Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cerebus]

The point is that it is unwise to act on the presumption that future variants won't be a major problem.

Which is why I said "will tend to" rather than "will". There was no presumption, just a expression of likelihood based on knowing what tends to happen with viruses.

Plus we are all a couple of years older, and that translates to a 25% higher risk (I.e. doubles every 6 years)

You might be a couple of years older, but the collective we, the population, isn't.

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

[tautech]

Quick experiments on measuring noise.
So conclusions:

1. Digital scopes are shite for measuring RMS noise using traditional methods.
2. They might be ok using direct RMS measurements but that would need validating.
3. Buy a power or RMS voltmeter with thermal RMS sensor and an analogue scope
4. Noise is difficult to measure and you must consider instrument bandwidth.

FFS use the RMS measurement, that's what it's there for.

[Cerebus]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

So the standard reply to:

Interviewer: Mr. Bloke how are you going to spend your lottery winings?
Mr. Bloke: Well, I'll spend most of it on booze and women, and the rest I'll just fritter away.

[bd139]

Quick experiments on measuring noise.
So conclusions:

1. Digital scopes are shite for measuring RMS noise using traditional methods.
2. They might be ok using direct RMS measurements but that would need validating.
3. Buy a power or RMS voltmeter with thermal RMS sensor and an analogue scope
4. Noise is difficult to measure and you must consider instrument bandwidth.

FFS use the RMS measurement, that's what it's there for.

I did as noted. But the point is noise measurement is harder than that as the overall noise power is a function of bandwidth and all measurement devices have different bandwidth and sampling effects. For example the generator was set for 1V RMS noise, but the Siglent measures 666mV RMS noise. Now is that because the generator has a limited ability to generate noise at each frequency or is it the rolloff from the scope or is it because of the discrete sampling in the scope?

I'm interested in testing this against an analogue noise generator and a thermal RMS voltmeter and analogue scope to compare measurements as a project.

Then I want to normalise the measurement bandwidth via a low pass network within the scope of each instrument and see if it registers the same overall noise power.

Through some deduction that should give a better understanding of measuring noise power with non frequency domain instruments at least.

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

So the standard reply to:

Interviewer: Mr. Bloke how are you going to spend your lottery winings?
Mr. Bloke: Well, I'll spend most of it on booze and women, and the rest I'll just fritter away.

Nailed it.

On that note, have two meals out booked next week with the latter 

[BU508A]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

So the standard reply to:

Interviewer: Mr. Bloke how are you going to spend your lottery winings?
Mr. Bloke: Well, I'll spend most of it on booze and women, and the rest I'll just fritter away.

Nailed it.

On that note, have two meals out booked next week with the latter 

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[tautech]

Quick experiments on measuring noise.
So conclusions:

1. Digital scopes are shite for measuring RMS noise using traditional methods.
2. They might be ok using direct RMS measurements but that would need validating.
3. Buy a power or RMS voltmeter with thermal RMS sensor and an analogue scope
4. Noise is difficult to measure and you must consider instrument bandwidth.

FFS use the RMS measurement, that's what it's there for.

I did as noted. But the point is noise measurement is harder than that as the overall noise power is a function of bandwidth and all measurement devices have different bandwidth and sampling effects. For example the generator was set for 1V RMS noise, but the Siglent measures 666mV RMS noise. Now is that because the generator has a limited ability to generate noise at each frequency or is it the rolloff from the scope or is it because of the discrete sampling in the scope?

I'm interested in testing this against an analogue noise generator and a thermal RMS voltmeter and analogue scope to compare measurements as a project.

Then I want to normalise the measurement bandwidth via a low pass network within the scope of each instrument and see if it registers the same overall noise power.

Through some deduction that should give a better understanding of measuring noise power with non frequency domain instruments at least.

You say these things however in the post about it you only show p-p measurements.
Maybe you should start a thread on Noise spec measurements from various AWG and DSO's....there might be AWG or DSO bugs yet to be found.


Back to chainsawing today after getting rained out yesterday. 
Still, it was nice to swing on my big bertha chainsaw which hadn't been used in anger for a couple of years and now the 5' tree is down it can go back into stowage until needed again....big heavy brute of a thing.
I'll get a pic later....

[bd139]

Quick experiments on measuring noise.
So conclusions:

1. Digital scopes are shite for measuring RMS noise using traditional methods.
2. They might be ok using direct RMS measurements but that would need validating.
3. Buy a power or RMS voltmeter with thermal RMS sensor and an analogue scope
4. Noise is difficult to measure and you must consider instrument bandwidth.

FFS use the RMS measurement, that's what it's there for.

I did as noted. But the point is noise measurement is harder than that as the overall noise power is a function of bandwidth and all measurement devices have different bandwidth and sampling effects. For example the generator was set for 1V RMS noise, but the Siglent measures 666mV RMS noise. Now is that because the generator has a limited ability to generate noise at each frequency or is it the rolloff from the scope or is it because of the discrete sampling in the scope?

I'm interested in testing this against an analogue noise generator and a thermal RMS voltmeter and analogue scope to compare measurements as a project.

Then I want to normalise the measurement bandwidth via a low pass network within the scope of each instrument and see if it registers the same overall noise power.

Through some deduction that should give a better understanding of measuring noise power with non frequency domain instruments at least.

You say these things however in the post about it you only show p-p measurements.
Maybe you should start a thread on Noise spec measurements from various AWG and DSO's....there might be AWG or DSO bugs yet to be found.


Back to chainsawing today after getting rained out yesterday. 
Still, it was nice to swing on my big bertha chainsaw which hadn't been used in anger for a couple of years and now the 5' tree is down it can go back into stowage until needed again....big heavy brute of a thing.
I'll get a pic later....

Oops forgot that picture. here you go:



I'll raise a bug if I can't normalise a measurement first.

[tggzzz]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Not just Russia, it is the omnicrisis.

At this RPI, my pension will halve in value in about 7 years. And I can't do anything to improve that.

I should become a millionaire next week. Unfortunately since I have a daughter, that will only last a month or so.

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

So the standard reply to:

Interviewer: Mr. Bloke how are you going to spend your lottery winings?
Mr. Bloke: Well, I'll spend most of it on booze and women, and the rest I'll just fritter away.

Nailed it.

On that note, have two meals out booked next week with the latter 

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

Only the stupid persist after being burned

[Vince]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

[Specmaster]

The good news is that newer variants on Covid-19 will tend to be less virulent. A virus that kills its host, or disables so much that they take to their beds is a bad virus (as in "bad at being a virus", or "not good at it's job"), the death or voluntary isolation stops the virus spreading. Thus only relatively benign viruses have the wherewithal to be truly "successful" viruses. Evolution breeds excessive virulence out of viruses.

Like myxamotisis?

Understand the trajectory of myxamatosis https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/science/myxoma-virus-rabbits-covid.html

You're asking for a long, long dad joke that starts "A rabbit went into a bar...".

Not all viruses get less harmful over time as they mutate, but most do. For any infectious disease (or parasitic disease) to kill its host and survive itself it must either be (1) both highly virulent and highly infectious, or (2) take a long time to kill its host (e.g. rabies, syphilis), or (3) have a complex lifecycle involving multiple hosts, some of which it is harmless to (e.g. malaria), or (4) be capable of surviving for a long time without a host (e.g. sporulating infections like anthrax).

Selection pressure in most cases selects for less virulent and more infectious organisms. Simple probability says that random mutations that affect one aspect of harm (infectiousness, virulence, target species, complex life cycle, and so on) are more likely than random mutations that simultaneously affect two or more aspects. Simple probability also does not exclude this happening, just makes it less likely.

Yup.

Just as the new influenza variant just over a century ago was much nastier than its predecessors. That might happen with covid, or might not. This month's variants appear to hit the depths of the lungs more easily and harder, hence the rise in hospitalisations. Next month's?

The point is that it is unwise to act on the presumption that future variants won't be a major problem.

Plus we are all a couple of years older, and that translates to a 25% higher risk (I.e. doubles every 6 years)

Until the WHO says that we can all back to normal living again, I'm 73 now and well aware that I'm in the at risk category and that the risk is going to grow all the time as we age, I intend to keep my guard up and think that we all should do so. Just because our stupid Government no longer talk about it for their own greedy self-serving agenda, it sickens me to see that most of the public think its all over and done with and have stopped all of their precautions. Hence, why we are seeing this rise in cases since the Jubilee celebrations with mass get togethers acting as spreader events and more events coming up like Glastonbury etc which will be putting more of the elderly population at risk, particular those in care homes etc. We never seem to learn from past mistakes   

[Cubdriver]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Poor counters can’t get no love…. 


-Pat

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Not just Russia, it is the omnicrisis.

At this RPI, my pension will halve in value in about 7 years. And I can't do anything to improve that.

I should become a millionaire next week. Unfortunately since I have a daughter, that will only last a month or so.

Omnicrisis is a good way of putting it.

Similar situation. Alas it's mostly in liquid cash at the moment as it's being consolidated and moved around so when it's in the bank account it's just burning. It worked out better to pay a year's rent in the new place up front than pay monthly. I'll buy something else next year and move into that and ride it for as long as possible.

[Zoli]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

74HCT== Hi-speed Cmos Ttl-input-levels

[tggzzz]

The good news is that newer variants on Covid-19 will tend to be less virulent. A virus that kills its host, or disables so much that they take to their beds is a bad virus (as in "bad at being a virus", or "not good at it's job"), the death or voluntary isolation stops the virus spreading. Thus only relatively benign viruses have the wherewithal to be truly "successful" viruses. Evolution breeds excessive virulence out of viruses.

Like myxamotisis?

Understand the trajectory of myxamatosis https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/science/myxoma-virus-rabbits-covid.html

You're asking for a long, long dad joke that starts "A rabbit went into a bar...".

Not all viruses get less harmful over time as they mutate, but most do. For any infectious disease (or parasitic disease) to kill its host and survive itself it must either be (1) both highly virulent and highly infectious, or (2) take a long time to kill its host (e.g. rabies, syphilis), or (3) have a complex lifecycle involving multiple hosts, some of which it is harmless to (e.g. malaria), or (4) be capable of surviving for a long time without a host (e.g. sporulating infections like anthrax).

Selection pressure in most cases selects for less virulent and more infectious organisms. Simple probability says that random mutations that affect one aspect of harm (infectiousness, virulence, target species, complex life cycle, and so on) are more likely than random mutations that simultaneously affect two or more aspects. Simple probability also does not exclude this happening, just makes it less likely.

Yup.

Just as the new influenza variant just over a century ago was much nastier than its predecessors. That might happen with covid, or might not. This month's variants appear to hit the depths of the lungs more easily and harder, hence the rise in hospitalisations. Next month's?

The point is that it is unwise to act on the presumption that future variants won't be a major problem.

Plus we are all a couple of years older, and that translates to a 25% higher risk (I.e. doubles every 6 years)

Until the WHO says that we can all back to normal living again, I'm 73 now and well aware that I'm in the at risk category and that the risk is going to grow all the time as we age, I intend to keep my guard up and think that we all should do so. Just because our stupid Government no longer talk about it for their own greedy self-serving agenda, it sickens me to see that most of the public think its all over and done with and have stopped all of their precautions. Hence, why we are seeing this rise in cases since the Jubilee celebrations with mass get togethers acting as spreader events and more events coming up like Glastonbury etc which will be putting more of the elderly population at risk, particular those in care homes etc. We never seem to learn from past mistakes   

Indeed, but I'm not sure of the motivation. At some stage we will have to pay the interest on all the money spent during lockdown. It could be that They are refusing to loan the UK money on ter!s that are as favourable as in the past.

I was going to add a snarky joke/observation about this week's news, but that would be too close to being political.

[bd139]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

Actually the thing here is really good. The old 4000 series were slow as hell, fragile and had incompatibilities with other logic families. Some genius came along and said "hey if we do HCT then they get faster chips that work with TTL and go in the same sockets and don't blow up or suffer from migration deaths quite as quickly" thus the 74HC4060 counter was born.

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Poor counters can’t get no love…. 


-Pat

I'm in the market for some counters 

5334B, 5316B and 5381A are on the list of acceptable counters.

If anyone guesses the "theme" of those counters, you win bugger all other than my respect

[tggzzz]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Not just Russia, it is the omnicrisis.

At this RPI, my pension will halve in value in about 7 years. And I can't do anything to improve that.

I should become a millionaire next week. Unfortunately since I have a daughter, that will only last a month or so.

Omnicrisis is a good way of putting it.

Similar situation. Alas it's mostly in liquid cash at the moment as it's being consolidated and moved around so when it's in the bank account it's just burning. It worked out better to pay a year's rent in the new place up front than pay monthly. I'll buy something else next year and move into that and ride it for as long as possible.

This week about half my cash is earning 7%. Next week I'll have more cash, but it won't be earning anything like that.

Next year house prices won't go up, and are likely to fall. Doesn't bother me, but sproglet is being forced to buy one within 3 months (no fault eviction, self-employed, with a dog).

[Vince]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

Actually the thing here is really good. The old 4000 series were slow as hell, fragile and had incompatibilities with other logic families. Some genius came along and said "hey if we do HCT then they get faster chips that work with TTL and go in the same sockets and don't blow up or suffer from migration deaths quite as quickly" thus the 74HC4060 counter was born.

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

I don't  understand the comparison between the two ? I mean they are just different things. 4000 series has a voltage range of 3 to 15V. 74HC / HCT if I believe the datasheet I just pulled, is 2 to 6V.
I understand your points, taken...but if I need to supply the logic for whatever reason above 6V, I am screwed with 74-anything.
Or if the circuit doesn't have stable supply voltage and the logic cheap needs to be able to operate with a changing supply voltage ?! 

[tggzzz]

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

The 4000 series have one nice characteristic: operation at IIRC 3V to 15V

Back in the late 70s I used some to build a fllter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors, capable of measuring 1pW using  bog-standard LF351 op amps, and a dynamic range of 180dB (90dB optical).

[bd139]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Not just Russia, it is the omnicrisis.

At this RPI, my pension will halve in value in about 7 years. And I can't do anything to improve that.

I should become a millionaire next week. Unfortunately since I have a daughter, that will only last a month or so.

Omnicrisis is a good way of putting it.

Similar situation. Alas it's mostly in liquid cash at the moment as it's being consolidated and moved around so when it's in the bank account it's just burning. It worked out better to pay a year's rent in the new place up front than pay monthly. I'll buy something else next year and move into that and ride it for as long as possible.

This week about half my cash is earning 7%. Next week I'll have more cash, but it won't be earning anything like that.

Next year house prices won't go up, and are likely to fall. Doesn't bother me, but sproglet is being forced to buy one within 3 months (no fault eviction, self-employed, with a dog).

Depends where and what. The market I'm entering, in London, has competition from people downsizing from oversized houses into reasonable ones unfortunately. The prices won't be going down here.

[bd139]

I don't  understand the comparison between the two ? I mean they are just different things. 4000 series has a voltage range of 3 to 15V. 74HC / HCT if I believe the datasheet I just pulled, is 2 to 6V.
I understand your points, taken...but if I need to supply the logic for whatever reason above 6V, I am screwed with 74-anything.
Or if the circuit doesn't have stable supply voltage and the logic cheap needs to be able to operate with a changing supply voltage ?! 

It's probably cheaper now to just chuck a 78L05 in the circuit and be done. That will handle both problems for pocket change.

[Vince]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Poor counters can’t get no love…. 


-Pat

Just curious : the two instruments at the bottom... they have  a mix of period knobs, and next generation plastic knobs found on later HP TE... did HP create these hybrid monsters, they came from the factory like that  ?:!  or did you just put these knobs yourself to replace missing ones ? Not judging... just curious to learn... if HP did that themselves, I wanna know...