Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Vince]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

Oh, so it was just marketing BS then ? The modules don't hold any code to implement all the features they supposedly add to the scope ? Modules are merely a dongle to unlock existing functionality present on the scope from day one ?! 
Then the two NVRAM chips in the module hold nothing but user data hence we don't give a crap about the batteries dying do we !!!
That's cool... see, NixieFreqq ? Nothing to be scared of !!!   

So... that means that a clever chap could figure out how to unlock all the extra features on a scope even in the absence of any module... cool 
Well I mean minus the RTC time stamping, and extra memory to store traces, of course...

[xrunner]

Mugs, mugs, mugs ...

[Ice-Tea]

Bingo!



...

Gonna need it.

Did they give you a price per kilo for those?? What are you going to do with that many current clamps (other than satisfy your TEA addiction for a further 48 hours)?

McBryce.

Well, sell them to morronic clows esteemed customers obviously ;-)

[tautech]

Mugs, mugs, mugs ...

That’s no way to address all your buddies here ! 

But wow, how many do you have ?

[xrunner]

Mugs, mugs, mugs ...

That’s no way to address all your buddies here ! 

But wow, how many do you have ?

I got more around here might be in the attic. A lot of them came from vendors that were having their products tested in the lab I worked in. As you can tell, it had to do with RF and IR countermeasures systems.

[TERRA Operative]

Tonight's auction win. 15600yen for a CT-4 and what looks like might be a TCP202 hiding there too  , no images show the part number but not much else it can be...

No one else bid too, so I got it for a lot less than these usually go for. (Just the TCP202 usually goes for triple here...)

[m k]

The other recently ordered lead amputation apparatus arrived in the mailbox today.  As with the other one, verrah naace.



-Pat

How deep between .1" DIL legs its jaws go?

I have practically unused 7285 because its jaws are too thick.
When old micro jaws go "very" deep.

E,
Dam, body side that is, of course.

I think he meant beween pins at the IC body. This is needed when cutting out the body and removing the pins one by one. It's the best method to prvent damage to a PCB.

D'oh!  Obvious in hindsight.     Let's try that again...

I think it fits well enough to be used:




-Pat

<edit to add - thanks for pointing out what I should have picked up on, Robert!>

Very good, thank you.

It is proven then, 8140 is small enough and no need to get those 2x 3x priced extra fine extra pliers.

These 7238 are also 10mm wide but can't go even between EPROM pins and they are narrower.
I remember I've used angled ones a long ago and straight ones are much better for hand ergonomics, and can crunch leftover plastics very easily.

For casual reader,
back in the day I've occasionally revisioned around a thousand legs/module, that level you really like good tools.

[m k]

OK, but what makes the Type 422 so special?

No...you can't have mine. 

No ICs. A late 453 will suffice too 

The 454 has none too and you get 150MHz B/W in the deal as opposed to only 50MHz B/W in the 453.

Is 454A completely without nuvistors?

[mnementh]

Are you looking specifically for these because super-clean power?

      https://www.ebay.com/itm/294822687771

For you or anyone looking for PSUs in this range... (0-60V @2A, +5V fixed @3A) I've been eyeballing this one from Alltest for a while, but just can't seem to make myself pull the trigger as I have so many such bricks, including my Lambdas. If HP quality isn't the primary concern, this might be a good one to look at; I'm not personally familiar with the brand, but a quick Gurrgle indicates it's considerably underpriced at $40 + S/H.

They also have a number of them that are much shinier and supposedly tested for $100 ea +S/H: https://www.ebay.com/itm/144419028066

mnem
*too juicy*

Hmmmm, those are some decent prices.  Shipping to the GWN will likely double the price.  However, the seller I still have plans to go see has some triple and quadruple output Xantrex PSUs, for approximately double the prices of the combined Alltest & shipping (ie. 4 times the AllTest price).
The advantage is the HPAK PSUs are reasonably priced, and I can do local pickup for most of what I want (the other bits are local pickup to my parents when I go visit).

*Note: my definition of local is more expensive/longer distance than most of you due to living out in the boonies.

That sounds about right - I put this one in my cart on ebay.ca, and it came out at $40 for the PSU, and $39 for shipping/import via eBay Global shipping to Ottowa, which is exactly what I paid to ship my 54645A. That would be right around CAD $101...? So I'd expect the "Tested" version to be right around CAD$181 to you.

Getting that much iron delivered to the GWN for $CAD50/USD$40 including the PM's cut and their legendary packing, seems a right good deal to me. 

Just did a quick search, and they have oodles of DC PSUs right now, including some TTi multi-output models (not sure if those are the ones with the bass-ackwards relay/exploding FET design flaw) and several HP units.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_ssn=alltest_surplus&store_cat=0&store_name=alltestsurplus&_oac=1&_nkw=dc+power+supply&_sop=15

mnem
 

[m k]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

I second that, MCU is not needed and is actually more difficult to implement.

What is U4?
My prediction is EEPROM.
If so then you can read it on the fly with PLCC clip, not nice really since you obviously need also a centronics stump.
And of course the clip is a real bargain for a one timer thing.

[mnementh]

Some thoughts on scopes actually.

I won’t own an old digital scope now. There’s too much unfixable stuff to worry about, very little service info for most of them and the prices are too high compared to some of the new digital scopes. And you actually get probes, a warranty and some excellent features with the new ones.

So on this cycle I actually want to concentrate on some projects so I’m going to keep it to the Siglent and possibly a 7k and that’s it. Should have enough room for a 7k and associated cart soon you see 

I will of course make exceptions for the following which are instant buys:

1. Tek 422
2. Hameg HM103

As far as 7000 series goes I’d like a 7504 for the sheer engineering beauty http://golddredgervideo.com/kc0wox/tek/7504/detailedpictures.htm

You need to have Vince shop you a MegaZoom 546xx... 

No, I get it. At the prices I'm seeing for them in the UK on fleaBay right now, they're just batshit crazy; you can literally buy new retail for what they want out of these scopes.

But for the rest of us who can still pick them up for $100-150 if we're patient... I still say the MegaZoom 546xx is a deal that's damned hard to beat. A great daily driver for a pittance.

mnem
Okay, maybe two pittances...

[med6753]

OK, but what makes the Type 422 so special?

No...you can't have mine. 

No ICs. A late 453 will suffice too 

The 454 has none too and you get 150MHz B/W in the deal as opposed to only 50MHz B/W in the 453.

Is 454A completely without nuvistors?

I don't know and TekWiki doesn't mention it.

[m k]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

Oh, so it was just marketing BS then ? The modules don't hold any code to implement all the features they supposedly add to the scope ? Modules are merely a dongle to unlock existing functionality present on the scope from day one ?! 
Then the two NVRAM chips in the module hold nothing but user data hence we don't give a crap about the batteries dying do we !!!
That's cool... see, NixieFreqq ? Nothing to be scared of !!!   

So... that means that a clever chap could figure out how to unlock all the extra features on a scope even in the absence of any module... cool 
Well I mean minus the RTC time stamping, and extra memory to store traces, of course...

If the chip under a sticker is a ROM there can still be something that is necessary for unlocking.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Mugs, mugs, mugs ...

Ok, you can stop now. I'm jealous.

[m k]

OK, but what makes the Type 422 so special?

No...you can't have mine. 

No ICs. A late 453 will suffice too 

The 454 has none too and you get 150MHz B/W in the deal as opposed to only 50MHz B/W in the 453.

Is 454A completely without nuvistors?

I don't know and TekWiki doesn't mention it.

I read that some of them can be replaced with something newer pretty easily.
Can that be taken as a norm?

[mnementh]

Stop encouraging me 

You get you a 454, I'll even print you up one-a-deez. 

mnem
 

[Vince]

OK, but what makes the Type 422 so special?

No...you can't have mine. 

No ICs. A late 453 will suffice too 

The 454 has none too and you get 150MHz B/W in the deal as opposed to only 50MHz B/W in the 453.

Is 454A completely without nuvistors?

I don't know and TekWiki doesn't mention it.

Because I am nice, I downloaded the SM for the 454A from Tekwiki and looked at the parts list and all schematics one by one. Zero Nuvistor in sight. FET transistors instead.

[Vince]

So total we have 48KB of RAM. But where is the F/W stored, that implements all the extra features ? No EPROM on the board, strange...
I see a chip that might be a micro-controller, so I thought maybe it holds the F/W... it's SCN2661, found the datasheet... oh no, no MCU, just a standalone UART controller to drve the serial port...

So... that means the F/W is stored in RAM ?!!    How evil , twisted do you have to be to do that !
So when the batteries go, I don't just lose the user data/ waveforms stored in the RAM, I also lose the brains of the module, it bricks it !

Wow... I am truly amazed and shocked.... 

Vince,

I don't think there is any firmware in the module, the module is just the parallel and serial ports and the extra storage. The storage is needed for the extra functionality which is already built into the firmware of the scope.

I second that, MCU is not needed and is actually more difficult to implement.

What is U4?
My prediction is EEPROM.
If so then you can read it on the fly with PLCC clip, not nice really since you obviously need also a centronics stump.
And of course the clip is a real bargain for a one timer thing.

Well could be but not many pins on that chip, and very few traces going to it. So would have to  be serial memory that the scope would therfore need to spend time at boot up to "unpack" into RAM for fast parallel access. A bit awkward and convoluted... but still technically possible. So, just to make sure, I removed that sticker and had a look.... nope, not a memory. A humble 16V8 PAL chip for glue logic, hence why it's right by the expansion connector and so few lines are going to it. Just doing some address decoding.

So... there is no F/W in the module, so we don't give a crap about losing the contents of the NVRAM chips once they go bad, it's just user data/ stored waveforms, not code nor cal data or anything sensitive...

[med6753]

OK, but what makes the Type 422 so special?

No...you can't have mine. 

No ICs. A late 453 will suffice too 

The 454 has none too and you get 150MHz B/W in the deal as opposed to only 50MHz B/W in the 453.

Is 454A completely without nuvistors?

I don't know and TekWiki doesn't mention it.

I read that some of them can be replaced with something newer pretty easily.
Can that be taken as a norm?

I see Vince (Isn't he nice?  ) answered your question concerning nuvistors in a Type 454A. Apparently there are none.

It isn't all that difficult to change a circuit from nuvistors to FET's. After all, FET's act basically like a vacuum tube triode. Lower voltages and component adjustments.

Here's an early S/N Type 1A1 Plug-in with nuvistors in the first vertical pre-amp.



Here's a later S/N Type 1A1 Plug-in with FET's in the first vertical pre-amp.

[bd139]

One thing to point out though. The Nuvistors are considerably more robust than the FETs are 

Oh and more fun

[med6753]

One thing to point out though. The Nuvistors are considerably more robust than the FETs are 

Oh and more fun

Absolutely. 

[tggzzz]

Heads up for Brits living in or close to Highbridge, Somerset, you might want to jump on these quickly, I would personally would but way too far away for me.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/2-sonartron-digital-valve-voltmeters-and-3-avometers/1434901970

I have already been in contact

Did you get them or what?

The seller is busy tomorrow (oops today).

So does that mean that you haven't sealed the deal yet then  Well worth taking a risk on IMO, quick before someone else beats you to it.

Just arranged to pick them up tomorrow. On Friday I may be able to a post a picture that is as offensive as that 80yo female.

OK, I picked up the 5 meters. Here's the picture of the first...



I'll correct the "mad eye Moody" effect before flogging it for a fortune on fleabay.

[Peter_O]

Well same for Airbus or any big industrial project, it's just how the industry works these days... subcontract, subcontract, have a bunch of slaves do the work for you and lower prices... and when the economy goes down you don't have to fire any of your own troops, you just say to the subcontractors "Sorry no work for you anymore, you can fire all your employees, not my problem ! "
....so I was fired a year ago that way.. suck to be a subcontractor, you don't get neither the money nor the job security, it's lose-lose !

No advantage wen employed by a >100.000 employee corporation and being well above 50.
Mine decided to dump all EMEA onshore project-manager and shift the jobs to nearshore and offshore.
They played every dirty trick. A UK MP spoke of the 'worst excesses of capitalism'.

Only advantage: You can negotiate some garden leave and a severance package.   

[mnementh]

HP SCOPE

Some more... now the I/O Module at the back !  Cracked it open. There are 5 tantalum caps in there... ... and two NVRAM chips, because one is not enough. There is the usual one made by Dallas, P/N  DS1244Y-120 The other one is made by ST, P/N  M48Z128Y-120PM1

I guess I could download their datasheet, see which pin if any, gives access to the internal battyery voltage, so I can measure it and get a feel for just how scared I should be... OK that's it for to "day".. soon 2AM, going to bed. 

More HP fun tomorrow of course, that goes without saying !!!  Don't like it ? Too bad, it's TE, it's on topic, so you can't complain, sorry ! 

   

I had to pop the cover off my 54657A to iron out this hickey:    in the shell, so I took a couple pix of the inside for comparison and future reference.

Yup... DALLAS DS1244Y-120 & DS1245Y-120; I read the date as 2002, so maybe a few more years if I'm really lucky.

Ghaaaah. ~$90 just for the two NVRAM, then I need to get a working programmer. *sigh* I also need to do the same thing with the NVRAM in my 3478A... 

Nope. If I'm gonna spend that money, it'll be on the 54659A I actually want on my scope, not this module that I bought just cuz it was cheap and right there.

I'm just gonna button this one up and use it til it loses its mind.   

mnem
*tinker-tinker... putter-putter...*

[bd139]

Heads up for Brits living in or close to Highbridge, Somerset, you might want to jump on these quickly, I would personally would but way too far away for me.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/2-sonartron-digital-valve-voltmeters-and-3-avometers/1434901970

I have already been in contact

Did you get them or what?

The seller is busy tomorrow (oops today).

So does that mean that you haven't sealed the deal yet then  Well worth taking a risk on IMO, quick before someone else beats you to it.

Just arranged to pick them up tomorrow. On Friday I may be able to a post a picture that is as offensive as that 80yo female.

OK, I picked up the 5 meters. Here's the picture of the first...



I'll correct the "mad eye Moody" effect before flogging it for a fortune on fleabay.