Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[tggzzz]

OK, I picked up the 5 meters. Here's the picture of the first...



I'll correct the "mad eye Moody" effect before flogging it for a fortune on fleabay.

I like it!

Not enough to buy it.

Needs a finishing touch I think, perhaps a big pink tongue on the needle, and then contrive to feed a varying voltage to it, such as a 0.5Hz sine with a DC offset in the centre of the scale.

The needle moves, but I'm not sure the meter moves. The battery compartment is corroded, the switches missing, PCB cracked, and even the precision resistors weren't.

I think I'll advertise it a "Taxidermy Avometer; no Avometers were harmed during the making of this artifact".

[bd139]

Heads up for Brits living in or close to Highbridge, Somerset, you might want to jump on these quickly, I would personally would but way too far away for me.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/2-sonartron-digital-valve-voltmeters-and-3-avometers/1434901970

I have already been in contact

Did you get them or what?

The seller is busy tomorrow (oops today).

So does that mean that you haven't sealed the deal yet then  Well worth taking a risk on IMO, quick before someone else beats you to it.

Just arranged to pick them up tomorrow. On Friday I may be able to a post a picture that is as offensive as that 80yo female.

OK, I picked up the 5 meters. Here's the picture of the first...



I'll correct the "mad eye Moody" effect before flogging it for a fortune on fleabay.

It did make me think of that absolutely dreadful show. It was, apparently, extremely popular in the 60s, but I never understood the attraction.

OTOH yootoob vids of that show are a good way of pointing out to, um, oversensitive youngsters just how much progress has been made.

Yes it was abysmal. Even if it wasn’t culturally insensitive it would have been complete and utter horse dung independently.

Hopefully flushed down the same memory hole as working mens clubs, casual sexual abuse and anything BBC from the 70s.

[factory]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

I second that, MCU is not needed and is actually more difficult to implement.

What is U4?
My prediction is EEPROM.
If so then you can read it on the fly with PLCC clip, not nice really since you obviously need also a centronics stump.
And of course the clip is a real bargain for a one timer thing.

Well could be but not many pins on that chip, and very few traces going to it. So would have to  be serial memory that the scope would therfore need to spend time at boot up to "unpack" into RAM for fast parallel access. A bit awkward and convoluted... but still technically possible. So, just to make sure, I removed that sticker and had a look.... nope, not a memory. A humble 16V8 PAL chip for glue logic, hence why it's right by the expansion connector and so few lines are going to it. Just doing some address decoding.

So... there is no F/W in the module, so we don't give a crap about losing the contents of the NVRAM chips once they go bad, it's just user data/ stored waveforms, not code nor cal data or anything sensitive...

mnem's module definitely has some ROM but I understand the GPIB controller is self sufficient so the storage must be for something else.
Same U4 is there also, maybe a needed module ID is there, then those battery memories can be totally secondary.

Yes, it is my understanding that these modules all contain software for various math functions (and the extra space in there is where the games are stored) as well as additional storage for waveforms. The difference between them is the additional I/O, whether RS-232 & Parallel port, GPIB, etc... and whatever FW/SW is needed to make that interface work.

mnem
 

Both Vince & myself have removed the module and found the easter egg/game still works without it.
I'm sure I've posted this picture before of mine.


Is it possible to change the mainboard firmware for newer versions, as with the Teks, would this affect the easter egg game too?

David

[mnementh]

As does the badger easter-egg in my 54645A. I believe you can actually have more than one game/toy depending on what's in the specific module you screw on the back.

mnem
 

[mnementh]

HP SCOPE   ...I declare this scope a 100% winner.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3180550/#msg3180550

I knew there was something kept niggling at me with all this 54645D joy... It wasn't until I went back and looked at my teardown of my 54645A linked above that I realized what it was:

Just a word of warning...

There is a RIFA stink-bomb in the PSU (and it's got that lovely "capacitor oven design" we all love so dearly ) you'll wanna evict with extreme prejudice before you declare the ol' girl 100% "Fit as a fiddle and ready for love..."

mnem
*time to get the chiddlers*

[factory]

HP SCOPE

...snip...

So in short.... this scope is a 100% WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER from top to bottom !!!   


Only slight thing I found "wrong" with it, if I dare, is a sliiight geometry problem with the picture on the CRT. It's not even visible on my pictures I think, but it is in the flesh. Problem is the picture is not perfectly rectangular. It is more like trapezoidal, with the upper edge being a bit shorter/narrower/squeezed than the lower edge, which looks fine. Looks a bit like the intro text in the old Star Wars movie...
But it's very slight. I will look in the manual, calibration procedure section to see if there might be trimmer in the CRT board that looks after that particular aspect of the geometry.  If not, then I guess some proper troubleshooting is on order, which would be fun and interesting and educational (I know squat about CRT circuitry...), since we have the schematics for this scope. Well, have not yet looked a them in detail, so I am hoping they are complete, including the CRT stuff and power supply, not just the main board...

As far as I know the outsourced parts, i.e. CRT module & PSU, are not covered by the manual, the only CRT module schematics are for the early version. Certainly not the Hitachi unit I have in mine, which still has the uncommon intermittent fault, that a re-capicideᵀᴹ doesn't cure.

And that RIFA in the PSU was a PITA to remove, due to the large groundplane connection and my old tech Pace iron.

David

[bd139]

Gumtree scope dude came back to me again after I ignored him. He wants £150 for the 7633. I think that's a no. If all the knobs were perfect then I still wouldn't consider it.


Been working on a project for a bit...

session:

Code: [Select]

$ echo "eng in in inv swap inv + inv out" > prog
$ echo "12e3 12e3" | ./pec prog
6e3

 

Edited to add some context.

[Peter_O]

My HP54504A 400MHz Scope was waiting for some more probes able to adapt to the 7pf input.
Most of the standard probes go down to 10pf.



Now I got a nice coupe in one catch: A 10430A and a 10441A for quite reasonable 70 Euros.
In fine condition. Nothing bent, broken or badly worn.



And with quite some accessories and a spare tip.

[Robert763]

Data logging, old skool:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295040057246

Not data logging. Fairly unknown and now useless device. It’s actually an off air frequency standard. Uses 200kHz and has a OCXO inside it. The the chart recorder actually records the drift.

So one for the time nuts. But only UK time nuts.

Useless because someone moved the reference to 198KHz.

If anyone else doesn’t want it I may have a go at it.

These do not even have an OCXO, just a crystal. They have no holdover capability. If not locked they are no better than a simple crystal Even locked the are not as good as a proper OCXO. even the simplest GPSDO beats them hands down. They can be converted to 198kHz but it's hardly worth the touble. I was watching it and was thinking of bidding but just for the case. TBH it's hardly worth the starting price and postage.

EDIT doh throughly beaten to the OCXO issue. They do have lots of adjustable pot cores in them (200kHz filter)
To be clear I won't be bidding.

[Specmaster]

Gumtree scope dude came back to me again after I ignored him. He wants £150 for the 7633. I think that's a no. If all the knobs were perfect then I still wouldn't consider it.


Been working on a project for a bit...

session:

Code: [Select]

$ echo "eng in in inv swap inv + inv out" > prog
$ echo "12e3 12e3" | ./pec prog
6e3

 

Edited to add some context.

Miles away from his opening shot of £1  , that's a crazy valuation 

[bd139]

Data logging, old skool:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295040057246

Not data logging. Fairly unknown and now useless device. It’s actually an off air frequency standard. Uses 200kHz and has a OCXO inside it. The the chart recorder actually records the drift.

So one for the time nuts. But only UK time nuts.

Useless because someone moved the reference to 198KHz.

If anyone else doesn’t want it I may have a go at it.

These do not even have an OCXO, just a crystal. They have no holdover capability. If not locked they are no better than a simple crystal Even locked the are not as good as a proper OCXO. even the simplest GPSDO beats them hands down. They can be converted to 198kHz but it's hardly worth the touble. I was watching it and was thinking of bidding but just for the case. TBH it's hardly worth the starting price and postage.

To be fair I was mostly considering it for parts. It has:

1. A bunch of nice quality BNC connectors
2. A Sifam panel meter
3. A chart recorder which could be fun to play with
4. An HP logo that can be stuck on something else more deserving
5. A good selection of spare American thread screws
6. An extremely rare old style HP mains lead.

 

[Vince]

HP SCOPE

...snip...

So in short.... this scope is a 100% WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER from top to bottom !!!   


Only slight thing I found "wrong" with it, if I dare, is a sliiight geometry problem with the picture on the CRT. It's not even visible on my pictures I think, but it is in the flesh. Problem is the picture is not perfectly rectangular. It is more like trapezoidal, with the upper edge being a bit shorter/narrower/squeezed than the lower edge, which looks fine. Looks a bit like the intro text in the old Star Wars movie...
But it's very slight. I will look in the manual, calibration procedure section to see if there might be trimmer in the CRT board that looks after that particular aspect of the geometry.  If not, then I guess some proper troubleshooting is on order, which would be fun and interesting and educational (I know squat about CRT circuitry...), since we have the schematics for this scope. Well, have not yet looked a them in detail, so I am hoping they are complete, including the CRT stuff and power supply, not just the main board...

As far as I know the outsourced parts, i.e. CRT module & PSU, are not covered by the manual, the only CRT module schematics are for the early version. Certainly not the Hitachi unit I have in mine, which still has the uncommon intermittent fault, that a re-capicideᵀᴹ doesn't cure.

David

Ah, that sucks  ! Guess I will have to leave with that geometry issue then.... luckily it's very, very minor.... my brain will probably get used to it after a while and fool me into thinking it magically fixed itself... brains can do great things sometimes...

[Vince]

HP SCOPE   ...I declare this scope a 100% winner.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3180550/#msg3180550

I knew there was something kept niggling at me with all this 54645D joy... It wasn't until I went back and looked at my teardown of my 54645A linked above that I realized what it was:

Just a word of warning...

There is a RIFA stink-bomb in the PSU (and it's got that lovely "capacitor oven design" we all love so dearly ) you'll wanna evict with extreme prejudice before you declare the ol' girl 100% "Fit as a fiddle and ready for love..."

mnem
*time to get the chiddlers*

OK thanks, will be looking at that.... can't buy anything right now but will see if I have some suitable cap in my stock...

[Vince]

Hey, that's my hand!

I had to pop the cover off my 54657A to iron out this hickey:
PIC
in the shell, so I took a couple pix of the inside for comparison and future reference.

Yup... DALLAS DS1244Y-120 & DS1245Y-120; I read the date as 2002, so maybe a few more years if I'm really lucky.

Ghaaaah. ~$90 just for the two NVRAM, then I need to get a working programmer. *sigh* I also need to do the same thing with the NVRAM in my 3478A... 

Nope. If I'm gonna spend that money, it'll be on the 54659A I actually want on my scope, not this module that I bought just cuz it was cheap and right there.

I'm just gonna button this one up and use it til it loses its mind.   

mnem
*tinker-tinker... putter-putter...*

I can send you over my old Willem  Then you can convince it to work from an RPI GPIO using Python 
As side inspiration, I've seen some Dallas replacement projects, but for TEK - sorry  Maybe is time to do it for HP? 

You mean like this and the similar mod for the 246x family?

    

Or you mean hacking the epoxy and doing one of these...? Given how expensive the chips are, might do that once any data is extracted; but not likely gonna wanna try that on a live NVRAM still on the board...

For extracting the data backups I've several times considered doing something like the AR488 GPIB:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ar488-arduino-based-gpib-adapter/

But so far, I have not been able to convince myself to take the deep dive. 

mnem
 

Hey, that's my hand! 

I've been thinking of taking to a Dallas NVRAM with a bastard file, take the top off and expose then remove the old battery and glue a new battery holder on top.

The good thing about the TDS500, 600, 700 series scopes is the cal data is held in some I2C PROM chips on tje acquisition board so you don't need to recal after playing with the NVRAMs.
It's trivial to read out the contents of the NVRAMs via GPIB, have at the chips to make a Frankenstein's monster, then stick them back in and load the data back on via GPIB again.

Might be more dicey for equipment that has cal data and other critical data unless you rip and dump it, but once you have a copy of the data backed up, file away!

Wow, well done Terra, you went to town designing these little home made replacement modules !
Your customers are lucky for sure, a nice TDS they will get....

[factory]

Even cheaper, at £20: https://www.gumtree.com/p/hobbies-collectibles/signal-generator-and-storage-oscilloscope/1434900042
1. An Advance Signal Generator Type SG66.
2. A Tektronix Type 564 Dual Channel Storage Oscilloscope.

I don't have room to store them anywhere remotely suitable; it would have to be a leaky garden shed!

That SG66. Want.

Are you sure? it would probably cost more than it's worth to ship it, as it's vacuum bulb based & approx 32lbs.
It's good for 5c/s to 125kc/s or 5Hz to 150kHz depending on which manual you believe.  Actually the scale differs depending on age, 95V to 135V operation is available though.

David

[factory]

Data logging, old skool:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295040057246

Not data logging. Fairly unknown and now useless device. It’s actually an off air frequency standard. Uses 200kHz and has a OCXO inside it. The the chart recorder actually records the drift.

So one for the time nuts. But only UK time nuts.

Useless because someone moved the reference to 198KHz.

If anyone else doesn’t want it I may have a go at it.

These do not even have an OCXO, just a crystal. They have no holdover capability. If not locked they are no better than a simple crystal Even locked the are not as good as a proper OCXO. even the simplest GPSDO beats them hands down. They can be converted to 198kHz but it's hardly worth the touble. I was watching it and was thinking of bidding but just for the case. TBH it's hardly worth the starting price and postage.

To be fair I was mostly considering it for parts. It has:

1. A bunch of nice quality BNC connectors
2. A Sifam panel meter
3. A chart recorder which could be fun to play with
4. An HP logo that can be stuck on something else more deserving
5. A good selection of spare American thread screws
6. An extremely rare old style HP mains lead.

 

I'm sure Robert picked up an A & B of these for very little, in the last year or so, bit disappointed he's more interested in reusing the case .

David

[nixiefreqq]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

I second that, MCU is not needed and is actually more difficult to implement.

What is U4?
My prediction is EEPROM.
If so then you can read it on the fly with PLCC clip, not nice really since you obviously need also a centronics stump.
And of course the clip is a real bargain for a one timer thing.

Well could be but not many pins on that chip, and very few traces going to it. So would have to  be serial memory that the scope would therfore need to spend time at boot up to "unpack" into RAM for fast parallel access. A bit awkward and convoluted... but still technically possible. So, just to make sure, I removed that sticker and had a look.... nope, not a memory. A humble 16V8 PAL chip for glue logic, hence why it's right by the expansion connector and so few lines are going to it. Just doing some address decoding.

So... there is no F/W in the module, so we don't give a crap about losing the contents of the NVRAM chips once they go bad, it's just user data/ stored waveforms, not code nor cal data or anything sensitive...

mnem's module definitely has some ROM but I understand the GPIB controller is self sufficient so the storage must be for something else.
Same U4 is there also, maybe a needed module ID is there, then those battery memories can be totally secondary.

Yes, it is my understanding that these modules all contain software for various math functions (and the extra space in there is where the games are stored) as well as additional storage for waveforms. The difference between them is the additional I/O, whether RS-232 & Parallel port, GPIB, etc... and whatever FW/SW is needed to make that interface work.

mnem
 

Both Vince & myself have removed the module and found the easter egg/game still works without it.
I'm sure I've posted this picture before of mine.


Is it possible to change the mainboard firmware for newer versions, as with the Teks, would this affect the easter egg game too?

David

tried the same thing with my 54601a and tetris still worked.

but waveform multiplication, integration, and differentiation went away along with timestamps.
some of the cursor measurements went away too.  (phase angle and percentage).

other stuff is probably missing too,  but those are the features i noticed.

the clock works with the module plugged in..... until you power down and then the date/time gets trashed.

[med6753]

Even cheaper, at £20: https://www.gumtree.com/p/hobbies-collectibles/signal-generator-and-storage-oscilloscope/1434900042
1. An Advance Signal Generator Type SG66.
2. A Tektronix Type 564 Dual Channel Storage Oscilloscope.

I don't have room to store them anywhere remotely suitable; it would have to be a leaky garden shed!

That SG66. Want.

Are you sure? it would probably cost more than it's worth to ship it, as it's vacuum bulb based & approx 32lbs.
It's good for 5c/s to 125kc/s or 5Hz to 150kHz depending on which manual you believe.  Actually the scale differs depending on age, 95V to 135V operation is available though.

David

Yep, I realize that. Wishful thinking. But if it were here I'd definitely go after it. 

[tggzzz]

Even cheaper, at £20: https://www.gumtree.com/p/hobbies-collectibles/signal-generator-and-storage-oscilloscope/1434900042
1. An Advance Signal Generator Type SG66.
2. A Tektronix Type 564 Dual Channel Storage Oscilloscope.

I don't have room to store them anywhere remotely suitable; it would have to be a leaky garden shed!

That SG66. Want.

Are you sure? it would probably cost more than it's worth to ship it, as it's vacuum bulb based & approx 32lbs.
It's good for 5c/s to 125kc/s or 5Hz to 150kHz depending on which manual you believe.  Actually the scale differs depending on age, 95V to 135V operation is available though.

David

If you are really interested, med, I'll PM you his telephone number (he has agreed to that). He is interested in minimum hassle.

[med6753]

Even cheaper, at £20: https://www.gumtree.com/p/hobbies-collectibles/signal-generator-and-storage-oscilloscope/1434900042
1. An Advance Signal Generator Type SG66.
2. A Tektronix Type 564 Dual Channel Storage Oscilloscope.

I don't have room to store them anywhere remotely suitable; it would have to be a leaky garden shed!

That SG66. Want.

Are you sure? it would probably cost more than it's worth to ship it, as it's vacuum bulb based & approx 32lbs.
It's good for 5c/s to 125kc/s or 5Hz to 150kHz depending on which manual you believe.  Actually the scale differs depending on age, 95V to 135V operation is available though.

David

If you are really interested, med, I'll PM you his telephone number (he has agreed to that). He is interested in minimum hassle.

Thanks for the offer but yea, cost of shipping is not worth it.

[Robert763]

Data logging, old skool:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295040057246

Not data logging. Fairly unknown and now useless device. It’s actually an off air frequency standard. Uses 200kHz and has a OCXO inside it. The the chart recorder actually records the drift.

So one for the time nuts. But only UK time nuts.

Useless because someone moved the reference to 198KHz.

If anyone else doesn’t want it I may have a go at it.

These do not even have an OCXO, just a crystal. They have no holdover capability. If not locked they are no better than a simple crystal Even locked the are not as good as a proper OCXO. even the simplest GPSDO beats them hands down. They can be converted to 198kHz but it's hardly worth the touble. I was watching it and was thinking of bidding but just for the case. TBH it's hardly worth the starting price and postage.

To be fair I was mostly considering it for parts. It has:

1. A bunch of nice quality BNC connectors
2. A Sifam panel meter
3. A chart recorder which could be fun to play with
4. An HP logo that can be stuck on something else more deserving
5. A good selection of spare American thread screws
6. An extremely rare old style HP mains lead.

 

I'm sure Robert picked up an A & B of these for very little, in the last year or so, bit disappointed he's more interested in reusing the case .

David

Good memory. Done nothing with them other than confirm they were still on 200kHz. They are rougher than this example.
EDIT:
I have 5 or six GPSDO's and a 198kHz locked standard. Last thing I need is to modify a 200kHz locked standard.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Sometimes your own lazyness comes back at you and bites you in the rear.

I inventoried my solder. Should have been a quick affair - until I realized that there must be another, different roll of SnPbAg. I suspected it to hide in a certain drawer.
In order to access that drawer, the drawer above needed to be closed.
In order to close that drawer, the content needed to be rearranged.
During this process, several new questions connected with the tools inventory popped up.

Around 2 hours later: roll of solder found.
About 3 hours later: auxiliary piles sorted and stowed.

Now to tired to solder.

[mansaxel]

OK thanks, will be looking at that.... can't buy anything right now but will see if I have some suitable cap in my stock...

I have new RIFAs, i.e. Kemet caps of same construction. Bought new, from Mouser, so OK now and well into my retirement. 100n, raster measurement ~15mm. 2 of those in an envelope is not a problem.

[Vince]

Both Vince & myself have removed the module and found the easter egg/game still works without it.
I'm sure I've posted this picture before of mine.


Is it possible to change the mainboard firmware for newer versions, as with the Teks, would this affect the easter egg game too?

David

tried the same thing with my 54601a and tetris still worked.

but waveform multiplication, integration, and differentiation went away along with timestamps.
some of the cursor measurements went away too.  (phase angle and percentage).

other stuff is probably missing too,  but those are the features i noticed.

the clock works with the module plugged in..... until you power down and then the date/time gets trashed.

Yes your list is almost complete ! 

Here is what the module manual says it implements :

***************************

* Full Programmability.
• Hardcopy output.
• Three additional automatic voltage measurements (amplitude,
preshoot, and overshoot).
• Two additional automatic time measurements (delay and phase
angle). User defined measurement thresholds of 10%/90%,
20%/80%, or selected voltage levels.
• Two additional cursor measurements (voltage in percent and time
in degrees).
• Two additional cursor measurement sources (math function 1
and 2).
• Waveform math functions (addition, subtraction, multiplication,
differentiation, integration, and FFT)
• Time and date tagging of hard copy and and nonvolatile memories.
Three uncompressed nonvolatile trace memories.
• Additional 64K of nonvolatile trace memory (with data
compression) for up to 97 more trace memories..
• Unattended waveform monitoring by use of mask templates.
• Built-in automatic mask generation and mask editing capabilities.

***************************

[Vince]

OK thanks, will be looking at that.... can't buy anything right now but will see if I have some suitable cap in my stock...

I have new RIFAs, i.e. Kemet caps of same construction. Bought new, from Mouser, so OK now and well into my retirement. 100n, raster measurement ~15mm. 2 of those in an envelope is not a problem.

Wow, that's very kind of you, offer accepted, thank you very much !

I just zoomed on the picture I took of the PSU in my scope. Looks like the RIFA in it is marked 47nF, so replacing it with 100nF should be OK I guess...

See you in your PM !