer specifies are two different things; the manufacturer spec is true for all the specified operating conditions(relative humidity, temperature, pressure).
To give you a more understandable example: 3.001V place you in Old Trafford, 3.000V place you on the playing field. 
But, as usual, you can ask the manufacturer, and/or submit correction request.

You seem to think manufacturers never make mistakes.

FYI I just measured a collection of random diodes I manged to arrange to get a reading of 3.053V on the F87. I measured that voltage drop in parallel (quicker than making a whole new setup) with a Keithley 2015. It said 3.05242V. I don't even need to bother doing the maths, that's clearly well within the 2%+1 LSD spec, and well within the combined uncertainty of the meters.

I put it to you that the 3.000 figure in the manual is a typo, and should read 3.099V. Or perhaps they just felt 3.000V looked neater than 3.099V, such things have been known.

If they haven't bothered to correct the Hi Res firmware issue (afaik), why would they bother with a trivial typo?


EDIT: Incidentally, while the manual gives a figure of 0.6mA (typ) for diode test current, I measured mine as 0.78mA and change. That's 30% away from "typical". Make of that what you will.

[mnementh]

What was the beginning?   I've not followed it.

I've wondered many times why people are so keen to selling their excess.   How many life times it'll take to pay that hardware back.

Here I'd probably have to pay more /kWh if my usage goes under some electric heating level but that is probably all.
Then I read how somebody is selling watt hours.   I don't get it.

Though I do know that unauthorized panels are or used to be a big no-no in Spain.   My understanding is also that it includes all types of uses and that the reason is overall used grid power.

Well in some countries you were / are paid MORE for the power fed into the grid than you pay for power taken out of it. Sometimes a lot more. This is of course paid for by a "green" tax on all the other consumers.

I've often wondered if anyone out there was charging batteries during the night and feeding the grid in the day to make money....

Oh, I've no doubt that would last a hot minute before they instituted some averaging plan to curb such creative entrepreneurial spirit... 

mnem
But hey... you can still electrocute yourself for free!

[mnementh]

eBay Return Update:

Something new in the resolution process: Once you initiate the dispute resolution, you no longer have means to communicate from within the dispute, only via external PM with the seller. In this case, since eBay started the process, I never got the chance to enter the reasons for the dispute, or describe the condition it was received in.

Why the fuck would you EVER take communication out of the dispute resolution process? What fucking moron thought that was a good idea?

mnem
Tell me again why we ever buy anything from that shithole...?

[bd139]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

[Zoli]

...
You seem to think manufacturers never make mistakes.

FYI I just measured a collection of random diodes I manged to arrange to get a reading of 3.053V on the F87. I measured that voltage drop in parallel (quicker than making a whole new setup) with a Keithley 2015. It said 3.05242V. I don't even need to bother doing the maths, that's clearly well within the 2%+1 LSD spec, and well within the combined uncertainty of the meters.

I put it to you that the 3.000 figure in the manual is a typo, and should read 3.099V. Or perhaps they just felt 3.000V looked neater than 3.099V, such things have been known.

If they haven't bothered to correct the Hi Res firmware issue (afaik), why would they bother with a trivial typo?


EDIT: Incidentally, while the manual gives a figure of 0.6mA (typ) for diode test current, I measured mine as 0.78mA and change. That's 30% away from "typical". Make of that what you will.

Again, can you GUARANTEE that the readings what you've just done, stays within the specified limits for ALL specified conditions for ALL the manufactured DMM's(calibrated, OC)?
Because that's what the specification changes means.
And BTW, what is the required accuracy for "typical"? Old Trafford or playing field?
Anyway, I'm getting tired of this discussion, never mind you've barking at the wrong tree; I strongly recommend to contact Fluke, and continue the discussion with them, since they are responsible to the issues you've raised. 

[mnementh]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

3DP.

mnem
You know you want to.

[bd139]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

3DP.

mnem
You know you want to.

Is rather have inferior originals than inferior replacements 

[AVGresponding]

Again, can you GUARANTEE that the readings what you've just done, stays within the specified limits for ALL specified conditions for ALL the manufactured DMM's(calibrated, OC)?
Because that's what the specification changes means.

Yes. It's not hard, the specified conditions are not unusual.


EDIT: Though I'm not going to put the time and effort into such a tedious task without some form of reward, ie a bet, ie, put your money where your mouth is.

And BTW, what is the required accuracy for "typical"? Old Trafford or playing field?

More like "Manchester" by the looks of it.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of this discussion, never mind you've barking at the wrong tree; I strongly recommend to contact Fluke, and continue the discussion with them, since they are responsible to the issues you've raised.

Yes, I've often noticed people get tired of discussions once they've backed themselves into a corner.

I may raise the matter with Fluke, though frankly I suspect they will not care.

[Cerebus]

I need to go there again now. Nice photos 

Today when we got there (still overcast). Not a bugger in sight, bliss.

[Cerebus]

Etwas für Kenner or, less positive, gewöhnungsbedürftig.

As to my first photo, I'm still looking for an English translation of Während der Fahrt bitte festhalten. Literally: Please hold on during the ride.

The bus conductor's traditional cry, when ringing the bell for the driver to move off is: "Hold on tight please!".

[tautech]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

3DP.

mnem
You know you want to.

Is rather have inferior originals than inferior replacements 

Did you have a look in beanflyings thread ?
This was easy to find:
https://www.yeggi.com/goto/mJ6jmHl/se7iqZvd2ael4M/M1sLDdvbx9p2Z9u7jzOjm1ue0laHb67tz2trP2NLRuKun5ctjmeHSZKraz8LBgH15saurnQ==

[bd139]

I need to go there again now. Nice photos 

Today when we got there (still overcast). Not a bugger in sight, bliss.

Excellent (Mr Burns voice). Glorious place.  I may have to go down there in a couple of weeks and drag the 250mm lens with me 

Bzzt. Ping. Random musical interlude ....



Grace Slick FTW

[Cerebus]

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

Oh, I've been on that job, several times over and in several guises.

[bd139]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

3DP.

mnem
You know you want to.

Is rather have inferior originals than inferior replacements 

Did you have a look in beanflyings thread ?
This was easy to find:
https://www.yeggi.com/goto/mJ6jmHl/se7iqZvd2ael4M/M1sLDdvbx9p2Z9u7jzOjm1ue0laHb67tz2trP2NLRuKun5ctjmeHSZKraz8LBgH15saurnQ==

Yeah I found that as well.

I have a big problem with this approach if I'm honest. The issue is the material rather than damage or integrity as such as they are perfectly functional still. The problem that people seem to ignore is when you think about it for prolonged periods, particularly when slightly pissed on a bus, which is the best point of introspective clarity (no comment about this evening's activity - hic), there are flaws in the concept.

Applying this to 3DP, when you have it in your hands, it's not the same. It lacks the authenticity, the quality and the transient imperfection of the original part which means you're sacrificing some of the sensory joy and satisfaction.

Thus I believe I should probably look at the following priority stack when making repairs:

1. Enjoy it how it is if it isn't functionally flawed.
2. Make good and mend.
3. Replace with authentic part.
4. Maybe manufacture a new part.

3DP is the last resort.

[Cerebus]

as can Poettering.

Poettering is harder to get rid of than that. Chlorine Trifluoride would be my starting point.

[bd139]

Oh how the fuck did I miss this:

3x P6105 probes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195150781192

[bd139]

as can Poettering.

Poettering is harder to get rid of than that. Chlorine Trifluoride would be my starting point.

Well at least he's somewhere so damaged already that fucking it up harder is nearly impossible.

[mnementh]

More cleaning … haven’t had a 465B this good yet. Hope the IC works 

Good job. I'm thinking about those knobs on the AC/DC/GND selector. I wish I had some to play with because I want to try a reconditioning idea with some modelling paints (not colored paint mind you ...). Might or might not work. Hmmm oh well if I ever got some I might do it.

Yeah those are slightly irritating. Dipping them in enamel might be an option 

3DP.

mnem
You know you want to.

I'd rather have inferior originals than inferior replacements 

That's okay; they'll crumble to dust now that you're using it, just like two of the ones on my 454 did. Then the decision will be made for you.

Today's printers are a lot better... 0.12mm LH and 0.2mm nozzle support right out of the box on my CR-6SE. I'm very pleased with the little fiddly bits I've been able to make with it.

You might try painting the originals with epoxy to strengthen the plastic, then paint that with Testor's acrylic enamel. Worth taking a gamble. 

mnem