Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

This is extremely cool for an electronics book.

No Starch Press. Open Circuits: The Inner beauty of electronic components:

https://nostarch.com/open-circuits

Chapter 1 PDF https://nostarch.com/download/OpenCircuits_Chapter1.pdf

I will buy a hard copy of that when it comes out.

I've seen that before, and I like the the diagrams, clarity of the photos, and the brevity of the informative description. Brevity is all too rare nowadays.

That there are also diagrams and information indicates that careful thought has gone into how to educate the reader. Also all too rare nowadays.

<Carefully avoids standard diatriabe about yootoob talking-head vids, for brevity>

mnem
'nuff sed.

[mnementh]

Dear Kiwi,

I am extremely surprised by your reaction and I shall soon be seeking experienced, professional psychological help in order to recover, heal, overcome.... this traumatizing, severe disappointment.   

Thank you for this uncharacteristic display of brevity. 

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

Fuck forgot to bid on the Bourns ones 

Ah well - congratulations anyway 

I, on the other hand, succeeded with my bid.    

I personally quite like the way most Germans sound when they are talking in English, except when they sound as smug as a cat who's just discovered a hidden cache of tinned souris à la sauce creme avec catnip. 

[mnementh]

Seen today on Ebay UK, anybody requiring a 50Mhz LA, starting bid of only £15...   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255609408885
WTF is this?   

I think I saw something like that on a episode of Star Trek... 

mnem
Who knows... whatever it is growing in there, its DNA might contain the cure for cancer...

[Cerebus]

Normally when I'm driving and see a BMW, I scowl.

Why? All the people who used to give BMWs a bad name have moved on to driving Audis and Range Rovers.

Today I smiled, because the numberplate was S70P BS.

Up until recently you could have, if you were in the Liverpool area, seen PA55 SOS adoring a driving school BMW 320D. He's now swapped it for a Golf Gti and moved the plate to that.

[AVGresponding]

Ok this may offend some eyes so I will apologise here. 3776A has arrived. Damp box badly packaged but survived fine.

It is missing a couple of boards and the power supply does not come up so it’s scrap anyway.

This was only bought to strip for parts. It has been deconstructed to hardware and PCBs already. Lots of American screws and HP parts galore.

As arrived



Boards in situ



Guts post removal. These are stacked with very very nice parts.



We have precision resistors and capacitors here



Lots of HP leaf springs, LED displays and bubble displays!



Some rather rare bit slice processors



Also huge box of hardware and case components.

If anyone needs any bits out of this Google for the service manual, look through and and PM me and I’ll send them to you for postage cost.

Good to know that the passing of this device will allow many other HP boat anchors to live a bit longer. Shame the psu is a switcher, my hunt for a interwinding screened trafo continues...

[mnementh]

<snip>

gotta' agree with the dragon on this one.

with those two T-15 screws missing from the back the cabinet will almost fall off on its own.  (don't ask how i know)

even if you did not know there was supposed to be a display board inside, how could you not notice the ribbon cables hanging loose inside?

will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

edit  just looked and there are supposed to be 3 screws back there.  mine is missing one.

Agreed about the screws and the ribbon cable hanging loose etc, but I'm talking about the dragons claim that it is "not being as described", if you actually read the sellers description of the item, it fits the description precisely as the seller states

   "Condition:    
   
Overall Condition    AS-IS (Please view all pictures)
Cosmetics    Please view all pictures
Completeness    As seen in pictures
Functionality    AS-IS (Powers on / Unable to test further)"

They do mention that it was missing the handle, hence why I asked the dragon "Have you powered it up?, did the lights come on? ", if so then it matched the description as the seller also states that the unit is as shown in the photos. I was playing "Devil's advocate".

Now I may be totally wrong here, but I suspect that the seller is not a one-man band and so it is a reasonable assumption that the item might have been tested and packed by someone who does not have a clue what they are doing, maybe a school-leaver etc., the back may not have come off while they were wrapping it, therefore they would not have known the ribbon cables were hanging loose inside, who knows 

point taken.

ebay does say:

For parts or not working: The item does not function as intended and is not fully operational. This includes items that are defective in ways that render them difficult to use, items that require service or repair, or items missing essential components. See the seller's listing for full details

however, it does seem like maybe there was some misdirection going on?   when some one keeps telling you to look at the pictures of the outside of the box and then the problem is on the inside, it does make you wonder.

BUT i would not jump on the seller with both feet until he has had a chance to respond.  like you say.....the guy who did the packing might be a drone and may not have a clue.  hopefully there is a responsible adult around who will see the dragons pictures and realize that their written description was incomplete and did not properly describe the condition of the item.   (edit..."see the sellers's listing for full details"  he really did not provide any "details")

The thing y'all seem to be missing is that I did not file this dispute "Item not as Described". I called eBay customer support, explained the situation and asked them how this should be filed, and they told me that this is how to handle it, even started the dispute process for me.

mnem
 

[bd139]

Normally when I'm driving and see a BMW, I scowl.

Why? All the people who used to give BMWs a bad name have moved on to driving Audis and Range Rovers.

They’ve moved on from there too. They all drive Teslas now. Probably so there’s some plausible deniability about their driving being cunty.

[mnementh]

In your case everything seems perfectly normal and legit to me, unlike in Dragons' case...

Yes, but I was dealing with a private seller, Dragons is a corporate company who specialise in the marketing and selling of medical equipment, thus a high chance that the testing / listing is the result of a drone running in autopilot mode.

No, it's pretty obvious by looking at the seller's history that they buy large lots by the pallet and kit-bash them to make "working" units. Odds are that the 54624A seller put out just before this 54621D has the missing part in it.

Seriously, it's not rocket-surgery: These scopes are designed to be serviced by swapping parts; any drone can change a FRU. 

And again, as I said... as it is, you literally cannot pick this thing up without the guts spilling out onto the floor. That is beyond mere incompetence, and incompetence is not an acceptable excuse.

mnem
 

[mnementh]

ebay does say:

For parts or not working: The item does not function as intended and is not fully operational. This includes items that are defective in ways that render them difficult to use, items that require service or repair, or items missing essential components.

 See the seller's listing for full details
[...]

To me this means that yes, a missing board or other essential part is acceptable... SO LONG as the seller mentions it and the buyer therefore can know what he is buying !!!
Which sounds only fair and logical for both parties....

In this case the missing board was not mentioned nor even visible in the pictures, so that's breaching the terms to me ?!   

I think Dragon has a case...

I also believe dragon has a case, but should have given the seller a chance to rectify it as it clearly is a mistake in my view and it is all to easy to assume the seller has our level of knowledge, and knew about it, but I really doubt that in this instance. I think that the listing was done by a staff member know may have been told to test it and see if it powered up and then list accordingly. If you look closely at mnem's photos, you can clearly see the power supply and logic board are there and connected, so the fact that the display board is missing, would not have stopped the unit from powering up the lights as can be seen in the photos. The listing did state that the unit powered up the lights, not nothing on the screen, hence the listing was for parts / repair. I would not have expected a staff member or the average seller to attempt to go further than that and look inside the unit.

Yes I agree, no matter how sure you are that the seller is fishy and dishonest, I always play it "dumb and polite" in my first message, just in case I got carried away and as you said the seller simply is more clueless than he is dishonest. This also plays in your favour if you later need to get a third party involved, as you can show that your reaction was calm and legit, measured, rather than trying to roast the seller from the get go and abuse the system just to get your scope for free ! Which then would make YOU look like the bad guy and turn things around against you !

THEN, depending on how the seller responds to that first kind message, I can now really judge his mindset and level of honesty, and adjust accordingly, and start getting really angry and escalate things a step further...

This is what Dispute Resolution is for; filing the dispute is not in and of itself an attack, guys.
I have started this process. When I need to, I know how to speak so sweetly that sugar wouldn't melt in my mouth.

mnem
Now... as to how I speak of the seller in here, that's another story altogether.

[mnementh]

Fuck forgot to bid on the Bourns ones     Ah well - congratulations anyway 

I, on the other hand, succeeded with my bid.        

Nice pocket sword! I've carried a Recruit or a Spartan (or the equivalent Wenger) in my pocket since grand-dad gave me one of his when I was 10.

mnem
Accept no stubsitutes.

[BU508A]

Fuck forgot to bid on the Bourns ones 

Ah well - congratulations anyway 

I, on the other hand, succeeded with my bid.    

I personally quite like the way most Germans sound when they are talking in English, except when they sound as smug as a cat who's just discovered a hidden cache of tinned souris à la sauce creme avec catnip. 

Aunt BBC about purring cats:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180724-the-complicated-truth-about-a-cats-purr

  *purr*  *purr*  *purr*  *purr*  *purr*  *purr*  *purr*

[mnementh]

You do realize that their purr is how they eat your soul, right...? 

mnem
*toddles off to do something... else.*

[bd139]

Cat purring annoys me like ticking clocks and loud fans do 

[mnementh]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Cat purring annoys me like ticking clocks and loud fans do 

mnem
I prepared Explosive Runes today.

[m k]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

[bitseeker]

When I need to, I know how to speak so sweetly that sugar wouldn't melt in my mouth.

Oh, my!  


In other news, lots of new POI added to post #2 (the extension to the TE list in post #1). Does anyone actually use the POI lists to find stuff in this thread?

[mnementh]

mnem
yes. at least one dwagon uses it.

[AVGresponding]

Well, as promised, here's a (brief) report on the Agilent DMM logger interface. Progress has been hampered by several factors, including abysmally poor user manuals from Keysight (I might yet start calling them Keyshite publicly, and not just in my head), a Cat phone that only talks to my PC when it feels like it, some trial and error Android emulators for PC (none worked), and a pause for multiple reboots while I removed the pile of steaming crap glacially slow bloatware that is NI Labview.

Here's the wee gizmo, the U1177A:



Yes, it's a Bluetooth module that attaches to the back of the U12xx series DMMs. And no, it isn't Fluke yellow, it's Agilent orange!
Unexpectedly (not as described, should I file a claim..?) it also came with a usb adapter. Now, me being of a suspicious inquisitive turn of mind, I compared it to the usb adapter I'd recently purchased for the U1401B. Now obviously the housing and attachment are different, but the IR LED/phototransistor pair spacing is identical, so I decided to spudge the casings off.



Well then... there we have it. No point to try using the usb lead, eh? I may yet pm Daniel about the data logger for the U1401B incompatibility with win 10, but I suspect he will be unable to help, materially.
This does however pose another interesting possibility; if the BT module works, maybe it can be used with the U1401B with a 3DP adapter or something?

Anyway, back to the primary. The module has a 3-position switch on the back, off-setup-on. Setup is used with Hyper Terminal on the PC, very useful (not) on win10... The manuals get the pairing procedure wrong, again trial and error comes into play. After some buggering about I can even get the Keysight connection expert to talk to the meter, though the only command that works is IDN, and it appears to be completely incompatible with BenchVue.

Eventually I found the right software, and I can now connect the U1273A to either my phone or my PC:



The apparent difference in readings on the PC is down to comms latency.

So, being of an aforementioned mind, I tried the BT module with the U1401B, with some black heatshrink tubing to adapt the IR connectors, and after that, using the U1401B correct usb lead with the PC app. No dice as expected, but both the mobile and PC apps show they are trying to connect, and the "remote" annunciator activates on the meter. Obviously the two meters speak a different language. Does however kind of prove it's the Keysight software that's at fault though.

Wow, this post took nearly two hours to write and rewrite!   

There's a lot of duff info out there, pretty much any official Agilent link is dead; would have been nice if they could have redirected them to the Keysight equivalents. Quite a few RS and Farnell etc docs have Agilent links in them.

Apologies if you try to read this post while I'm editing the pic links in...

[mnementh]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

Yeah, ages ago we had a similar discussion; there was another member who was quite knowledgeable about these small-frame industrial monitors and even suggested some possible LCD substitutes. I don't know where to even begin looking for that.

mnem
 

[Specmaster]

<snip>
The thing y'all seem to be missing is that I did not file this dispute "Item not as Described". I called eBay customer support, explained the situation and asked them how this should be filed, and they told me that this is how to handle it, even started the dispute process for me.

mnem
 

Well, it's a real shame you didn't make that clear from the start  That said however, I still have to take exception to a point, you say that he is a seller of TE gear. I think that is stretching it a bit, the seller is clearly a seller of medical equipment, 7 pages of listings @ 60 items a page, that's 420 items or there about and only 3 items of TE gear (0.75%), the rest is pure medical, even his seller ID gives it away "tekyard_medical", I think maybe you're focussing too much on the "tek" part too much.

I think it is a case like the place that a few of us brought those TTi 3GHz counters from, they are a pure computer and IT related company that occasionally find a few items of TE gear in with the job lots that they bid on, and hence why we all got a good deal as they did not know the true worth of them or how to test them, and that I think maybe the case with your seller.

Yes I know that you have a case, and I'd be feeling rather pissed myself if it happened to me, however, I'd have been amazed if a friendly word with the seller wouldn't have yielded positive results without the aggravation. 

[factory]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

The 7403 is on the CDM-7SF191 in the 54645A/54600A/54615B, the newer CDM-7SX191 looks to use one or two transistors instead. The larger monitor boards look to use a similar signal processor IC, layout has changed a bit, need to find better pictures.

The boards in my CDM-7SF191 from 54615B, taken before the re-capicide.



Pictures of CDM-7SX191 from ePay listing.




David

[bd139]

Well, as promised, here's a (brief) report on the Agilent DMM logger interface. Progress has been hampered by several factors, including abysmally poor user manuals from Keysight (I might yet start calling them Keyshite publicly, and not just in my head), a Cat phone that only talks to my PC when it feels like it, some trial and error Android emulators for PC (none worked), and a pause for multiple reboots while I removed the pile of steaming crap glacially slow bloatware that is NI Labview.

Here's the wee gizmo, the U1177A:



Yes, it's a Bluetooth module that attaches to the back of the U12xx series DMMs. And no, it isn't Fluke yellow, it's Agilent orange!
Unexpectedly (not as described, should I file a claim..?) it also came with a usb adapter. Now, me being of a suspicious inquisitive turn of mind, I compared it to the usb adapter I'd recently purchased for the U1401B. Now obviously the housing and attachment are different, but the IR LED/phototransistor pair spacing is identical, so I decided to spudge the casings off.



Well then... there we have it. No point to try using the usb lead, eh? I may yet pm Daniel about the data logger for the U1401B incompatibility with win 10, but I suspect he will be unable to help, materially.
This does however pose another interesting possibility; if the BT module works, maybe it can be used with the U1401B with a 3DP adapter or something?

Anyway, back to the primary. The module has a 3-position switch on the back, off-setup-on. Setup is used with Hyper Terminal on the PC, very useful (not) on win10... The manuals get the pairing procedure wrong, again trial and error comes into play. After some buggering about I can even get the Keysight connection expert to talk to the meter, though the only command that works is IDN, and it appears to be completely incompatible with BenchVue.

Eventually I found the right software, and I can now connect the U1273A to either my phone or my PC:



The apparent difference in readings on the PC is down to comms latency.

So, being of an aforementioned mind, I tried the BT module with the U1401B, with some black heatshrink tubing to adapt the IR connectors, and after that, using the U1401B correct usb lead with the PC app. No dice as expected, but both the mobile and PC apps show they are trying to connect, and the "remote" annunciator activates on the meter. Obviously the two meters speak a different language. Does however kind of prove it's the Keysight software that's at fault though.

Wow, this post took nearly two hours to write and rewrite!   

There's a lot of duff info out there, pretty much any official Agilent link is dead; would have been nice if they could have redirected them to the Keysight equivalents. Quite a few RS and Farnell etc docs have Agilent links in them.

Apologies if you try to read this post while I'm editing the pic links in...

Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to go through it.

This is also why I ended up moving from test automation to commercial software. It was hell getting everything to work 

I was doing it only with the documentation provided for the software and hardware too as I was in a building with airgapped network and no windows 

[Kosmic]

When I need to, I know how to speak so sweetly that sugar wouldn't melt in my mouth.

Oh, my!  


In other news, lots of new POI added to post #2 (the extension to the TE list in post #1). Does anyone actually use the POI lists to find stuff in this thread?

Yes, I use the POI sometimes. Thanks for maintaining it