Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Robert763]

A bit of TE now.

Had this old PSU I was given. It's very heavcey and ugly and looked like a home made project... so I stored it away and didn't think too much of it.

But I dug it out today and spent some time on it. After brushing off all the dust inside, and looking more closely.. it didn't look home made any more.
There is even a sticker on it... says it's made by ADTECH Power " PSU, model TAPS4-2, in the US of A.

Then as I was cleaning it, I noticed a piece of paper trapped between the chassis and the underside of the transformer... pulled it out and oh.... what do you know, a nice double sided A4 size original spec sheet for the thing ! Oh I just love old tech paper, I was over the moon. 

Looking at that sheet, I now understand why it looks home made... it's not. But, it's a "budget" PSU, so comes bare bone... you just get a giant piece of folded thick sheet metal that serves both as a sturdy chasis, and a big heat sink. Then they put the circuit board ni place, bolt down the big filter caps... and that's about it. Then it's up to you to fit binding posts, and wire them up to the circuit board etc.
So in this case 4 rubber feet wre added, as well binding posts with markings using a sharpie... blac sharpy on a black chassis, how clever  . That's all for a "front panel"... Then a metal bracket was added to support the power cable, power switch and fuse holder and earth connection. Also a piece of plexiglas was added to cover the side of the chassis where all the TO3 pass transistors are mounted.

So that gives it an uglty loook... but if you go past that anc just concentrate on the PSU itself, before it was "modded", then it's actually quite nice. Nice looking PCBs, nice rigid chassis. 3 output : 5V 12amps, and twin 12-15V 3 Amps. The "front panel" make sit look like it's a symmetrical / common ground  +/- 12V supply but looking at the terminals on the board, and reading the datasheet... the 3 supplies are floating. There is no common ground. So I could potentially put the two 12V supplies sin series, say, so that's cool.

Wghat's cool as well, are the voltage regulator chips... we wxere just discussing these 723 chips from Tesla in that TO round metal can... AVG saying they are nice sealed units. Well... this PSU uses a 723 for each of the 3 outputs, and they are the TO can type.. aren't they beautiful, with gold plated legs as well ! 

Also... as AVG said, they are cool because sealed... and I guess it was cool even back in the day, because lookj at the spec sheet / marketing at the top of the first page... look what they proudly state : " ALL IC's and transistor HERMETICALLY SEALED, NO PLASTIC !!! "   

Oh I just love it. I am now loving this PSU more and mode.

It's got to be useful in the lab.... 5V 12A and twiun floating 12V 3A outputs, adjustable up to 15V as well. So beefy 5V for your TTL and CP%U stuff, and twin 12/15V supllies for your analogy AOP fun.

Yes... I like this PSU a lot. I think I will strip it from all the ugly crap that was bolted to it, to "clean it up", then make a nice cabinet for it, so that the guts aren't exposed anymore/at risk, and so I can make a nice front panel for it, and integrate it more easily in the lab with the rest of the TE.

Yeah.... I think I have just added myself yet another project to the list ! 

Hi Vince,
That is not a "budget" power supply. It is a high performance professional "open Frame" PSU. It's intended to be built into a piece of equipment. They are a standardised basic design with interchangable models made by many manufacturers. Specification and quality is high They will run rated output 24/7 for years (some need a bit of fan cooling or heatsinking for full output). They are still made bu not not so common as SMPSs have become popular. Still used for low noise and legacy applications. A new replacement for yours will cost £200-300 depending how many you buy.
https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Bel-Power-Solutions/HDCC-150W-AG?qs=gCHJnwMCk7Ta3xAQtQTxFQ%3D%3D

They make great triple output bench power supplies but MUST be in a proper case for safety. Bringing the voltage trimmers out to pots on the panel will give some flexibility.

THanks. Wow so they ar still sold today, incredible... some standards do last then...

So my idea was the gonnd one then, put it in a cabinet and make a proper fornt panel for it. Will do that then... will take time though, as finding a suitable enclosure for such a bog and heavy piece... not gonna be simple nor cheap. Need to keep the budget under control...   I guess I would need to add a fan in the enclosure to force some airflow over the chassis/heatsink, or maybe relocate the x5 TO3 pass transistor on a proper / finned heat sinks, at the back of the enclosure, like you find in any linear power supply.

Also, I called budget because... not me, but the manufacturer itself called it that on their spec sheet in the title, if you have a look. It says "

ADTECH POWER
Microprocessor power supplies
Triple output OEM Economy general purpose power supplies


I can only guess that things went downhill over the years, and what they called "economy" PSU in 1977, 45 years later is now deemed "top quality" and expensive....

Still, as you say a nice PSU, so will definitely make a decent enclosure for it and proper front panel with access to the pots of course... but that will take money so it's way down on my priority list at the moment. Will get done... just not any time soon I think...

Forgot to mention yesterday, but the board the does the 5V supply, has TWO pots on it. One to fine adjust voltage, and is identified in the spec sheet. However the second pot is not mentioned in the spec sheet so I don't know what it does. It is user accessible just like the other pot, via a hole in the chassis/ heat sink, so I guess that means I am "allowed" to play with it... just would like to know WHAT it does !

I guess that's a fantastic excuse to pull that board out and reverse engineer it to see what's what.

You don't need a fan or heatsink for that PSU for bench use. It's only required if running full load on all outputs at maximum ambient temperature.
I recently aquired some specialist TS that I'm breaking for parts that have this type triple output supply in them so will be boxing  one up myself.

[bd139]

There’s a rush on pliers! I should start insider trading 

Shouldn't you be busy with some tinder business? 

Shelved that. Seems to be a money pit full of people who should be single and out of the gene pool. Plus it was interfering with the toy budget 

Yeah, no surprise.
Tinder is one of those things which are monetarizing the hopes of lost souls. Very ugly business imho.

I wish that was true but it’s really just monetising the ego of the common narcissist and other forms of defective personality and acting as a prostitution contact service. The hopes of lost souls leave rather rapidly after working this out 

[tggzzz]

I'm pissed off.

There are a couple of scope probes I'd like up for auction later today. Unfortunately they come in 4 4-drawer filing cabinets, and I'd have to take those too. The blasted things are just too big to fit in my car, even two at a time

[BU508A]

There’s a rush on pliers! I should start insider trading 

Shouldn't you be busy with some tinder business? 

Shelved that. Seems to be a money pit full of people who should be single and out of the gene pool. Plus it was interfering with the toy budget 

Yeah, no surprise.
Tinder is one of those things which are monetarizing the hopes of lost souls. Very ugly business imho.

I wish that was true but it’s really just monetising the ego of the common narcissist and other forms of defective personality and acting as a prostitution contact service. The hopes of lost souls leave rather rapidly after working this out 

What can I say?
I'm a hopelessly romantic and naive human being. 

[TERRA Operative]

I met my wife on Tinder.

However, Tinder in Japan was/is a far cry from what I see is the case in USA and AU etc...

[Vince]

Has the dust settled on that tool discussion ? Am I allowed to post about TE now, or will anything I say get completely unnoticed / wasted ?

That would be sad because we have great news today in the TE dept....

I had enough a few weeks ago of being called a fool for not getting that 50 Euro ugly yellowed broken old Agilent MSO scope, 54xxxx one thing or another.

No worries, 2 weeks later another one popped up, Agilent again, for a mere 4,000 Euros, yes that's three zeros, and yes still an ugly Agilent one. A week later he lowered the price to only 3,500 Euros, still a tad too much to my taste and wallet ! 

But this week I saw this ad :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2171536160.htm

Title just says " various oscilloscopes" and the full description/body of the ad just says :  " A couple Tek and one HP, in working order ".

Price : " make me an offer ".

Looking at the pic of the HP one, very blurry, could barely make up the model number, looks like " 54645D "... I could see the "Megazoom" badge at the top, and in the bottom right corner the connector for the logic stuff. OK so that must be the one then... and it's a nice good looking HP that I love so much, not the ugly Agilent that I hate so much... and it's not yellowed, and there is life on the CRT, at the least. No broken anything either unlike the Agilent ones a few weeks prior. ALSO it's a 100MHz version whereas the Agilent ones were both 60MHz versions. So I had to act real quick as always, no time to ask questions or pictures or it's game over for you, someone else would have bought it without asking any questions. Always like that. I learned that lesson.

So not knowing anything more about it than what I just exposed, I took a gamble and offered the guy 100 Euros for the HP, thinking 50 Euros would be way too low and I would get outbid. So I thought 3 figure might catch his interest and give me a chance of at least being considered... while 100 Euros is still being reasonable for such a wonderful scope that you have all been selling to me so well, I admit.  I didn't even know if the guy was actually willing to sell the HP scope separately of if he wanted to sell the lot, wasn't clear. I was also very unsure whether he would accept to ship, because his ad says no shipping... and 99% of the time when an ad DOES say shipping is available... the seller then says NO it's not ! So an ad that says no shipping up front... yes, I was not holding my breath to say the least !

But... guy accepted my offer and was OK to ship, he sent the scope yesterday, now waiting for delivery in a Frog lab near you !!! 

So now I need to find a bunch of knobs to give it its pretty face back. No, no 3DP for me, won't cut it... either OEM knobs or nothing. Can these be found or are they unobtainium ? Scope can still be operated without them I guess, so not too worried. It's just for cosmetics.  If you have some HP knobs lying around, a donour HP TE of some kind with the same knobs, I don't know...

So let's see if it will actually be able to display a signal, what errors there are in the self test, what options it might have or not have, RS232, printer output, GPIB, whatever these scopes might have... I have absolutely no idea. I know zero about these scopes, don't know if there is a service manual for them, what are the common problems and hopefully solutions... I know zero.
So the learning curve will be steep...if it needs fixing.

[McBryce]

So now I need to find a bunch of knobs to give it it's pretty face back. NO, no 3DP for me, won't cut it... either OEM knobs or nothing. Can these be found or are they unobtainium ?

They are probably available in a separate auction from the same seller  Why do people do this!!!

McBryce.

[Vince]

He has only two other items for sale and no knobs.... but instead an old boat anchor, but an actual one !!! 

https://www.leboncoin.fr/profil/2c4e19c4-8981-49ac-8841-504bf4d5d661/offres

At first I thought that all these missing knobs meant that the scope was defective, beyond repair and was used as a donour to fix another one.
So we shall see. However if that were the case then why would he steal 9 knobs but leave two in place ? Sounds silly. You might as well take them all...
So there must be another explanation for that...

So I think there is a still a slight chance that this scope is not a turd, a bunch of defective parts loosely taped together to make it look like a complete scope... We will soon find out...

[Specmaster]

Well I can now safely predict what the next big world shortage is going to be, I mean we currently have, oil, gas, wheat, food, fish, chips and next after the great tool run..STEEL 

[xrunner]

He has only two other items for sale and no knobs.... but instead an old boat anchor, but an actual one !!! 

https://www.leboncoin.fr/profil/2c4e19c4-8981-49ac-8841-504bf4d5d661/offres

At first I thought that all these missing knobs meant that the scope was defective, beyond repair and was used as a donour to fix another one.
So we shall see. However if that were the case then why would he steal 9 knobs but leave two in place ? Sounds silly. You might as well take them all...
So there must be another explanation for that...

So I think there is a still a slight chance that this scope is not a turd, a bunch of defective parts loosely taped together to make it look like a complete scope... We will soon find out...

The shaft isn't an uncommon design you can substitute a set of knobs you can buy elsewhere for a while can't you. 

Or you can ... oh I forgot you don't want to ... I almost said a dirty word. 

[bd139]

Has the dust settled on that tool discussion ? Am I allowed to post about TE now, or will anything I say get completely unnoticed / wasted ?

That would be sad because we have great news today in the TE dept....

I had enough a few weeks ago of being called a fool for not getting that 50 Euro ugly yellowed broken old Agilent MSO scope, 54xxxx one thing or another.

No worries, 2 weeks later another one popped up, Agilent again, for a mere 4,000 Euros, yes that's three zeros, and yes still an ugly Agilent one. A week later he lowered the price to only 3,500 Euros, still a tad too much to my taste and wallet ! 

But this week I saw this ad :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2171536160.htm

Title just says " various oscilloscopes" and the full description/body of the ad just says :  " A couple Tek and one HP, in working order ".

Price : " make me an offer ".

Looking at the pic of the HP one, very blurry, could barely make up the model number, looks like " 54645D "... I could see the "Megazoom" badge at the top, and in the bottom right corner the connector for the logic stuff. OK so that must be the one then... and it's a nice good looking HP that I love so much, not the ugly Agilent that I hate so much... and it's not yellowed, and there is life on the CRT, at the least. No broken anything either unlike the Agilent ones a few weeks prior. ALSO it's a 100MHz version whereas the Agilent ones were both 60MHz versions. So I had to act real quick as always, no time to ask questions or pictures or it's game over for you, someone else would have bought it without asking any questions. Always like that. I learned that lesson.

So not knowing anything more about it than what I just exposed, I took a gamble and offered the guy 100 Euros for the HP, thinking 50 Euros would be way too low and I would get outbid. So I thought 3 figure might catch his interest and give me a chance of at least being considered... while 100 Euros is still being reasonable for such a wonderful scope that you have all been selling to me so well, I admit.  I didn't even know if the guy was actually willing to sell the HP scope separately of if he wanted to sell the lot, wasn't clear. I was also very unsure whether he would accept to ship, because his ad says no shipping... and 99% of the time when an ad DOES say shipping is available... the seller then says NO it's not ! So an ad that says no shipping up front... yes, I was not holding my breath to say the least !

But... guy accepted my offer and was OK to ship, he sent the scope yesterday, now waiting for delivery in a Frog lab near you !!! 

So now I need to find a bunch of knobs to give it its pretty face back. No, no 3DP for me, won't cut it... either OEM knobs or nothing. Can these be found or are they unobtainium ? Scope can still be operated without them I guess, so not too worried. It's just for cosmetics.  If you have some HP knobs lying around, a donour HP TE of some kind with the same knobs, I don't know...

So let's see if it will actually be able to display a signal, what errors there are in the self test, what options it might have or not have, RS232, printer output, GPIB, whatever these scopes might have... I have absolutely no idea. I know zero about these scopes, don't know if there is a service manual for them, what are the common problems and hopefully solutions... I know zero.
So the learning curve will be steep...if it needs fixing.

Excellent scopes. Probably fine. The only real problem with them is the front panel fragility and the input BNC design. If it hasn’t been dropped it’s probably ok. Also the CRT module occasionally boinks out with a bad electrolytic capacitors.

I argued with a dropped one from the same series a while back here. That one was unfortunately a write off https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-54602b-oscilloscope-problems-repair/

[TERRA Operative]

Dave poked a similar-ish unit a while back, found broken traces on the front panel PCB from (probably) a good bump.

[Vince]

But this week I saw this ad :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2171536160.htm

Title just says " various oscilloscopes" and the full description/body of the ad just says :  " A couple Tek and one HP, in working order ".

Price : " make me an offer ".

Excellent scopes. Probably fine. The only real problem with them is the front panel fragility and the input BNC design. If it hasn’t been dropped it’s probably ok. Also the CRT module occasionally boinks out with a bad electrolytic capacitors.

I argued with a dropped one from the same series a while back here. That one was unfortunately a write off https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-54602b-oscilloscope-problems-repair/

Thanks for the link, much useful info in there "thanks" to the numerous problems your scope had ! 
.. but you persevered... only not to be rewarded for all your efforts 

Too bad you sold all of its knobs, could have made me happy.... 4+ years later ! 

Well at least I know what kind of disaster I am potentially in for... so will look for that right away. Cracks, physical damage, physical damage.. and physical damage. Crossing fingers....
Lack of schematics let alone proper service manual, and not so friendly HPAK group it looks like, doesn't help either.
So hopefully there is not too much wrong with it and I can fix it despite the less than ideal support for these scopes.

I guess I should be receiving it early next week or something.

[m k]

BD, you also will need bent medium/small length/weight long nose for awkward angled stuff....probably my most used set.

For that I have Bahco 2427-100 from last millennia.
Here straight ones are a clear secondary.

[m k]

I heard someone mention Knipex. Can someone recommend a suitably decent pair of their needle nose pliers for electronics work? I actually have no pliers at the moment at all as I knackered the Piergiacomi ones. Need to have grips on and cutters. Utterly fed up of shit ones.

I'd like to put a word in for Pastorino. I've had a couple pairs over the years and they simply seem like an extension of my mind, and grip where I want. Their handles are clad with a sturdy non-slip foam that keeps them very secure in the hand. I like that.

For cutters, nothing of course beats Lindström. Although the Knipex Superknips comes close.

Thanks will have a look.

I am not looking at Lindstrom. They are really nice but out of budget unfortunately. I have owned a pair before

These are the cutters and pliers I used most often. I also have other throwaway cutters and pliers.

The two blue handled ones are 47 years old. I chose the pliers as a compromise between brute force and fine work pliers. They still work admirably within their obvious ranges.

The two cream handled ones are 42 year old Lindstrom tools. Again, they continue to work well. The white handled Lindstrom cutters, also full-flush were "cheap" on fleabay, and were bought as a backup if the white cream one failed.

You may see a pattern there.

It helps that, as with any decent knife, I don't allow anyone else to use them

I've tried to find old style Lindström micro for 1,2 mm copper.
Last one is already 1 and 2/3 handles.

[bd139]

But this week I saw this ad :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/bricolage/2171536160.htm

Title just says " various oscilloscopes" and the full description/body of the ad just says :  " A couple Tek and one HP, in working order ".

Price : " make me an offer ".

Excellent scopes. Probably fine. The only real problem with them is the front panel fragility and the input BNC design. If it hasn’t been dropped it’s probably ok. Also the CRT module occasionally boinks out with a bad electrolytic capacitors.

I argued with a dropped one from the same series a while back here. That one was unfortunately a write off https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-54602b-oscilloscope-problems-repair/

Thanks for the link, much useful info in there "thanks" to the numerous problems your scope had ! 
.. but you persevered... only not to be rewarded for all your efforts 

Too bad you sold all of its knobs, could have made me happy.... 4+ years later ! 

Well at least I know what kind of disaster I am potentially in for... so will look for that right away. Cracks, physical damage, physical damage.. and physical damage. Crossing fingers....
Lack of schematics let alone proper service manual, and not so friendly HPAK group it looks like, doesn't help either.
So hopefully there is not too much wrong with it and I can fix it despite the less than ideal support for these scopes.

I guess I should be receiving it early next week or something.

Actually you're pretty good with the 54645 scope on service information. There are two documents of interest:

Firstly the user and service manual (module level) is here:

https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/HP%2054645A,%2054645D%20User%20&%20Service.pdf

Now here's the good one, the CLIP (component level information package) is here. All 300Mb of it 

https://archive.org/details/HP54645NCLIPImgs

As mentioned in the thread I bounced the parts for reasonable money on their own. Yours is profitable on that front even if it's knackered. In the end I sold the good plastics, the knobs, motherboard (£25 even though it was broken), display assemly and power supply separately and made 2.5x what I paid for it 

If it works the only maintenance risk is the Dallas RAM module and the RIFAs in the power supply board really. They are top notch bits of engineering.

[m k]

Just in case Burr-Brown 2D216 was missed.
Other visible one is 2D221.
Are those old modules for any more general use?

The whole set is HP6942A Multiprogrammer internals.
Current price is around 100€ chipped and great grandad from mother's side is leading.
https://www.tradera.com/en/item/340198/543690669/12st-hp-accessories-kort-

Location is a bit north from Måns so better relay from there than here.
One direct connection to Germany is possibly possible by disturbing 2N3055.
Time is running out though.

[Saskia]

spent a good week tracing down an issue with systemd and RHEL.
How I HATE this blockhead who did the systemd crap. Can we boil him a bit ? or crucify ? or express our gratitude in some other preferable painfull definitely lethal way ?

Anyway. Node.js is now accepting my ca.

One for BD:

Every girl is bi. You just have to figure out if it's polar or sexual.

Miss Ogyn

[BU508A]

spent a good week tracing down an issue with systemd and RHEL.
How I HATE this blockhead who did the systemd crap. Can we boil him a bit ? or crucify ? or express our gratitude in some other preferable painfull definitely lethal way ?

Anyway. Node.js is now accepting my ca.

One for BD:

Every girl is bi. You just have to figure out if it's polar or sexual.

Miss Ogyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

      

[Saskia]

oh, that is the asshole that did not fix the issue in RHEL for 4 years ? Remarkable. Why does he still have a job ?

[bd139]

spent a good week tracing down an issue with systemd and RHEL.
How I HATE this blockhead who did the systemd crap. Can we boil him a bit ? or crucify ? or express our gratitude in some other preferable painfull definitely lethal way ?

Anyway. Node.js is now accepting my ca.

Oh Poettering. Please stick a traffic cone up his arse, funnel in some tannerite then hit him with sticks until he explodes.

Congratulations.

One for BD:

Every girl is bi. You just have to figure out if it's polar or sexual.

Miss Ogyn

Might actually be right there

[McBryce]

I heard someone mention Knipex. Can someone recommend a suitably decent pair of their needle nose pliers for electronics work? I actually have no pliers at the moment at all as I knackered the Piergiacomi ones. Need to have grips on and cutters. Utterly fed up of shit ones.

I'd like to put a word in for Pastorino. I've had a couple pairs over the years and they simply seem like an extension of my mind, and grip where I want. Their handles are clad with a sturdy non-slip foam that keeps them very secure in the hand. I like that.

For cutters, nothing of course beats Lindström. Although the Knipex Superknips comes close.

Thanks will have a look.

I am not looking at Lindstrom. They are really nice but out of budget unfortunately. I have owned a pair before

These are the cutters and pliers I used most often. I also have other throwaway cutters and pliers.

The two blue handled ones are 47 years old. I chose the pliers as a compromise between brute force and fine work pliers. They still work admirably within their obvious ranges.

The two cream handled ones are 42 year old Lindstrom tools. Again, they continue to work well. The white handled Lindstrom cutters, also full-flush were "cheap" on fleabay, and were bought as a backup if the white cream one failed.

You may see a pattern there.

It helps that, as with any decent knife, I don't allow anyone else to use them

Just cos I haven't posted a picture in a while...

The Blue one on the left is used for nibbling plastic off 3D prints... Came free with some printer peripheral I ordered and nibbling plastic is about all it would be good for.
The Big red one is from CK Tools (German), is approx 35 years old and you could still almost cut bolts with it.
The others are all knipex... no further comment required.

McBryce.

[Zucca]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

      

Did not know that he won it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwnie_Awards

[tggzzz]

I'm pissed off.

There are a couple of scope probes I'd like up for auction later today. Unfortunately they come in 4 4-drawer filing cabinets, and I'd have to take those too. The blasted things are just too big to fit in my car, even two at a time

Well, somebody got a bargain.

It wasn't as if I need another couple of 1.5GHz probes and a 6GHz probe, but I'd have bid 3* higher if I didn't have to think about how to dispose of those bloody filing cabinets.

[Vince]

Actually you're pretty good with the 54645 scope on service information. There are two documents of interest:

Firstly the user and service manual (module level) is here:

https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/HP%2054645A,%2054645D%20User%20&%20Service.pdf

Now here's the good one, the CLIP (component level information package) is here. All 300Mb of it 

https://archive.org/details/HP54645NCLIPImgs

As mentioned in the thread I bounced the parts for reasonable money on their own. Yours is profitable on that front even if it's knackered. In the end I sold the good plastics, the knobs, motherboard (£25 even though it was broken), display assemly and power supply separately and made 2.5x what I paid for it 

If it works the only maintenance risk is the Dallas RAM module and the RIFAs in the power supply board really. They are top notch bits of engineering.

Thanks for links, now on my hard drive 

The CLIP is interesting....  contains all the schematics as.... photographs !! No OEM PDF not even a scan, but actually photographs of the paper schematics. Each sheet is split into several photos.. 109 of them. So first thing to do if I need them would be to reconstitute that puzzle so as to have one single large pic for each schematic sheet. But at least the schematics are there, and in good quality, perfectly usable, so that's the most important...

There are also a couple strange small files that I wonder what they do.. an XML file and an 'squlite' file. Can't open either it appears...
Well the XML file I just opened with a text editor.. not much in it, just a few line of "meta data".

User manual has a mechanal parts list which gives me the HP Part number for the knobs, so I can use that as a search term to go hunting for them on the interweb I suppose.