Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[m k]

Type 575 in California today, shortly.
https://www.allsurplus.com/asset/716/13349

From handles I'd say that somewhere the seller had this, large chunk of old radio and TV tubes and Porsche rims.

Is my browser's cache stuck?
($47)

[m k]

Would it be a blasphemy to convert GOS-935 to a power supply?
https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_industriels/2077356723.htm

I can see how you arrived at the idea, but you would be required to do the readout (numeric and/or pointer) on the CRT! 

Yes, but the up side is that there is a collar so I can drill some holes and with some leds and ldrs add a touch pad.

[almost visible picture here]

Polar Mohr is a paper cutter.

Can't remember what is the function of the right pedal but center is enabler.
Edge of the table has thumb buttons, those and the center pedal are needed for the operation.

Rotating black knob moves the depth plate that is not visible and above the machine seen lighted mirror image of a ruler.

Blade is a bit curved and behind of it is a pressure plate.
Plate goes down first and pressing thumb buttons more will do the cutting.

And of course the light curtain must also be intact before anything can happen.
Can't remember exactly how but for sure inside of those arms are some light beam direction adjustment things.

Edit,
can't find that energy price post by scrolling back.
(is that generally even allowed)

Total energy was not exactly accurate.
No well so water is provided by the county waterworks.

Generally it seems that annually 90% is used for heating, or cooling.
That excludes water heating.
So heat pumping can be very profitable.

About cooling.
Upper floor can go over 30C if summer happens to find here.

[THDplusN_bad]

My latest acquisitions, saw them on gumtree, never seen the Iwatsu and so little information on the net, so obviously I had to grab it.

PS: Thankfully xdevs had a manual for the Leader.

Nice one - I have exactly the same LCR-measurement bridge. It is more accurate than its own specs in most ranges and a joy to use.

Cheers,

THDplusN_bad

[mnementh]

Also puts a new spin on the phrase "All fur coat and no knickers"...

I've not heard that saying before.

The closest equivalent that comes to mind is "Full of hot air" ... or the simple "Bullshit".

Erm, no. It implies a certain moral laxity on behalf of the [normally female] target. I think you're confusing it with "All mouth and no trousers" to speak of one who "talks a good game" but which one knows will never actually take the actions boasted of being immanent - "One of these days Alice!".

Daughter: "Mum come quickly, Jonnie said that Albert's girlfriend is all fur coat and no knickers and Albert's said he's going to find Jonnie and thump him."
Mother: "Eee, pay that one no mind lass. He's all mouth and no trousers 'e is. He'll do nowt but talk about it."

I always thought it was about paying more attention to appearances at the expense of essentials.
Good description of lots of websites and e-commerce....

That would be "All hat and no cattle."    

mnem
"Yeah, he talks a good fight."

[mnementh]

Yes i did.
Going to do just that. Solder the BNC's Ground-wire, replacing the Backlight, replacing the knobs.
the knobs had to much UV i think, they just break when you pull them off . so that took 5 seconds in my case
great tip on first removing tha power knob, so i don't break my switch too...

Thanks! 

Yeah; I've done a few CCFL--->LED BL conversions; what you don't realize until after you've done the job is how much crisper the display is, and how areas you didn't realize were darker are now brilliant and clear.

One of those things I feel the "Right to Repair" people should prioritize... we have 100s of millions of displays manufactured every year, and none of them designed such that the BL can be replaced without major surgery on a delicate LCD, and deliberate obsolescence/turnover marketing set aside, there is no good reason. This is literally one of the worst occurrences of "can't be arsed for no good reason" in modern manufacturing; a crime against nature.

mnem
 

[med6753]

More work on the Type 105.

See schematic. Verified both transformer secondaries with all 5V4G rectifiers removed. 550VAC and 485VAC. The power on switch is intermittent and has to be replaced.




The reason for a pair of 5V4G's in parallel for each supply is not just due to overall load. Inrush current is the over writing factor. At these higher voltages tube rectifiers get very angry if they are sourcing initial inrush output capacitance much higher than about 60uf. The upper supply has effectively 120uf total capacitance and the lower supply has effectively 80uf total capacitance. I'm not sure why Tek went with several dual can 2x20uf/450V capacitors but it might have to do with availability and ESR considerations. But my replacements here will be a single 120uf/450V and an 82uf/450V. I've encountered this arrangement before in other Tek equipment and I've combined the total capacitance into 1 capacitor with no ill effects. I don't expect problems here.

There is also the temptation to eliminate the 5V4G's and install a single SS bridge for each supply but for now I'll keep it original. 

The pilot lamp and fan works. And so do the tube filaments. The BOM has been prepared and order submitted for replacement capacitors. Tomorrow I will pull the range switch deck and try to fix the jam.

 

[Cubdriver]

More work on the Type 105.

See schematic. Verified both transformer secondaries with all 5V4G rectifiers removed. 550VAC and 485VAC. The power on switch is intermittent and has to be replaced.

Brown Santa allegedly has one of these on his truck for delivery to me today.  I blame you, Mike!   

-Pat

[med6753]

More work on the Type 105.

See schematic. Verified both transformer secondaries with all 5V4G rectifiers removed. 550VAC and 485VAC. The power on switch is intermittent and has to be replaced.

Brown Santa allegedly has one of these on his truck for delivery to me today.  I blame you, Mike!   

-Pat

Ho, ho, ho. 

[mnementh]

Have to admit, for some moment I couldn't believe you were asking for help with that.

Only for a moment? Eh, think I need to make some more intelligent remarks in the future then. Need to crank that up to "I knew there was no way in hell you're that dumb". 

Old saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".

Has everybody been sitting in a puddle of shame, thinking back to the time they allowed themselves to be fooled three times, and thus have been too emotionally burdened to post anything?

I ask because nobody has posted anything for three and a half hours, and I normally take that as an indication that something is broken, but the forum seems to be working fine. 

Sorry, C... I weren't here to stir shit up; at the time you wrote this I was a wee bit busy hurling everything I'd eaten in the last couple days and wishing I were dead for like the 5th time.

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection... but I'm still a bit weakish. Daughter seems to be doing better... she just had some yogurt for breakfast, now comes the wait & watch to see if she keeps it down...

mnem
The gift that keeps on giving...

[Cubdriver]

Sorry, C... I weren't here to stir shit up; at the time you wrote this I was a wee bit busy hurling everything I'd eaten in the last couple days and wishing I were dead for like the 5th time.

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection... but I'm still a bit weakish. Daughter seems to be doing better... she just had some yogurt for breakfast, now comes the wait & watch to see if she keeps it down...

mnem
The gift that keeps on giving...

That sucks.  A stomach bug won't kill you, but it will certainly make death seem like a very appealing alternative while it runs its course.  Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt.  Hope you get to feeling better soon.

-Pat

[factory]

Got a bit distracted yesterday & never got round to testing the 5340A with the replacement PROMs. 

Went to a HAM radio sale and came back with a 18GHz Systron Donner counter model 6016, a hp 333A distortion anaylzer (for less than the PPauction prices), some random parts, vacuum bulbs, some lamps and two bags of mixed ICs.

There was also a hp 141T spectrum analyzer for sale, with the 8555A plug-in, I didn't buy it as I already have two of those (currently broken), plus my back said no to carrying it back to the van, it did sell but was still there when I went back after lunch (2pm ish) to buy the rest of the ICs & neon lamps.


David

How not to use a hp 141T spectrum analyzer mainframe (or other early hp analog storage CRT oscilloscope), excessive intensity (max in this case) in non-storage mode (Conv.), pretty much guaranteed to have a trashed CRT storage mesh now.    Shame as it looked okay on Sunday, saw it on ePay this morning at £400, now down to £250, which is still a lot more than it was at the sale.



The missing operating instruction & warning sticker on one of my 141Ts.


Warning sticker on a hp 141A oscilloscope display section (not mine).


Edit: I don't think there are enough warnings in the manual (141T, 1973)




David

[tggzzz]

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection...

UTIs can have a strange effect on mental capacity. My father's dementia noticeably improved when his UTI was dealt with.

[factory]

Extra pics for above 141T post.

David

[mnementh]

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection...

UTIs can have a strange effect on mental capacity. My father's dementia noticeably improved when his UTI was dealt with.

I wish I could claim that as a excuse but no, I'm just weird. 

mnem

[Vince]

Some sleep and I am functional again !  So let's see what was in that box 

Grab a pint of tea and a couple packets of your favorite biscuits 

It's....a nice boat anchor !   Well it's not that heavy.. 17kg according to the manual, though I  don't know it's that dry weight or not...

I can't afford to import a fancy HP 8 nixie counter, probably never will, but I found the next best thing ! A French equivalent... a Ferisol type HA300B.
'60s design, full width, looking rugged and indestructible, all discrete transistor design, 50MHz (given for 51MHz actually... marketing at play I guess...), 8 Nixie tubes, a main frame with a plug-in on the right side, and a ton of plug-in boards inside.
It is just like the old HP... but it's a Ferisol. Actually it means more to me, begin a defunct French company, so quite exotic and rare of course, being a local product, and such low volume, compared to a "mundane" easy to get (just click 'Buy' on Ebay and pay the money). So preserving this piece is even more essential I find, and I am that much more happy to have it.



Power socket : has the weirdest socket I have ever seen, for sure ! It's not even a "consumer" type socket ! Plus, it's PROTRUDING instead of being recessed ! Might be why they added handle bars at the back as well.. to protect this connector somewhat. See picture below. It's round, protruding a lot, and has a bayonet style locking mechanism. Yes, I told you it was weird, didn't I...
Luckily the seller supplied the power cord to go with it !!! 
The service manual told me all about this connector, luckily : it's made by some company by the name of " SOCAPEX ", whoever they are. Model number for the socket is FFC23AL and for the plug it's EM23AL.

That's far more interesting than the usual HP counter, many of us have. 
Possibly the first time I've seen those neon trigger tubes in a counter, the early Anita calculators used them as ring counters, but not sure this is the case here. 

What intrigued me when I first saw them, is that they have 4 terminals... so clearly they must some exotic/special purpose kind of bulb...
Looked them up in the schematics, see below. Looks like they are used a switch to drive the HV to light up the Nixie digits.
Schematic shows the pinout for them. Looks like there an anode and cathode.. of course, but also a pin called ' St ' near the cathode, and another one near the anode this time, called ' Pr ' which it says, means ' Pre-ionization '.... good luck with that.

Manual calls this curios bulb a " Thyratron ", there you go ! I guess it does not translate...

Model : Z70U

What I suspect though, but not quite clear not even when reading the theory of operation section.... is that these bulbs have a dual purpose. They drive the Nixies but I suspect they might as well have some tricks up their sleeve that allows them to implement the latching of the display / data.... but need to study the manual more to be sure... but it's a strong suspicion.
That would make sense, as the symptoms for my 3 defective Nixie tubes seem to be a combination of driving and storage/latching. If one of these bulbs is defective, the chances of finding new ones for sale is... well is not great I would imagine !! 

Of interest, I note that there are only 7 bulbs, not 10.... so how can you drive the 10 digits in the Nixie tube ??
Found the answer in the theory of operation, see below. Looks like the Nixie tube they use, a " ZM 1032 " is wired internally with some multiplexing... instead of having just a common anode and a cathode for each of the 10 digits, you have TWO anodes and 5 cathodes.  There is anode common to the 5 'odd' digits, and another anode common to the 5 ' even ' digits.
This way you need only 5+2 lines to drive the tube, instead of 10+1 . Well I don't know if that's the reason... I doubt it, as tehre is plenty of PCB real estate to add the extra lines for a more traditional non multiplexed. I suspect the reason is probably more to do that the less lines you have, the less components you need. So cheaper and more compact board, more space in the instrument to implement more features or refine existing features. I don't know....

I've seen that connector before, believe it or not we had some at work, so something British Rail once used them. Can't remember if there was any left in the surplus stuff I acquired. 
David

My old friend got back to me about that. He says he has many other instruments of that era, from Adret for example, that used that connectors for power... go figure.
He told me the original manufacturer 80 years ago was ' FRB ', then Socapex in the '60's, then today made by " HyperTac ".

Searching for ' FRB connectors ' on Ebay was successful. Both the plug

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/313500692435?hash=item48fe18efd3:g:tBAAAOSwnt5gedAH


...and socket are available. About 10/12 Euros each.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/312857891583?hash=item48d7c892ff:g:ks8AAOSwoC9d2Qez

... or a bundle with a plug + socket, 20 Euros shipped... am tempted, a spare can't hurt...

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/312858224844?hash=item48d7cda8cc:g:z3IAAOSwoaNd2TCg

There is even a NIB old one, a plug, with all its accessories...

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/312858214400?hash=item48d7cd8000:g:lv0AAOSwFhZd2S-d

[factory]

There are a few NOS Z70U on ePay in Europe, plus a bunch of used ones in France (wonder what they destroyed to get those). Would be a good idea to check those high value resistors before suspecting the tubes.

From memory that "FRB" logo was in the sockets at work, also used a lot of HyperTac circuit board connectors at work, in all kinds of old British Rail equipment.

Almost forgot to add these pictures of a Thyratron based counter board that I bought many years ago, I suspect it might be from an Anita calculator, but have never seen one that matches these.
Really need to figure out had to test them, will probably have problems with the carbon resistors & selenium diode blocks (P1A made by Brimar).



David

[Cubdriver]

What intrigued me when I first saw them, is that they have 4 terminals... so clearly they must some exotic/special purpose kind of bulb...
Looked them up in the schematics, see below. Looks like they are used a switch to drive the HV to light up the Nixie digits.
Schematic shows the pinout for them. Looks like there an anode and cathode.. of course, but also a pin called ' St ' near the cathode, and another one near the anode this time, called ' Pr ' which it says, means ' Pre-ionization '.... good luck with that.

Manual calls this curios bulb a " Thyratron ", there you go ! I guess it does not translate...

Model : Z70U

What I suspect though, but not quite clear not even when reading the theory of operation section.... is that these bulbs have a dual purpose. They drive the Nixies but I suspect they might as well have some tricks up their sleeve that allows them to implement the latching of the display / data.... but need to study the manual more to be sure... but it's a strong suspicion.
That would make sense, as the symptoms for my 3 defective Nixie tubes seem to be a combination of driving and storage/latching. If one of these bulbs is defective, the chances of finding new ones for sale is... well is not great I would imagine !! 

Of interest, I note that there are only 7 bulbs, not 10.... so how can you drive the 10 digits in the Nixie tube ??
Found the answer in the theory of operation, see below. Looks like the Nixie tube they use, a " ZM 1032 " is wired internally with some multiplexing... instead of having just a common anode and a cathode for each of the 10 digits, you have TWO anodes and 5 cathodes.  There is anode common to the 5 'odd' digits, and another anode common to the 5 ' even ' digits.
This way you need only 5+2 lines to drive the tube, instead of 10+1 . Well I don't know if that's the reason... I doubt it, as tehre is plenty of PCB real estate to add the extra lines for a more traditional non multiplexed. I suspect the reason is probably more to do that the less lines you have, the less components you need. So cheaper and more compact board, more space in the instrument to implement more features or refine existing features. I don't know....

Vince - the thyratron is basically the tube predecessor of the SCR.  It uses a small signal to 'trip the switch' and begin conduction.  I'm guessing that somewhere off the posted part of the schematic is something to cut the current off, because I believe that, like SCRs, they keep conducting after being triggered until the current flowing through drops below some relatively low value.  Edit to add - perhaps the 'St' connection somehow breaks the conductivity to turn it off.  Edit to the edit - perhaps more likely it's the 'Pr' connection, as they all seem to go to the same point (R71), as the 'St' connections seem to go off page independently.



-Pat

[tggzzz]

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection...

UTIs can have a strange effect on mental capacity. My father's dementia noticeably improved when his UTI was dealt with.

I wish I could claim that as a excuse but no, I'm just weird. 

It is in the nature of the beast that you couldn't claim it.

[Vince]

There are a few NOS Z70U on ePay in Europe, plus a bunch of used ones in France (wonder what they destroyed to get those). Would be a good idea to check those high value resistors before suspecting the tubes.

David

Ah yes, I found the French Ebay ad, guy selling a lot of 21 salvaged one sfor 56 Euros... don't need that many though, and can't waste 56 Euros unless it's absolutely necessary... will debug the thing first and change only the one or ones that need replacing... if they are at fault at all.

Saw an ad on our local " Craig's list ".. leboncoin.fr. guy is selling NOS tubes and the Z70U is on his list of available tubes...

https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/2052222205.htm

I would rather buy a single NOS tube, replace only the one that needs replacing, if any, rather than waste 50/.60 EUros mass replacing them with worn out ones, and not even having learned anything.... the troubleshooting part is the interesting bit ! 

But that's still not a lot of ads for them so... it's not like there is plethora of them no the market so..... I guess I better put that counter on top of my repair queue so that in case I do need one or more of these Thyratrons... they are still available. Would hate to dig out the counter in 5 years, figure out I need 3 of these little bulbs, and not find any any more for sale ! 

Yeah... think this counter repair will be top of the list once the lab is operational. Plus it's one of the master pieces in my collection, so I am impatient to have it restored anyway so I can play with it and put it to some use !! 

[Vince]

There are a few NOS Z70U on ePay in Europe, plus a bunch of used ones in France (wonder what they destroyed to get those). Would be a good idea to check those high value resistors before suspecting the tubes.

From memory that "FRB" logo was in the sockets at work, also used a lot of HyperTac circuit board connectors at work, in all kinds of old British Rail equipment.

Almost forgot to add these pictures of a Thyratron based counter board that I bought many years ago, I suspect it might be from an Anita calculator, but have never seen one that matches these.
Really need to figure out had to test them, will probably have problems with the carbon resistors & selenium diode blocks (P1A made by Brimar).



David

Oops I replied before the edit.... thanks for adding the piccies. So these things can implement the counting mechanism all by themselves then ?!    That's one smart little bugger ! 

[factory]

See part 2 in the link below, for info on the ring counter boards used in the Anita calculator, there are many more in the rest of the calculator, which I haven't got & probably never will based on what they sell for. 

http://anita-calculators.info/html/the_technology_explained.html

Need to translate, but looks like someone has restored one of the Anita calculators here;
http://technischmuseum.nl/devices/Anita%20MK8/Anita%20MK8.html

David

[Vince]

Vince - the thyratron is basically the tube predecessor of the SCR.  It uses a small signal to 'trip the switch' and begin conduction.  I'm guessing that somewhere off the posted part of the schematic is something to cut the current off, because I believe that, like SCRs, they keep conducting after being triggered until the current flowing through drops below some relatively low value.  Edit to add - perhaps the 'St' connection somehow breaks the conductivity to turn it off.  Edit to the edit - perhaps more likely it's the 'Pr' connection, as they all seem to go to the same point (R71), as the 'St' connections seem to go off page independently.



-Pat

Oh, thanks !  An early glowing thyristor, that makes a lot of sense indeed !
I mean by it's very nature if acts as a switch AND automatically latches the data, so indeed the bugger implements the latching part as well as the driving....

So the mindset is reversed then... it's not like : " How can we implement a latching mechanism in this counter ", but more like " it's latched by default so now let's figure out a way to UNlock it "when we want to see the counting happening ! 

OK... making progress here for sure ! 

Sorry for the truncated schematic. It's a 3 page fold out and the PDF file has it spread ov 3 different pages, it's a nightmare to read. Think I will spend some hours stitching the XXX foldout schematics in the PDF... but short term workaround is just to use the original printed copy of the manual, since I am lucky enough to have it.

Maybe I could try to take a hi res pic of my printed manual... hold on...

[Vince]

See part 2 in the link below, for info on the ring counter boards used in the Anita calculator, there are many more in the rest of the calculator, which I haven't got & probably never will based on what they sell for. 

http://anita-calculators.info/html/the_technology_explained.html

Need to translate, but looks like someone has restored one of the Anita calculators here;
http://technischmuseum.nl/devices/Anita%20MK8/Anita%20MK8.html

David

Loved the Mullard's love letter to these bulbs !  I am starting to grow very fond of these little things, like they are the highlight of the counter... yet they go unnoticed, hidden inside !
Knowing there are dozens of these cute little buggers lighting up and dancing like a X-mas tree, yet you can't even see/enjoy them... feels like such a waste  !
Maybe I could make a cut out in the top cover and add a piece of transparent plexiglass !!! 

Second / restoration link cool as well, guy was well motivated, he loves his Anita for sure ! I get to see what it looks like then... an awful lot more compact than I thought it might be ! It's not like it takes 3 cabinets to host it.... sure it's not pocket size, but it's easily transportable, you can put it on a desk no problem...

[mnementh]

Seems I caught some nasty GI bug on our trip, and now daughter has it. A trip to the doc got me sorted for that and antibiotics for an emergent kidney infection...

UTIs can have a strange effect on mental capacity. My father's dementia noticeably improved when his UTI was dealt with.

I wish I could claim that as a excuse but no, I'm just weird. 

It is in the nature of the beast that you couldn't claim it.

Do you mean that in a general existential sense as in any person with said illness, or just me personally...? 

mnem

[BU508A]

There is a kind of cross-over between Nixie tubes and Thyratrons.
They are called ITS1A or ITS1B.

Here is an example:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/171762027699



They are rare and expensive beasts but I do like their colour and the presentation of the digit.

Datasheet for download:
http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/russian-book-0001.djvu

Edit:

added a detailed description for a clock with six ITS1-A including some schematics.
Source: http://www.nixiekits.eu/service.php

Some pictures and a description in english:
http://www.badnixie.com/Jurgen_Graus_ITS1A_B_Thyratron_Clock.html