Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Robert763]

I seem to have won the relay battle by pounding the dissident voices into oblivion with a 25-page presentation.
So hermetic it will be...
And my NGRU was put to work for verification that they are really polarity insensitive.

The Blue one is polarised. That type has a small permanent magnet to make them more sensitive. It also means the drop out voltage is very low. I've tested 24V examples that held in down to 3V. You have to be careful of sneak paths when the drop out is that low.

[med6753]

Took over an hour to start the snowblower.  Carburator must have been partially gummed up.  Yes, there was some fuel so it did not dry out to a hard varnish during storage.  Yes, there was stabilizer in the fuel.  Yes, it was high octane fuel with no ethanol.  Tank was mostly filled with new winter fuel purchased this month.

Not much later, the snowblower found the stick that the dog had been playing with.  Okay, actually a 3" diameter firewood log.  Yes, shear pins work.  It is a PITA to replace a shear pin, especially outside far from the garage.

Finished snow clearing at 9:51pm, then still had to walk the dog...

Now time for 

Is it a Tecumseh "Snow King" engine? If yes I pity you. There's a reason they went under and out of business. Their carbs were total crap and even pampered the passages would clog up with the result you experienced.     

[mansaxel]

I'm with mnementh on that one - I still think a properly made up wire-nutted connection is better than those little spring things.  Not as fast or easy to make up, but there's much greater contact area than you get with the spring terminals, and it makes a good solid connection if the wires are properly twisted with a pair of pliers before the wire nut is installed.

-Pat

I believe we have instruments that can test electrical properties.

This is "FK" cable, 7-strand 1,5mm² (around AWG15), two pieces per sample joint of about 18cm per piece. The stripping was done to manufacturers requirement, 11mm for 221 clamp, and 15mm for Torix^(tm).  Wires were pre-twisted in the nut. This is not required, especially not if you are using a 1/4" bit holder in a Makita or similar to twist the Torix -- that is explicitly allowed and recommended by Schneider who make them. I hand-twisted here, and then it is easier to do a bit of pre-forming by hand.

It is, in practice, a tie. At 100Hz, there was no difference. At 1KHz, the 221 wins by 3mΩ.

I will push 10A through them and test voltage drop. That's probably going to weed the differences out.

[Ice-Tea]

*love*

[Specmaster]

I'm with mnementh on that one - I still think a properly made up wire-nutted connection is better than those little spring things.  Not as fast or easy to make up, but there's much greater contact area than you get with the spring terminals, and it makes a good solid connection if the wires are properly twisted with a pair of pliers before the wire nut is installed.

-Pat

Like so many things in life, there are always so many "ifs". I tend to agree but better yet, Mnementh said, a wire under a screw, in properly designed terminal strip/junction box is the best option of all.

[TERRA Operative]

I had to completely replace the foam in the case of test fixture boards I got for my 4145B. I was lucky the set contained the tiny leads for connecting up your DUT, but it's missing one of them. I've been looking for an extra to complete the set, so if you come across any, let me know!

Which wires do you need? I can get Staubli SLS205 stacking 2mm gold plated banana plugs, and also gold plated hook probes off the shelf in Akihabara so I'm making my own leads with teflon wire.
Maybe you can find these parts or equivalents locally?

https://www.sengoku.co.jp/mod/sgk_cart/detail.php?code=EEHD-5N3L

https://akizukidenshi.com/catalog/g/gP-11774/

Ah ha! I found the part I plan to use for the small pin to plug into the 'Socket Boards' that are used in the test fixture.

Staubli Multi-Contact part number 22.2070-21 22.1007

Definitely interested to see what you make. 

I just ordered a bunch from RS Components, should arrive early next week.

Next step, triax cables... I think I'll make them, I can get connectors that are very similar (Same brand even, I think) that HP/Yokogawa used for a good price, pending stock levels etc...

Very good. I cheaped out for now and got some of those from that Chinese seller on ebay. They are ok but not very consistent quality wise. They sent me another one because one of the original 4 has a problem.

Got delivery of the test fixture kit today, here's a photo of the two test leads.
Only two whole ones, plus a few scraps in the box.

The wire is thinner than I used, and the 2mm stacking banana jack has 'MC' on one side and '0.5' on the other followed by a square logo.
The pin jack is a stacking type and just has 'MC' on both sides.

[mansaxel]

I'm with mnementh on that one - I still think a properly made up wire-nutted connection is better than those little spring things.  Not as fast or easy to make up, but there's much greater contact area than you get with the spring terminals, and it makes a good solid connection if the wires are properly twisted with a pair of pliers before the wire nut is installed.

-Pat

Like so many things in life, there are always so many "ifs". I tend to agree but better yet, Mnementh said, a wire under a screw, in properly designed terminal strip/junction box is the best option of all.

One of the ifsandbuts with screwed connections is that they, too, suck. Unless they're properly caging the wire and pulling it tight towards the contact area. If there's simply a screw head or end pressing down on a naked (even worse if stranded, which is why ferrules are awesome) wire, they are horrible. They will deform the conductor, cut strands and make bad things in general.  As noted; if the wire has been ferruled or given a ring/pin/spade lug, bare screws might be OK.

This is an OK screw terminal:

[Robert763]

*love*

They must be good, they are UL USA/Canada approved....
 

[xrunner]

I would be inclined to re-type it on the computer and print it on some laser printer sticker paper, laminate it with some clear book covering sticker sheet (Or get sticker paper with lamination sticker in the pack) and stick on a completely new set of instructions.

That way you aren't sealing in a ratty old bit of torn paper for evermore.

So to do this I'll have to find a serif font that looks close enough. Shouldn't be too hard. Only thing is there are some primitive graphics used consisting of a rectangle with text either above or below it centered with the sentence. Will have to work on how to do that - maybe insert an externally created graphic. 

The "sticker" that Boonton made is not paper. It's some sort of very thin metallic sheet laminated with plastic on top. The metallic look isn't so obvious though, it's pretty muted, so that I think light gray paper could be used then the protective clear book covering.

There is such a thing as silver laser paper and silver laser sticker paper. However, many reviews say the text doesn't stick to it well, and I don't want a 50 pack of that just for a couple of prints. Also, I think it will look too flashy or "decorative" for this project. I don't feel like wasting $10 for something that won't work for this.

The first step is just to simply type in the text and get a working document. So let's see what I can come up with using light gray paper with a re-creation of the text and graphics. Hey can it be harder that making 3D buttons LOL ... 

[mnementh]

Yeah, even with all your proselytizing, I'm still not convinced of the superiority of your little spring/cam clips, Z. I think their perceived "safety" is more a matter of the tech being a few decades old and lack of documented failure than anything inherent in the connection they provide.

If done properly, wire nuts primarily serve only as insulation over the joint and to keep the twisted wires from loosening. While I still prefer a wire carefully hooked under a screw or a properly-sized grub-screw barrier strip, I can live with wire nuts. I've seen wire-nutted connections I know for a fact are 60 years old still tight and corrosion-free; the main problem is moisture, which is universal.

One thing they do bring to the table is removing the competence of the sparky from the equation to some extent; veteran wire-monkey or brain-dead noob will both get the same quality of connection. I don't know that I feel this is necessarily a good thing.

Cheers,

mnem
 

The fact that something is good because it is <jfk>haard</jfk> might be valid as political rhetoric but in a safety-critical activity the practice of "Warum Einfach, wenn's auch kompliziert geht" is a detrimental factor in system security.  Claiming it is good in that context IMNSHO is guild protectionism and back-asswards attitude to progress. Not a Dragon way to do things, most of the time!

The Wago 221 series are uniquely evolved to cope with a number of problems, and while some other spring clamp systems (including earlier Wagos) have caused -- always in concert with ignorant sparkies -- some serious overheating problems, the 221 is largely free from these problems. 

Because, there were documented failures. And they were acted upon.

What happened in Sweden was that the early spring clamps were ill suited to our 7-strand conduit wire.  We pull loose bundles of 7-strand hookup wire in either AWG15 or AWG13 (1,5mm² or 2,5mm²) in PVC conduit where US practice would be ROMEX in metal conduit. We can pull our variant of ROMEX/Twin-and-earth/Nym-J, the EKK, and its halogen-free successors in conduit as well.

The 221 Series permits use where  7-strand FK / FQ (the latter halogen-free) is to be terminated and will give a <punk type=daft>harder, faster, better</punk> connection than wire nuts, electrically on par with carefully installed "Submarines" (dead-end insulated barrier strips).

It also is smaller and won't crowd junction boxes. If one is careful and stupid, new wires can be introduced without de-energising the circuit.  Try that with a wire nut... (In practice, it means that you are safer from accidental energising since time spent in contact with live metal is minimised.)

The 221 is much better than anything else I've ever tried. Wire-nuts are utter shit in comparison. I won't be going back. As a matter of fact, when I'm rewiring or redoing electricks, I remove all wire-nuts I can and replace with 221 clamps. At a considerable expense, but the results are definitely worth it.

I love your passion, mans... never, ever stop. 

You're absolutely right... not the dwagon way to do things. My opinion is based on a lot of experience and a better than average technical understanding of the mechanics involved, as is my caution regarding this new technology; until it is proven, I will still prefer a properly prepped/applied barrier strip or properly twisted and nutted or crimp-capped connection for conductor-conductor splices in solid-core wire. OTOH, for stranded wire, I prefer quad-crimped butt-splices covered with sealant-infused shrink-wrap, but that's definitely NCE in most situations.

We'll see what the WAGO track record looks like when they've been in widespread service for 60 years. 

mnem
well, I probably won't live that long...

[mnementh]

Yeah, even with all your proselytizing, I'm still not convinced of the superiority of your little spring/cam clips, Z. I think their perceived "safety" is more a matter of the tech being a few decades old and lack of documented failure than anything inherent in the connection they provide.

In Italy we say a knife in human hands can save life or kill people, it depends who is using it. The brain behind the tools is the real deal.

My personal brain is allergic to all the US main stuff, tho. It is my personal problem mnem... anyway good luck with your installation.

I am sure you will not give up and I am curious to see how you will master that mess.

Yes, a world of wisdom in that sentiment; I agree 111%.

LOL... Well, yeah; particularly stuff like cloth-clad wires or aluminum ROMEX still in service makes my brain cry.   

But the old NEC standard of copper 12/2WG ROMEX, even just drilled and pulled through studs... that I feel perfectly confident in. Even aluminum core, if I've retro-prepped the wires with Noalox and screw-down duplex outlets/switches. Problem with that of course is not the connections you fix, but always the connections you never got a chance to see... 

Honestly, I'm still in the Denial stage right now.  I have no idea how I'm going to deal with this fustercluck; worse yet, no idea how much I can fix with my hands tied behind a lease contract.   

[mnementh]

The point of interest mostly is it has the weighted horizontal tuning knob that was a Marantz "thing",

It may be a Marantz "thing" but it's certainly not an exclusive. I've an old TEAC tuner that the (large) tuning knob is made out of machined billet aluminium, and it's so heavy, one good spin gives it enough momentum to get from one end of the dial to the other (and then some).

Ditto. Things like that are a joy in the hand. 

mnem
No, not that kind of joy, you pervs.

[mnementh]

This has nothing to do with anything, but I found it very satisfying to watch and leave it here in that spirit.

That has a lot to do with everything!  I have metal roofing installed on the garage and kennel (but similar size to a stable).  I did not install snow bars ... yet.
The old dog hated when that happened and the snow came down.  That video really did not capture the sound that would be experienced inside the building!

Note:  Must move the Napoleon BBQ before that happens.

Started shovelling at 3pm today.  Managed to get access to the main garage door by 4:45pm.
Then had a FML experience.

Took over an hour to start the snowblower.  Carburator must have been partially gummed up.  Yes, there was some fuel so it did not dry out to a hard varnish during storage.  Yes, there was stabilizer in the fuel.  Yes, it was high octane fuel with no ethanol.  Tank was mostly filled with new winter fuel purchased this month.

Not much later, the snowblower found the stick that the dog had been playing with.  Okay, actually a 3" diameter firewood log.  Yes, shear pins work.  It is a PITA to replace a shear pin, especially outside far from the garage.

Finished snow clearing at 9:51pm, then still had to walk the dog...

Now time for 

Uggghhh... my back aches just thinking about what you just powered through; been dere, dunnat. 

I do hope we get our snowblower here from the last storage unit before we get hit with such volume of snow. 

Your miseries with the carburetor are why my "summerizing/winterizing" process is the same with all my small engines: Gas treatment, run 5 minutes for it to warm up and mix the treatment, turn off the gas, let the carb run dry. I install inline petcocks wherever possible if not already equipped.

"Cheap insurance!" says I.

mnem
Oh, and I just watched that video again, just for the lulz. 

[SilverSolder]

I would be inclined to re-type it on the computer and print it on some laser printer sticker paper, laminate it with some clear book covering sticker sheet (Or get sticker paper with lamination sticker in the pack) and stick on a completely new set of instructions.

That way you aren't sealing in a ratty old bit of torn paper for evermore.

So to do this I'll have to find a serif font that looks close enough. Shouldn't be too hard. Only thing is there are some primitive graphics used consisting of a rectangle with text either above or below it centered with the sentence. Will have to work on how to do that - maybe insert an externally created graphic. 

The "sticker" that Boonton made is not paper. It's some sort of very thin metallic sheet laminated with plastic on top. The metallic look isn't so obvious though, it's pretty muted, so that I think light gray paper could be used then the protective clear book covering.

There is such a thing as silver laser paper and silver laser sticker paper. However, many reviews say the text doesn't stick to it well, and I don't want a 50 pack of that just for a couple of prints. Also, I think it will look too flashy or "decorative" for this project. I don't feel like wasting $10 for something that won't work for this.

The first step is just to simply type in the text and get a working document. So let's see what I can come up with using light gray paper with a re-creation of the text and graphics. Hey can it be harder that making 3D buttons LOL ... 

You can also just take a picture of the original sticker, and touch it up on the computer in a graphics program (Paint, at a pinch), then print out a fresh copy!

[tggzzz]

I would be inclined to re-type it on the computer and print it on some laser printer sticker paper, laminate it with some clear book covering sticker sheet (Or get sticker paper with lamination sticker in the pack) and stick on a completely new set of instructions.

That way you aren't sealing in a ratty old bit of torn paper for evermore.

So to do this I'll have to find a serif font that looks close enough. Shouldn't be too hard. Only thing is there are some primitive graphics used consisting of a rectangle with text either above or below it centered with the sentence. Will have to work on how to do that - maybe insert an externally created graphic. 

If you really want the authentic look, take a high resolution photograph. Then use a photoeditor to clean it up, i.e. remove tears, clone characters from there to here etc.

Seems a lot of faff, though, but I've never been one for stuffing a new capacitor inside an old cap's case.

Has somebody suggested simply smoothing it out and applying varnish?

[Vince]

Tggzzz look what's just above your comment !

[tggzzz]

Tggzzz look what's just above your comment !

Yup The usual reason applies.

[mansaxel]

I will push 10A through them and test voltage drop. That's probably going to weed the differences out.

Yep, some fine TTi-supplied Ampères have been pushed down yonder yoints. As before, but at a slightly smaller margin, DC resistance winner is the Wago 221, with .0070 Ω compared to the Torix 6, at .0081 Ω.  All courtesy of Ohm's Law, as fed data by the [hp] 428b and the MetraHit 25.

The conclusion, to topic-cross with Vince and his BNC cables, is that the Wago 221 is the one to use for RF!

[mnementh]

Yup. I remember similar testing with Sermos vs XT60 connectors, with the know-it-alls singing the praises of Sermos heaped high. 

On our drag rails, after a few dozen runs, Sermos started to catch on fire while XT60s merely got warm to the touch (Okay, VERY warm). Yet bare wires screwed into barrier strips stayed cold as a stone. Best compromise solution was to double-up or triple-up connectors, which was much easier on the XT-60s; just a couple bus-bars made from 10ga ROMEX and voila!

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

The 221 is much better than anything else I've ever tried. Wire-nuts are utter shit in comparison. I won't be going back. As a matter of fact, when I'm rewiring or redoing electricks, I remove all wire-nuts I can and replace with 221 clamps. At a considerable expense, but the results are definitely worth it.

What I can't fathom, is why otherwise apparently intelligent people will defend wire nuts just because they're what they know. With a wire nut the wire is held in place by the spring tension caused by the compression of annealed copper (this also applies to any screwed connection), in Wago and similar terminals it's held in place by the spring tension of a properly tempered steel. Young's modulus of annealed copper = 110GPa,  Young's modulus of steel = 190-210 GPa. That ought to be Q.E.D. but no doubt the debate will carry on.

[xrunner]

You can also just take a picture of the original sticker, and touch it up on the computer in a graphics program (Paint, at a pinch), then print out a fresh copy!

Oh I'll futz around with the printing idea first, then if that isn't to my liking - try something else. 

[Cerebus]

I will push 10A through them and test voltage drop. That's probably going to weed the differences out.

Yep, some fine TTi-supplied Ampères have been pushed down yonder yoints. As before, but at a slightly smaller margin, DC resistance winner is the Wago 221, with .0070 Ω compared to the Torix 6, at .0081 Ω.  All courtesy of Ohm's Law, as fed data by the [hp] 428b and the MetraHit 25.

The conclusion, to topic-cross with Vince and his BNC cables, is that the Wago 221 is the one to use for RF!

The real test would be to leave them both for ten years and then re-test the conductivity. That's the crucial thing here. Initial performance is oftimes a poor indicator of long term performance, as anyone with an 'ex' will tell you. In both cases the long term performance difference can be safety critical, electrical fire or "the incident with the carving knife".

[mnementh]

Hell, the same is true of performance of any person as well... 

Look at how much better I performed most tasks at 25 than when I was 15... then look again at 35, then 45... and now, before long, at 55... 

mnem
Getting old ain't for wussies.

[mnementh]

You can also just take a picture of the original sticker, and touch it up on the computer in a graphics program (Paint, at a pinch), then print out a fresh copy!

Oh I'll futz around with the printing idea first, then if that isn't to my liking - try something else. 

I'll suggest that you can easily make it a text-only document by bracketing your button labels thusly: [xyx KEY] or [xyx KEY]

This would make the "graphics" content of the original document pretty much a moot point, as long as you can easily tolerate that difference from what is familiar.

mnem
*toddles off to do something constructive*

[xrunner]

I'll suggest that you can easily make it a text-only document by bracketing your button labels thusly: [xyx KEY] or [xyx KEY]

This would make the "graphics" content of the original document pretty much a moot point, as long as you can easily tolerate that difference from what is familiar.

Right ... and when the usual suspects complain it isn't "authentic" like the original are you going to back me up?