Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[cyclin_al]

I can't wait to see what kind of hell you're going to catch for calling a Swede a Norwegian. 

He's living in the 19th century (or occasionally earlier).

That is okay; I am often inspired by even earlier Norwegian times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkebeinerrennet

[Cerebus]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

[AVGresponding]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

If I'd known, you'd have got it cheaper. I was the underbidder.

[factory]

<SNIP>

I looked in the parts list but they don't list these connectors sadly ! 
.. so short of getting some from work, if you could if just find some old databook or something to identify them, that would be a big help, I could try and Google for them and maybe with some luck find some for sale. I guess I could salvage a male/female pair from the donour counter, but I would rather try to keep it complete as much/ as long as possible, in case I get the silly idea one day of restoring it.

<SNIP>

Those Hypertac connectors are VERY expensive. Very unlikey to find a cheap set.  They should have part numbers on the connector body though.

Alas no part number on them, only " FRB " stamped on them.. which does not tell me anything I didn't already know...

The health of the donour is declining fast, it worsened considerably since last night. It's now all over the shop and hopeless. It's time to call his parents and ask them if their religion if any, prevents me from using his organs to help other Ferisol counters in need. They can't all be winners....it's the great circle of life, counters die so that new counters can be born... 

So, if anyone can figure out the P/N for these connectors, in some old catalogue, please share. You will be rewarded with my immense gratitude, though I understand that it's not a valid currency to pay your rent and fill your tank at the gas station 

I've only seen part number printed on the more modern ones, the ancient Smiths version & older Hypertac had nothing on them that I remember. There was a time where we changed hundreds of the 35 way version during an overhaul.
I've got a board with several Smiths 16 way plugs, ex CNC machine tool readout according to the seller I got it from, give me time & I'll see if I have anything to fit them, you never know I might be able to help. 
If you could measure the FRB connector I can check they are the same size too.

David

[factory]

---snip---
@AVG : same friend also told me an interesting thing : he remembers that this counter was later revisited / updated : same basic counter from the outside (still with ***** tubes), but inside they replaced all the discrete transistors, hundreds of them, with TTL logic chips. So, more reliable easier to troubleshoot and fix, cheap readily available ICs....but of course less charm under the hood, no Thyratron anymore, probably replaced with power trannies I would guess, or some specialized driver IC.

Possibly the later version is the Ferisol HB230A (no plug-in though), picture of one from here; https://electropuces.pagesperso-orange.fr/frequencemetre.htm


David

[Cerebus]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

If I'd known, you'd have got it cheaper. I was the underbidder.

A fair price, so I'm not bothered. Try and buy a comparable case (and frankly you won't find anything quite so fitted for purpose) and you're upwards of £100 easily, in some cases (no pun intended) you can go a lot higher and still not hit the mark quite so well.

[tggzzz]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

I'd go Cardinal Richelieu on you, viz "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.".

[Vince]

---snip---
@AVG : same friend also told me an interesting thing : he remembers that this counter was later revisited / updated : same basic counter from the outside (still with ***** tubes), but inside they replaced all the discrete transistors, hundreds of them, with TTL logic chips. So, more reliable easier to troubleshoot and fix, cheap readily available ICs....but of course less charm under the hood, no Thyratron anymore, probably replaced with power trannies I would guess, or some specialized driver IC.

Possibly the later version is the Ferisol HB230A (no plug-in though), picture of one from here; https://electropuces.pagesperso-orange.fr/frequencemetre.htm


David

Nope this one is a more modern design obviously. The TTL one is still a " HA300 ", looks strictly identical from the outside says my friend, only the boards inside have been redesigned to replace the trannies with TTL chips, nothing more.

However... that website you just found, " electropuces ", is a good one !  Guy is super old by now I think, and lives in Nantes, next town 40 miles from me. Guy specializes in selling vintage TE.
He is well worth contacting about this FRB connector, he might be able to help ! 
Gonna drop him an e-mail ! 

[Vince]

<SNIP>

I looked in the parts list but they don't list these connectors sadly ! 
.. so short of getting some from work, if you could if just find some old databook or something to identify them, that would be a big help, I could try and Google for them and maybe with some luck find some for sale. I guess I could salvage a male/female pair from the donour counter, but I would rather try to keep it complete as much/ as long as possible, in case I get the silly idea one day of restoring it.

<SNIP>

Those Hypertac connectors are VERY expensive. Very unlikey to find a cheap set.  They should have part numbers on the connector body though.

Alas no part number on them, only " FRB " stamped on them.. which does not tell me anything I didn't already know...

The health of the donour is declining fast, it worsened considerably since last night. It's now all over the shop and hopeless. It's time to call his parents and ask them if their religion if any, prevents me from using his organs to help other Ferisol counters in need. They can't all be winners....it's the great circle of life, counters die so that new counters can be born... 

So, if anyone can figure out the P/N for these connectors, in some old catalogue, please share. You will be rewarded with my immense gratitude, though I understand that it's not a valid currency to pay your rent and fill your tank at the gas station 

I've only seen part number printed on the more modern ones, the ancient Smiths version & older Hypertac had nothing on them that I remember. There was a time where we changed hundreds of the 35 way version during an overhaul.
I've got a board with several Smiths 16 way plugs, ex CNC machine tool readout according to the seller I got it from, give me time & I'll see if I have anything to fit them, you never know I might be able to help. 
If you could measure the FRB connector I can check they are the same size too.

David

Yeah that would be great, keep me updated !
Your pics show a two row connector but otherwise looks very similar to what I need !    right angle, round pins, PCB mount, one bolt at each end, same shape same colour... must be it.

I have just buttoned up the donour and took some macro shots of the connectors then took a few measurements with the calipers so I can post a thread about that on the forum, somewhere.

I measured, on the male/plugin board connector :

- Single row, 16 pins.
- Round pins, diameter 1.5mm
- Length of the pins (max length, including the conical/rounded tip ) : about 6.5mm.
- Pitch :  about 4mm. Should be quite accurate : measured the overall length of all 16 pins, 61.3mm, remove one diameter, about 60mm, divided by 15 intervals... 4mm.

[Cerebus]

However... that website you just found, " electropuces ", is a good one !  Guy is super old by now I think, and lives in Nantes, next town 40 miles from me. Guy specializes in selling vintage TE.
He is well worth contacting about this FRB connector, he might be able to help ! 
Gonna drop me an e-mail ! 

I have to say that "electropuces" sounds, at best, unappetising. Whenever the word 'puce' has been used within my hearing it has been to describe someone who has 'turned puce', almost invariable followed by 'and vomited'.

puce | pjuːs |
adjective
of a dark red or purple-brown colour: his face was puce with rage and frustration.
noun [mass noun]
a dark red or purple-brown colour.
ORIGIN
late 18th century: from French, literally ‘flea(-colour)’, from Latin pulex, pulic-.

Now it sounds really unappetising.

[Vince]

To finish, took some piccies of the FRB power socket at the back, and the power cord, just for you, because I thought the professional and conscientious Sparky in you would approve the quality of the work 

   

As an electrician, those pictures cause me physical pain.

I know, right? That bulkhead connector is just  ...  I console myself with the hope that once Vince gets the thing mostly working, he'll actually dismantle the matching socket and install a power cord properly, at which point the ugly should be mostly hidden.

mnem
*toddles off to do something constructive*

Done with the donour, buttoned it up...  that included tidying the power cable... I feel better now... do you ? 

[Vince]

However... that website you just found, " electropuces ", is a good one !  Guy is super old by now I think, and lives in Nantes, next town 40 miles from me. Guy specializes in selling vintage TE.
He is well worth contacting about this FRB connector, he might be able to help ! 
Gonna drop me an e-mail ! 

I have to say that "electropuces" sounds, at best, unappetising. Whenever the word 'puce' has been used within my hearing it has been to describe someone who has 'turned puce', almost invariable followed by 'and vomited'.

puce | pjuːs |
adjective
of a dark red or purple-brown colour: his face was puce with rage and frustration.
noun [mass noun]
a dark red or purple-brown colour.
ORIGIN
late 18th century: from French, literally ‘flea(-colour)’, from Latin pulex, pulic-.

Now it sounds really unappetising.

Didn't know that one ! 

In French "puce" as a few different meanings, though all related in some way.

- A "puce" is a common term for an IC. Sometimes it refers to the bare die : people talk about the "puce" in their credit/master card. When they put it in the terminal at checkouts, and it fails to work, the girl will tell you "rub the puce to clean it, and try again " ! Actually I did just that this evening at the super market, card didn't work first time ! 


- Also the common name for a tiny animal that cats and dogs sometimes have in their fur and makes them scratch all day long, it's itchy...

- But for " Electro puce ", it's a play on word based on the "Marché aux puces " (" flea market " in French).  Flea markets usually you find only very old stuff.... he is specialized in vintage / old TE, so... it's like a flea market for vintage TE.... " Electro.. puce ". Sounds catchy and cool in French, I like it !!! 

[mnementh]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Of course you are... we just haven't figured out what it is this time. 

mnem
"That wasn't for whatcha did... it was for whatcher gonna do." ~grand-dad

[mnementh]

It's all checked out and ready to plug in and turn on. All I need is the courage to do it.

Maybe later. 

Bring out the DBT ! 

Fuck that noise... get the ol' suicide cord, ride 'er bareback! Here, borrow Vince's!!! 

mnem
*juicy*

[vk6zgo]

---snip---

As for the vertical alignment "problem" of the ***** tubes, had a first look at it and looks like the answer is simple : the mechanical design of the counter just does not permit to hold the boards firmly in place, never mind an accurate place...
Turns out the boards do NOT have a card edge connectors... no. They have proper board to board connectors. Connector is made of thick round pins.

Those blue connectors are very familiar, even though the make is different. We worked on lots of old BR equipment from the 70s & 80's that used those, but the connectors were made by Smiths & later Hypertac. Pretty sure we had extenders in that size, but probably long gone now, not that I could buy them if they are still there (still won't sell any redundant TE).

I looked in the parts list but they don't list these connectors sadly ! 
.. so short of getting some from work, if you could if just find some old databook or something to identify them, that would be a big help, I could try and Google for them and maybe with some luck find some for sale. I guess I could salvage a male/female pair from the donour counter, but I would rather try to keep it complete as much/ as long as possible, in case I get the silly idea one day of restoring it.

But for now, for parts it is... the more I look at it, the more I take it apart... the more it scrams " don't bother, I am done for, am too far gone... ".
Like, I looked at each and every Nixie board in detail last night..... it's a disaster.
The two fastest boards (50MHz and 10MHz) are intact and working at first glance (which is good because these two I are buggy in my good counter). The 2MHz board has two transistors replaced, but it looks clean and tidy, I don't mind. However the other 5 boards, the slow 300kHz ones.... oh my Goodness, they have all been butchered like hell. On each board, every single one of the 8 trannies has been pulled. Sometimes the original one was put back in place, sometimes a modern shiny looking transistor was put it, and sometimes an old / period tranny was used, but a different, much bigger package, hence of course a different part number. Parts list does say that all these trannies are supposed to be matched, BTW....
The solder job is what put the last nail in the coffin. It looks like a battle filed. Missing pads, lifter pads or tracks, and many trannies had missing solder joints. Sometimes the pad on the top side (it's a double sided board) was not connected to anything, so OK no big deal.. but sometimes there WAS a track going to that pad yet still now solder joint ! 
It's just... just horrifying. 

I swapped the plugin and tried the working one from my good counter... I can now get it to count but it shows now other problems... display only works in "latched/memory" mode, you can't see it counting anymore, should you want to. Also the gate opening time setting is half gone : only the lower half of the settings appear to work (then the lowest resolution settings of the counter), the upper half doesn't work at all, counter fails to count and just display s a solid all zeros.
One of the nixes also sometimes looks like it's "arcing" internally... there is a fuzzy blob of light between the '0' digit and the glass envelope..

This, and other little things... clearly the guy worked heavily on this thing, but massacred everything he touched.
It was sold for parts for a good reason it seems ! I bought it for parts to begin with, and looks like it's gonna be for parts, indeed... 


There are some good news though.

- 50MHz and 10MHz boards are intact as I said, and these are bad with a hard to diagnose fault, in my better counter. So it's good to know I can just swap these boards, at least short term, to get the counter going. Then might try to troubleshoot the later...
I would only at first try to trouble shoot the third faulty board, the slow 300kHz one, because its fault is solid, permanent, so easy to work on. Can just probe at will until I figure it out.

- Its for part status means I can allow myself to salvage connectors from tit ot make an extender card.... though as said above that would be a last resort, only if I can't identify and buy new connectors....

- Conformal coating / debugging : tried to pierce it with sharp probes... doesn't do it. My 'SMD' probes are to fragile. Then tried bigass Hirshmann insulation piercing, 4mm probes... the sharpest I had. Now these work but only if the board is laying flat on the bench and you apply so much force that it's ridiculous. Not going to be a viable option when the board I want to probe is vertical, loosely hanging in the air on an extender card.... So, I give up on probing though the coating.

HOWEVER... I noticed that the coating, which still has not hardened despite being 50+ years old, can easily be soften with gentle application of hot air for a for a few seconds only, then it can easily be scrapped off of the board with a sharp blade. So, knowing that... I though well what about a soldering iron... so I tried to wick a joint, and it worked just fine ! Just do as if there were no coating... takes only a few seconds for the coating to melt, then the iron tip gets to the solder underneath and the wick works just fine. You just need to push the melted coating residue away from the joint using the iron tip, and that's it. So... looks like I should be able to troubleshoot these boards easily then : just need to remove a tiny bit of the coating at the test points of interest, and that's all ! 

- While skimming the parts list trying to find the connectors, in vain, I spotted a 2N2222 tranny listed !! What ?? This late '60's counter (oldest page in the manual is dated October 1967), but it has a "modern" fancy SILICIUM tranny in it ?!    Thought these old counters were Germanium ! 

So, I checked the part numbers for the decade/ Nixie boards.... the 50MHz one uses a STE401 transistors, failed to find a datasheet for it. If you have it in some old paper catalogue, please share.
Then looked the 10MHz board, it uses a 2N3639. The 2MHz and 300kHz boards use a 2N3638. Looked them up, both a PNP SILICIUM not Germanium, hooray !!! 
Will make substitution much easier if need be !    Hell I just Googled them for vendors, looks like the 3638 which is the one used in 6 of the 8 boards as I said, is easily available, there are NOS out there !  3+ Euros a pops.. well I only need to change a few I guess, not 200 hundreds of them, so that's OK.
The faster 3639 is harder to find a twice the price, but there is some on Ebay it looks.

Cool..... so it looks like all the stars are aligned, I should be able to fix my boards ! 

P.S. If you find any-more of those Ferisol counters I'd be interested in one.

David

OK, noted ! 

You can also check the website as I do, two sets of eyes are better than one 

[url]https://www.leboncoin.fr/recherche?text=ferisol&shippable=1&sort=time[/url]

The link includes the search term.

"Ferisol" is specific enough of a name that 100% of the search results are relevant. There is no other "Ferisol". So you will not be spammed with irrelevant content, like one is when searching for " HP ", say ! 

If you find one there of course I will be your middle man 


I never check Ebay but if you do, maybe you will find one there, I don't know...

By 1967, Germanium transistors were pretty much "on the way out" except for really old legacy designs from the late '50s. 
2n2222's were "alive & well" back then , too!

[mnementh]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

I'll see your Vimes, and raise you a Dresden.

mnem
"Ehhh... it's Tuesday."

[Cerebus]

I've given that donor Agilent 33210A a wash and brush up, and reassembled it.



Definitely worth the £22.33 (with the ever present P&P coming in on top at £11).

[mnementh]

...That bulkhead connector is just  ...  I console myself with the hope that once Vince gets the thing mostly working, he'll actually dismantle the matching socket and install a power cord properly, at which point the ugly should be mostly hidden.

mnem
*toddles off to do something constructive*

Done with the donour, buttoned it up...  that included tidying the power cable... I feel better now... do you ?     

Hmmm... now it's merely "SPEW!!!" instead of "SPEW and a half!!!"   

mnem
"Electrons may be very, very tiny... but when they gang up on you, they always win." ~me

[Vince]

OK, so there is improvement then, good !! 
At least there is no exposed live metal any more...

[vk6zgo]

To finish, took some piccies of the FRB power socket at the back, and the power cord, just for you, because I thought the professional and conscientious Sparky in you would approve the quality of the work 

   

As an electrician, those pictures cause me physical pain.

I know, right? That bulkhead connector is just  ...  I console myself with the hope that once Vince gets the thing mostly working, he'll actually dismantle the matching socket and install a power cord properly, at which point the ugly should be mostly hidden.

mnem
*toddles off to do something constructive*

Done with the donour, buttoned it up...  that included tidying the power cable... I feel better now... do you ? 

Vince, for that power connector, have a look around for old analog TV stuff----LGT used them extensively on their TV transmitters for years>

[Vince]

Oh we have already identified the power connector, FRB too, a few days ago on here ! 

There is one on Ebay, 11 Euros :

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/313500692435?hash=item48fe18efd3:g:tBAAAOSwnt5gedAH

EDIT : I felt weak, I just bought it.... 

[cyclin_al]

However... that website you just found, " electropuces ", is a good one !  Guy is super old by now I think, and lives in Nantes, next town 40 miles from me. Guy specializes in selling vintage TE.
He is well worth contacting about this FRB connector, he might be able to help ! 
Gonna drop me an e-mail ! 

I have to say that "electropuces" sounds, at best, unappetising. Whenever the word 'puce' has been used within my hearing it has been to describe someone who has 'turned puce', almost invariable followed by 'and vomited'.

puce | pjuːs |
adjective
of a dark red or purple-brown colour: his face was puce with rage and frustration.
noun [mass noun]
a dark red or purple-brown colour.
ORIGIN
late 18th century: from French, literally ‘flea(-colour)’, from Latin pulex, pulic-.

Now it sounds really unappetising.

That word is also used in Quebecois as a term of endearment.  Coming from an English-speaking area, I still do not understand.... at all.

Puces is also a term for lice, which is in the same category as flea.

Herbe à puces is just as unappealing ... poison ivy! 

[McBryce]

So how do international brands like Honda meet traditionally stricter EU requirements with thicker oils, but have to specify lower viscosity oils to hit US targets? Either the US targets have got tighter than EU targets (which possibility I admit but instinctively doubt, and am currently feeling too lazy to research) or there's something else going on.

That something else is climatic differences where heavier oils are harder and slower to lift in cold climates for initial start up lubrication where greatest engine wear takes place while the engine is cold.

Which would surely swing things the other way, all of Europe is north of half the US and all of the US (excluding Alaska) is south of half of Europe (Paris is about the same latitude as the straight bit of the US/Canada border). Taken overall the European climate averages out cooler than the US.

This map is both quite revealing, and quite interesting it its own right, and of course includes all climate information, not just latitude:

Interesting but completely wrong in some cases. Germany is colder than Ireland in the winter, but much warmer in the summer. So the chart only works for a particular season.

McBryce.

What is visually missing on that map is elevation.  Ireland is shown in the Vancouver area which is quite temperate and does not see much snow in winter, due to not being cold enough by moderating effect of the ocean.  If you venture towards Cypress Mountain, where Germany is overlaid, then you get elevation and less moderating from the Pacific; this is where all the Vancouverites go for cross country skiing with typical -10C winter day temperatures.  My experience skiing in Oberamergau certainly agrees with this.
My perspective is that the map agrees with your statement that

Germany is colder than Ireland in the winter

.

Although on second thought, I am not so certain about

but much warmer in the summer

.  I can only surmise that with the moderating effect of the ocean around Vancouver, that this may hold true as well.  Certainly, it gets much hotter the more one travels into the interior of British Columbia.

EDIT:  Thanks Cerebus for filling in the summer bit: 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4050037/#msg4050037

As I grew up in Ireland but live in Germany, I can assure you that the "second thought" is very much true. Summer temperatures in Germany are generally around 8-10°C higher than in Ireland.

McBryce.

[Robert763]

To finish, took some piccies of the FRB power socket at the back, and the power cord, just for you, because I thought the professional and conscientious Sparky in you would approve the quality of the work 

   

As an electrician, those pictures cause me physical pain.

I know, right? That bulkhead connector is just  ...  I console myself with the hope that once Vince gets the thing mostly working, he'll actually dismantle the matching socket and install a power cord properly, at which point the ugly should be mostly hidden.

mnem
*toddles off to do something constructive*

Done with the donour, buttoned it up...  that included tidying the power cable... I feel better now... do you ? 

NO.
Single insulation
no strain relief at connector
Why didn't you take the connector off the grey cable and fit it directly on to the black cable?

[BU508A]

Ah, so it was you...

You make me sound as if I was guilty of something... 

Everybody is guilty of something. No exceptions.

Watch it, or I'll have to go all Vimes on you...

Guardening Darkness rules!