Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

...Has anyone seen these before and can tell me how to release the leads so that I can extract the decks so that can get access to the various pulleys with some cotton buds soaked in Isopropyl Alcohol to clean up the residue of the old belts in preperation for the new belts to be fitted?

You press downward towards the PCB on the center part of the housing (the part with the holes for the ribbon cable) and hold it, then pull up gently while wiggling the ribbon; curved needle-nose pliers or forceps on either side of the ribbon work a treat for this.

mnem
 

[Vince]

Vince, in summary. Discovered a lot of neat stuff but haven't fixed anything yet.   

Have a got that right? 

Just busting your balls. 

Exactly ! Because as always in this hobby, 99% of the fun is in the journey not in the destination !

EDIT : well that's not exact, I did fix two things  : faulty power supply, and defective polarity indicator. 

[Specmaster]

...Has anyone seen these before and can tell me how to release the leads so that I can extract the decks so that can get access to the various pulleys with some cotton buds soaked in Isopropyl Alcohol to clean up the residue of the old belts in preperation for the new belts to be fitted?

You press downward towards the PCB on the center part of the housing (the part with the holes for the ribbon cable) and hold it, then pull up gently while wiggling the ribbon; curved needle-nose pliers or forceps on either side of the ribbon work a treat for this.

mnem
 

Excellent, I had tried doing that before but nothing seemed to be happening, but armed with your reassurance, I tried again and this time it worked 

The last time I came across this kind of ribbon cable it was in a Hameg scope and you could clearly see that was you got the cable removed, but these connectors look completely different to the Hameg.
Now its time to go and watch a Spiderman film with the grown up kids, couch potato time

[med6753]

Vince, in summary. Discovered a lot of neat stuff but haven't fixed anything yet.   

Have a got that right? 

Just busting your balls. 

Exactly ! Because as always in this hobby, 99% of the fun is in the journey not in the destination !

EDIT : well that's not exact, I did fix two things  : faulty power supply, and defective polarity indicator. 

The journey is never easy. 

[TaylorD93]

Vince, in summary. Discovered a lot of neat stuff but haven't fixed anything yet.   

Have a got that right? 

Just busting your balls. 

Exactly ! Because as always in this hobby, 99% of the fun is in the journey not in the destination !

EDIT : well that's not exact, I did fix two things  : faulty power supply, and defective polarity indicator. 

The journey is never easy. 

Id agree, except my TTI EX354D. Bought as a project, fixed it, used daily for 2 months, then bang, as in a big bang. Flashed over inside with a big nasty burn mark. Parked it since, no interest in fixing it again.

[mnementh]

...Has anyone seen these before and can tell me how to release the leads so that I can extract the decks so that can get access to the various pulleys with some cotton buds soaked in Isopropyl Alcohol to clean up the residue of the old belts in preperation for the new belts to be fitted?

You press downward towards the PCB on the center part of the housing (the part with the holes for the ribbon cable) and hold it, then pull up gently while wiggling the ribbon; curved needle-nose pliers or forceps on either side of the ribbon work a treat for this.

mnem
 

Excellent, I had tried doing that before but nothing seemed to be happening, but armed with your reassurance, I tried again and this time it worked 

The last time I came across this kind of ribbon cable it was in a Hameg scope and you could clearly see that was you got the cable removed, but these connectors look completely different to the Hameg.
Now its time to go and watch a Spiderman film with the grown up kids, couch potato time

First one I encountered, after wiggling and fighting and finally breaking a couple of the conductors, I desoldered the damn thing. From the bottom, you can see the release mechanism and it's obvious how it works.

Of course, I felt a complete idiot until some time after I finished the repair. 

mnem
 

[Neomys Sapiens]

Honest comment from the seller: "They all turned on last week but one didn't turn on this week. Have been stored under a tarpaulin". Not the only things, from the look of it.
.
.

As someone from the northeastern US, it still seems weird to me to see things stored outside at Apex in California, but they're basically in the desert and I've purchased several things from the outside yard that have been in pretty good nick once the caked on dust had been removed


but storing electronic instrumentation under a tarp in a farm field in the UK?!?!?       

WTF is the thought process there?       

-Pat

Maybe that the free-running pigs keep most pests and thieves away?

[vk6zgo]

it was perfectly safe to drive as fast as I did, but I had a brain fart and thought that I was already out of town when actually I was not. And since this is known to the municipal waylaying people they placed their photoelectric gizmo there and took a photo of me at out of municipality speeds.
I did not get any points on my license though so at least that's that.

Having a speed trap warner in this country will get you prosecuted.
Not just fined, but prosecuted.

Back in the day, in Western Australia, traffic duties, outside the Perth Metropolitan area were not police responsibilities, but were handled by the local authorities, who employed "Traffic Inspectors"----the cops hated them!
Some people,who found themselves being pulled up & fined, by one of these guys, just at the City boundary, got suspicious, & it turned out the Inspector had moved the boundary sign. That worthy was prosecuted, & the council concerned had to refund the fines.

[Zucca]

There's a referencing problem in your formula, and dB being unspecified is relative!. I'm somewhat curious as to what your references are.  Being somewhat entrenched in RF and opticks I tend to use dBm and regard 0dBm as a nice generally useful level, where there would, for Needed values exist a state of "This would improve things I do daily". I wanted my DM42 like 20dBm, which is a lot. I needed it about -5dBm which is strong, but not necessary at all.

10Log * ( 20/-5 ) = -4dB

N values being negative mess your formula up.

Proposed W values, related to 0dBm:

30	I need a complete set, desperately
20	Wantwantwant!
10	This is an interesting instrument...
0	Would look good on the bench
-10	If it had Nixies, I'd buy it
-20	I could do with a parts unit
-30	I have like 5 already, in better condition

This needs standards and committee work. Your move.

We need to be more specific with the N and W definitions and since there are no device which can directly measure them, we need to use an indirect method as already somehow proposed.

The Cambridge dictionary can help us.

N

If you say that someone or something needs something else, you mean that they should have it, or would get an advantage from having it

Here is crucial the concept of "advantage". In other words:



where [n] is the number of the advantages and [Ad] is a single advantage as a consequence of the item purchase.
A disadvantage/disservice is of course [Ad]<0.
[Ad] in magnitude is generally related with economic or life improvement variables.

W

to wish for a particular thing or plan of action

Unfortunately this variable is related to the human desire so it is difficult to quantify.
While thinking about the item in discussion our soul can react with positive and/or negative thoughts.
Let's define:



where [n] is the number of the thoughts, and [Th] quantifies how big the particular thought is.
Negative thoughts are of course [Th]<0.
[Th] increase in magnitude in direct proportion with the amount of time spent in that particular thought.

After some reflections, I am reluctant to put a table with real life situation associated with numbers.
Each one of us is unique and irrepetible, and it would be a never ending discussion.
I am not sold yet, I stand to be corrected.

WNR
rev 0.2

Now that we have defined a better base for our discussion, we can dig more in the WNR definition.

Re(WNR) > 0 means you want more than you need something
Re(WNR) < 0 means you need more than you want something

where Re() is the real part of the complex number WNR.

It could be tempting to define the WNR with a simple linear equation like this one



but it is misleading and does not describe well reality, let me explain.

W and N can be negative or positive. It makes perfect sense, simply because you can have the opposite of both:

1) W> 0 want
2) W< 0 don't want
3) N > 0 need
4) N < 0 don't need.

This equation:



is a much better description of reality because if



the situation is real, so WNR is a real number

If WNR has an imaginary part so it not a real number, is not a common real situation.
It is indeed somehow not common to want something you don't need, or to need something you don't want.
We can even call it a "complicated situation" as EXACTELY the resulting WNR, which is a complex number (hint: log x when x<0 is a complex number).

That's why we need to take only the real part in complicated situation and disregard the imaginary component, if we want to know is N if bigger and W or the opposite.

The "nature" of the resulting WNR reflects the nature of the situation: real/real or complicated/complex.
On top of that, the log (dB unit) serves as "compressor" or "amplifier" (WNR<0) if the W and N quantities are order of magnitude apart, as often the case.

There is still the problem of units W in thoughts and N in advantages so the ratio of the two is not a pure number and a no go for the log.
If then we could suppose that N are again the thoughts regarding the advantages, then the universe is saved.

The elegance of the WNR definition is remarkable in my eyes.

[Neomys Sapiens]

My guess: 2 actual HAMs, the rest of the occupied tables operated by various different entities flogging the same exact household and makeup wares from the nearest Freight-reclamation liquidator.

And one crusty old bastard selling crusty-ass and broken hand-tools for more than they cost new; may or may not be the same person as one of the two actual HAMs.

mnem
 

Don't forget the crusty ham guy with the soggy cardboard box full of rusted PL-259 connectors and uselessly short pieces of old coax.

McBryce.

Oh, you mean they are not ALL on Ebay, especially labeled like 'RF connectors and Adaptors' when there is not a single one of the latter in tthe lot?

[Zucca]

10Log * ( 20/-5 ) = -4dB

This is a mathematically incorrect.

It should be
WNR [dB] =  W[dBm] - N[dBm]
assuming the referece for the dBm calculation is the same for W and N.

so WNR = 20 + 5 = 25 dB in your case.

[mansaxel]

10Log * ( 20/-5 ) = -4dB

This is a mathematically incorrect.

It should be
WNR [dB] =  W[dBm] - N[dBm]
assuming the referece for the dBm calculation is the same for W and N.

so WNR = 20 + 5 = 25 dB in your case.

That's maths I understand! 

(but to me, it's more clear if it is written " WNR = 20 - -5 = 25dB ". How confused am I? )

Now, just to further prove that I have no idea what I'm talking about: I assume that what I was doing was what I might call "double dB"; i.e. I tried to convert into log ratio something that already was?  So what you did was simply to calculate the difference between W and N.

I then interpret your critique of my method as me making up a W scale a priori (and similarly, hinting at at least 2 values for N) as ungrounded. It is. You are right. I'm approaching this as a social sciences problem, which, as we all know, is a minefield of opinion.

However, I think I can motivate the need to approach this through an observational method, sort of making the curves fit in analysis, as we're trying to move into a posteriori territory. There is (excepting the transient Shahramian-Jones effect) no single universal underlying mechanism powering W. We can easily conclude, from combining introspection and thread-reading, that there must be multiple, person-dependent powers aggregating into a value for W, when we try to determine W for a given instrument.

I think that it is slightly easier to approach N in a more strict manner, where the contents of The Repair Queue probably are the most neutral indicator of a N value:

8. The TE you have on hand is never the TE you need to fix the TE you want.

Here, I confine N to the N found in TE activities, which is a simplification, likely somewhat diminishing observed values. This is hinted at here, where I find that, what in our present terminology would amount to elevated "values of N by means not related to TEA per se", exists. Basically, having a capacitance meter is good for the cleanliness of clothes.  This of course more is related to what was historically known as "WAF" but probably should be relabeled "SAF" (for "Spouse") in a more enlightened world.

We are at the start of a fascinating journey of definition and discovery!

TE: I now own a 2465CTS. Which works. The "rubber" feet on the back that also double as mains cable spool are a bit brittle; I managed to break one off, but it's been superglued back on.  I'm now reading the manual trying to actually understand the super-fancy options available to me in it.  Pics any day.

[Ice-Tea]

No rewards for telling me which one busted...

Würth to the rescue.

Squeel-free TG action.

[Specmaster]

@mnementh

Yes, I confess that I was contemplating unsoldering the dam leads myself. At first glance I thought there was a tool that fitted in the slots at the ends and lifted the middles out, so I tried with a couple of fine screwdrivers and broke one end  There are a few other ribbon cables that are just soldered directly, but they co to other parts of the deck that I don't need to interact with. Why couldn't they just use more sensible type of connectors, they would only put a few cents onto the overall cost 

Edit:
My new improved desk magnifier from AliExpress is now in the UK, only ordered it 2 weeks ago, but expected delivery date is the 9th May, certainly hope its not going to sit a warehouse till then. I'm expecting it sometime next week based on their previous deliveries. 

[Neper]

Back in the day, in Western Australia, traffic duties, outside the Perth Metropolitan area were not police responsibilities, but were handled by the local authorities, who employed "Traffic Inspectors"

Some European cities now employ private companies for operating speed cams. In Belgium, one of them was recently caught red-handed after they had removed speed bumpers in order to improve their hit rate.

[mnementh]

...but storing electronic instrumentation under a tarp in a farm field in the UK?!?!?       

WTF is the thought process there?       

-Pat

Maybe that the free-running pigs keep most pests and thieves away?

Wouldn't stop a TEA if there were anything worth having under that tarp... 

mnem
*channels bd139 for a moment* "Won't stop a Pikey either. Whatever's under the tarp."

[m k]

@mnementh

Yes, I confess that I was contemplating unsoldering the dam leads myself. At first glance I thought there was a tool that fitted in the slots at the ends and lifted the middles out, so I tried with a couple of fine screwdrivers and broke one end  There are a few other ribbon cables that are just soldered directly, but they co to other parts of the deck that I don't need to interact with. Why couldn't they just use more sensible type of connectors, they would only put a few cents onto the overall cost 

Edit:
My new improved desk magnifier from AliExpress is now in the UK, only ordered it 2 weeks ago, but expected delivery date is the 9th May, certainly hope its not going to sit a warehouse till then. I'm expecting it sometime next week based on their previous deliveries. 

I have many kind of magnifiers and finally I'm usually using stacked normal glasses.
But I'm lucky and far sighted so market glasses will do.

For nasty connectors I'd say that those laptop keyboard connectors are among the top.
You never know how to open one.
Maybe there is a hint but I've never learned any.
Am I remembering incorrectly that mnem has said something about that.

[mnementh]

There's a referencing problem in your formula, and dB being unspecified is relative!
(SNIP)
This needs standards and committee work. Your move.

We need to be more specific with the N and W definitions...

WNR   Rev 0.2

Now that we have defined a better base for our discussion, we can dig more in the WNR definition.
(SNIP)
W and N can be negative or positive. It makes perfect sense, simply because you can have the opposite of both:

1) W> 0 want
2) W< 0 don't want
3) N > 0 need
4) N < 0 don't need.

This equation:
   ^{is a much better description of reality because if}      the situation is real, so WNR is a real number.
(SNIP)
There is still the problem of units W in thoughts and N in advantages so the ratio of the two is not a pure number and a no go for the log.
If then we could suppose that N are again the thoughts regarding the advantages, then the universe is saved.

The elegance of the WNR definition is remarkable in my eyes.

So...  WNR (WNR) = Chicken Dinner...?   

mnem

[m k]

Trying to update the software in my AWG510, and can't find the button in the menu to start the update process...

Then I notice this in the readme......

If you have the AWG500 series of Program Version:1.x and hope
for the system software upgrade,please contact your local
Tektronix representative and request assistance.

I have version 1.6B.... Shit.    

I sent off a message to Tek support, but I feel like I'll get the usual 'This product is no longer supported' stonewall from them.

I read from AWG510 & AWG520 Arbitrary Waveform Generator User Manual

"This document applies to firmware version 3.0 and above"

page 3-169

"
The system software in the AWG500-Series Waveform Generator can be updated
by using the utility menu. The System software consists of both the user program
and the operating system. The upgrades can be done independent of each other.
Refer to page 3–152 for information regarding the current system software
versions.
"

"
The Select File dialog box appears.
4. Select the file for upgrade that was copied in step 1, then press the OK (side) button.
The file confirmation dialog box appears.
5. Press the OK (side) button.
The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator checks the selected file properties. The “Illegal file format” message appears if you select an invalid file.
The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator updates the system software.
6. After the updating procedure has completed, power off, then power on the instrument. The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator starts up with updated system software.
"

Is all that for newer system?

There are also 3 parts, user program, operating system and firmware.
What is that 1.x part of yours?
I understand that it's a user program.

Above is still referring to a single file.

My guess is that you can use the same procedure you do when you restore the current version.

[mansaxel]

As promised; some pics of the newest member in the stable, a 2465CTS:

First, a simple illustration of how many things you can put on the screen...


Then, the contraption I used to put that on the screen, a RC filter after a sine generator.


And, X/Y mode: (or, as I'm going to call it next time I put scope pics in a presentation, "Danish Phase" )


I'm quite happy. Everything works. And, it's a great deal easier to drive than the 465, so in many ways it's a good upgrade.

[med6753]

As promised; some pics of the newest member in the stable, a 2465CTS:

....snip


I'm quite happy. Everything works. And, it's a great deal easier to drive than the 465, so in many ways it's a good upgrade.

Looks good!  If you need a copy of the correct options service manual (There's more than one) PM me your e-mail and I'll forward it to you.

[mnementh]

@mnementh

Yes, I confess that I was contemplating unsoldering the dam leads myself. At first glance I thought there was a tool that fitted in the slots at the ends and lifted the middles out, so I tried with a couple of fine screwdrivers and broke one end  There are a few other ribbon cables that are just soldered directly, but they co to other parts of the deck that I don't need to interact with. Why couldn't they just use more sensible type of connectors, they would only put a few cents onto the overall cost 

Edit:
My new improved desk magnifier from AliExpress is now in the UK, only ordered it 2 weeks ago, but expected delivery date is the 9th May, certainly hope its not going to sit a warehouse till then. I'm expecting it sometime next week based on their previous deliveries. 

I have many kind of magnifiers and finally I'm usually using stacked normal glasses.
But I'm lucky and far sighted so market glasses will do.

For nasty connectors I'd say that those laptop keyboard connectors are among the top.
You never know how to open one.
Maybe there is a hint but I've never learned any.
Am I remembering incorrectly that mnem has said something about that.

                            HUH...?

There's a reason I've had that magnifying visor for decades; and it's not just because it makes me look totes bitchin' at the bench...

Ribbon connectors (actually, just about any connector in a laptop/tablet/phone) are a total summitch; there's so many different ones and it seems there's a "new wonderful" every 6 months. Most of the time, I suck it up and stare at the damned thing for what seems like hours, then channel Yosemite Sam for several minutes when I still break it or almost break it...

"...spitzen-spartin'-fillibartin' frickin'-frackin' dirty ratzen-fratzin' butt-ugly son of a 3-toed copper-bottom idiot..."

Speaking as a engineer, I can see the appeal of these connectors... if you have the room for them, they use very low-resolution injection-molding and metal-stamping, so are very cheap per copy. And the big thing... the ribbon-cable they use long ago ceased to be a licensed property, so it is cheap as dirt, and finally... prep on the cable ends is near-zero cost; it's just a matter of stripping the cable, there are no mating connectors. It can be done fully-automated by a pretty simple machine direct off the roll, or even as a cottage industry with a pair of these:



When you compare all that against the intended duty of at most 5 mating cycles... The only real drawbacks are the large amount of PCB real-estate they need and the complete lack of strain-relief attached to the jacket.

Myself, I dislike them because the contact area is very small as it is at the edge of the metal stamping, and any tension applied to the cable makes the metal dig into the conductor; but this makes them self-cinching which is also desirable. But I understand that they are used for low-current power and signal connections, so that is not really a concern from a manufacturing standpoint.

mnem
 

[med6753]

Quarterly bench reference and standards check. AD584-M with labeled 9.99691V. Result on 3456A. Over the course of a few hours it may vary +/- 4 trailing digits. 6.5 digits to me and my requirements is total overkill but still want to make sure nothing has gone south.



The Siglent SDM 3055 connected to same source. It always reads a few trailing digits lower but I had it fully calibrated back in October and it meets it's spec on all ranges/functions. And even 5.5 digits is way more than I require so it is what it is and I'm comfortable with it. 

 

[mnementh]

...And, X/Y mode: (or, as I'm going to call it next time I put scope pics in a presentation, "Danish Phase" )
 


I'm quite happy. Everything works. And, it's a great deal easier to drive than the 465, so in many ways it's a good upgrade.

  "Ehhhhxcellennnnt..."   

mnem
And so my 2465 army grows...   

[TERRA Operative]

Trying to update the software in my AWG510, and can't find the button in the menu to start the update process...

Then I notice this in the readme......

If you have the AWG500 series of Program Version:1.x and hope
for the system software upgrade,please contact your local
Tektronix representative and request assistance.

I have version 1.6B.... Shit.    

I sent off a message to Tek support, but I feel like I'll get the usual 'This product is no longer supported' stonewall from them.

I read from AWG510 & AWG520 Arbitrary Waveform Generator User Manual

"This document applies to firmware version 3.0 and above"

page 3-169

"
The system software in the AWG500-Series Waveform Generator can be updated
by using the utility menu. The System software consists of both the user program
and the operating system. The upgrades can be done independent of each other.
Refer to page 3–152 for information regarding the current system software
versions.
"

"
The Select File dialog box appears.
4. Select the file for upgrade that was copied in step 1, then press the OK (side) button.
The file confirmation dialog box appears.
5. Press the OK (side) button.
The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator checks the selected file properties. The “Illegal file format” message appears if you select an invalid file.
The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator updates the system software.
6. After the updating procedure has completed, power off, then power on the instrument. The AWG500-Series Waveform Generator starts up with updated system software.
"

Is all that for newer system?

There are also 3 parts, user program, operating system and firmware.
What is that 1.x part of yours?
I understand that it's a user program.

Above is still referring to a single file.

My guess is that you can use the same procedure you do when you restore the current version.

Yeah, that's what I'm having trouble with. On Page 3-169, step 2, I don't see the 'Update System Software' option at all.
There must be some secret trick or boot disk or something that's needed to update gear with version 1.x. Once you get to V2.x, it's smooth sailing with the menu options.

Push UTILITY (front-panel) -> System (bottom) -> Update System Software... (side) -> Update Program... or Update OS... (side).