Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 16703100 times)

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Offline McBryce

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110500 on: January 06, 2022, 09:00:25 am »
That's not something we'll have to worry about for a long time. The current regulations require vehicles to still have a traditional breaking system (spec'ed to be able to stop the vehicle with no re-gen support at all) no matter how good the re-gen system is monitored. The current "discussion points" (ie: regulations up for consideration to change in the next 6 years) here in the EU don't indicate that this is going to change any time soon.
One other important point about re-gen braking (at least the current designs) - You can't always use it. If the HV battery is fully charged there's nowhere to dump the load, so most current systems only enable re-gen braking when the battery has reached 80% or less. Before then, the traditional brakes are doing all the work.

As for hub motors, they're a mess. They're unsprung weight which causes two major headaches: Handling is a disaster and they fall apart if you drive on roads with potholes.

McBryce.
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110501 on: January 06, 2022, 09:15:01 am »
As for hub motors, they're a mess. They're unsprung weight which causes two major headaches: Handling is a disaster and they fall apart if you drive on roads with potholes.


I agree, but these guys are serious about it:



 https://lightyear.one/technology
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 09:16:32 am by PA0PBZ »
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110502 on: January 06, 2022, 09:19:12 am »
For those who care: I have an EV. I rarely use the brake at all, when I go to the carwash there's zero brake dust to be washed away. Regen FTW.

But it doesn't always work: barely regen when the bat is full, very limited when the battery is not up to temperature (seems finicky with my LFP battery). The energy has to go somewhere. And it's still limited, mech brakes still have more power.

So, no, mech brakes aren't going away anytime soon.
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110503 on: January 06, 2022, 11:18:34 am »
Modern industry targets a specific design life for most consumer products - when that time is out, you are not expected to repair, but replace!  Similarly, most parts have become modularized to the point where a "repair" consists of swapping relatively large modules.

The basic philosophy seems to be that labour is a "bad thing" and must be prevented at all costs...   freeing it up, to do...  what?  :D
Freed up to not cut into corporate profits, and no other reason.

This current social paradigm is the classic double-bind; they tie your worth entirely to whom you work for, while at the same time actively doing everything they can not to pay people for working.

IME, corporations should be taxed based on the disparity between their profits and how few people they pay a living wage. The more people they employ per dollar, the less they pay in taxes.

mnem
*toddles off to ded*
By the same token, world governments and large corporations need to also wake up to the fact that with people not working, therefore not earning money in order to spend, is also not a sustainable business model. Its of no use to be producing things that can generate large profits if there aren't people with the ability to buy the items. Governments would lose all the tax revenues that people in employment generate as income tax and then by of VAT and other taxes when they spend the money earned. The quickest way into a depression is to have most of the worlds' money in the grip of corporations, who themselves will then begin to suffer through stagnation.

That is a model that needs to be broken as the wheel of life is the logical and ethical way forward, corporations employ people to make things that others wish to buy at realistic prices. The workers and corporations pay their share of taxes in order to provide all the support structures that everybody requires. The workers and corporations then spend their money to buy items for personal use, food etc and raw materials to continue the manufacture of goods, and in turn pay the sales taxes to further support more infrastructure like roads, health care etc.

Repairable items also become part of that wheel of life as newer and more desirable items are introduced, a lot of people will seek to buy them, passing on their old items to those less able to buy new and so the circle of life once again into play with the smaller items required to keep items in repair. Eventually those repairable items reach the end of useful life naturally by either being so old that they are always being repaired and thus become uneconomical or their function becomes so dated that nobody wants them any more, and then they can be recycled into raw materials to be fed back into the production of new products.

So things like metals, rubber, plastics, glass etc can be reused many times, wooden items that clearly is not the case, but the world could have managed forests to supply new wood and digest vast amounts of CO2 that currently is crippling the world.

It is all doable and everyone can have a good way of life, social classes could still be maintained but altered slightly, so the gulf is not as wide as they currently are.

 
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Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110504 on: January 06, 2022, 12:27:31 pm »
Regerative braking dies have issues with a full battery. However regeneration energy does not have to go into the battery. It can be dissipated in a resistor. Electric trains have done tht for years as part of their main service brake system.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110505 on: January 06, 2022, 12:47:43 pm »
I know, but that kind off defeats the purpose.
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110506 on: January 06, 2022, 01:11:31 pm »
As for hub motors, they're a mess. They're unsprung weight which causes two major headaches: Handling is a disaster and they fall apart if you drive on roads with potholes.
I agree, but these guys are serious about it:      https://lightyear.one/technology
Yeah, that website reads like a entrepreneurial investment scammer's wet dream. Their motor performance numbers state only "total peak vehicle torque of 1,920 Nm" which is utterly meaningless without RPM or at least a time factor in the equation. If we assume that number is based on LRA, then that figure is truly abysmal.

The fact they even bother including solar on the roof is your first clue that it's a scam; we don't do that because the weight of everything to do that costs more energy than it can possibly produce by an exponential amount. The rest is just "finger in the air" WAG figures to try and prop up a vehicle that exists only as a wheel motor prototype and the rest in somebody's Fusion360 folder. ;)

Exterior / Performance

Range: 725 km (WLTP)
Drive: All 4 independently controlled. Advanced torque vectoring.
Energy use: 83 Wh/km (WLTP) - excluding HVAC
Acceleration: 0 - 100 km/h in less than 10 seconds
Dimensions: (L x W x H) 5057 x 1898 x 1426 mm

Charging speeds
Amount of range in 1 hour charging:
Solar: 12 km   
3.7 kW at 230V: 35 km
22 kW (Public): 209 km
60 kW (Fast charging): 570 km


We can do better. ;)

mnem
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Offline Neper

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110507 on: January 06, 2022, 01:24:58 pm »
Electric trains have done tht for years as part of their main service brake system.

But only in combination with at least one other, usually two other brake systems, i.e. air and mechanical.

Besides, trains have room for such things  - noone would want a big resistor array on the roof of their motorcars - and untli a decade or two ago they already had resistors for realising a few additional 'notches' in their acceleration controllers which could then be used for rheostatic braking which, btw, has been the source of countless fires on EMUs and locomotives. Luckily, since the arrival of modern semiconductor controllers, all this is history.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 01:27:01 pm by Neper »
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110508 on: January 06, 2022, 01:30:09 pm »
The energy has to go somewhere.

Don't tell this secret to the Brusaw... they will develop an... effing Solar Roadways II where EVs can dump the energy in the solar road panel below and recharge all other EVs on the road.

It is still beyond my mind that someone sat down and developed a Solar Roadways.
I hope he will end like Elizabeth Holmes.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 01:31:40 pm by Zucca »
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110509 on: January 06, 2022, 01:40:52 pm »

The rest is just "finger in the air" WAG figures to try and prop up a vehicle that exists only as a wheel motor prototype and the rest in somebody's Fusion360 folder. ;)



Well, all I can say is that it exists and it moves ;)

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Offline McBryce

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110510 on: January 06, 2022, 01:59:57 pm »
As for hub motors, they're a mess. They're unsprung weight which causes two major headaches: Handling is a disaster and they fall apart if you drive on roads with potholes.
I agree, but these guys are serious about it:      https://lightyear.one/technology
Yeah, that website reads like a entrepreneurial investment scammer's wet dream. Their motor performance numbers state only "total peak vehicle torque of 1,920 Nm" which is utterly meaningless without RPM or at least a time factor in the equation. If we assume that number is based on LRA, then that figure is truly abysmal.

The fact they even bother including solar on the roof is your first clue that it's a scam; we don't do that because the weight of everything to do that costs more energy than it can possibly produce by an exponential amount. The rest is just "finger in the air" WAG figures to try and prop up a vehicle that exists only as a wheel motor prototype and the rest in somebody's Fusion360 folder. ;)

Exterior / Performance

Range: 725 km (WLTP)
Drive: All 4 independently controlled. Advanced torque vectoring.
Energy use: 83 Wh/km (WLTP) - excluding HVAC
Acceleration: 0 - 100 km/h in less than 10 seconds
Dimensions: (L x W x H) 5057 x 1898 x 1426 mm

Charging speeds
Amount of range in 1 hour charging:
Solar: 12 km   
3.7 kW at 230V: 35 km
22 kW (Public): 209 km
60 kW (Fast charging): 570 km


We can do better. ;)

mnem
 :-/O

A good indication of what stage of the development they are at is to look at the open job positions. It looks like they are at an extremely early stage. Their ridiculous timing also shows a lack of automotive experience. Also, according to the Wikipedia page, they think that they can get to production although they only have $110M funding so far, so if this doesn't change soon, they'll have run out of money before they make it to their first road-legal prototype.

McBryce.
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110511 on: January 06, 2022, 02:11:16 pm »

The rest is just "finger in the air" WAG figures to try and prop up a vehicle that exists only as a wheel motor prototype and the rest in somebody's Fusion360 folder. ;)
Well, all I can say is that it exists and it moves ;)


Wow! An actual prototype vehicle! w00t! :-+

Guess I was wrong, eh? :-DD

Even including this video, all we've seen that is real are wheel motors and a vehicle moving at a top speed of 30-40KPH.

My gut reaction.. and yes, I'm a cynical bastard... is that we're looking at a stripped-down/reskinned Prius with electric motorcycle hub motors at all 4 wheels. That's approx 5-10KW worth total, depending on how hard you drive them. For oodles of reasons, I smell gigawatts of BS painted over a few hundred watts of real power from those pancake motors in the motor demo.

I sure hope I'm wrong... it would be awesome to see an actual direct-drive EV with enough power that it isn't literally a danger to drive on public highways.

But I am still highly skeptical; it totally feels like just another variant of all the "perpetual motion" scams we've spent months dissecting on eevBlog.  ;)

mnem
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110512 on: January 06, 2022, 02:18:13 pm »
The Rivian RT1 is already in series with one Emotor/wheel.

See no rear diff neded....

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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110513 on: January 06, 2022, 02:18:56 pm »
A good indication of what stage of the development they are at is to look at the open job positions. It looks like they are at an extremely early stage. Their ridiculous timing also shows a lack of automotive experience. Also, according to the Wikipedia page, they think that they can get to production although they only have $110M funding so far, so if this doesn't change soon, they'll have run out of money before they make it to their first road-legal prototype.

McBryce.
Yeah... how many complete vehicles do they have to sacrifice just to get through crash-testing now...? Hand-building even 2-4 such vehicles will certainly eat up most of that... not much left over for tooling up a multi-billion-dollar factory space, ehhh?  :-DD

mnem

        Thanks, med.  >:D
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110514 on: January 06, 2022, 02:33:10 pm »
The Rivian RT1 is already in series with one Emotor/wheel.

See no rear diff needed....   
I didn't say you couldn't design it without a diff... only that one diff per axle is probably a better compromise, for all the reasons I stated previously. Dual inboard motors per axle is 95% of the disadvantages of a diff, and none of the advantages. Good thing they chose a truck platform, where handling is not a concern... and look at that abysmal range.  :palm:

While Ford was interested enough in the Rivian tech to give them some trucks for cheap/free and some investment capital, when it came time to put their production facilities into the equation, they made a strategic withdrawal double-time. My guess is they saw some value in the Rivian motor-control mixing solution, so decided to get their hooks into that tech for future Ford products.

mnem
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110515 on: January 06, 2022, 02:47:04 pm »
I need a small XY CRT display, anybody know any models I should be looking for on Ebay ? ideally something small that's why I don't want a full analog scope.
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110516 on: January 06, 2022, 02:53:59 pm »
Awww, man.... I feel like a bit of a dick now. We've been bashing on a bunch of college kids trying to make a real car based on their "Solar Challenge" vehicle.

https://electrek.co/2015/10/15/solar-team-eindhoven-unveiled-the-stella-lux-an-energy-positive-solar-car-photo-gallery/

   

I have to wonder just how much of this is actually the students, vs some entrepreneurial shark who's using them to fabricate credibility for this latest EV scam?

https://electrek.co/2021/12/16/lightyear-announces-34000-solar-electric-car/


mnem
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« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 02:59:33 pm by mnementh »
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Offline McBryce

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110517 on: January 06, 2022, 02:59:36 pm »
Awww, man.... I feel like a bit of a dick now. We've been bashing on a bunch of college kids trying to make a real car based on their "Solar Challenge" vehicle.

https://electrek.co/2015/10/15/solar-team-eindhoven-unveiled-the-stella-lux-an-energy-positive-solar-car-photo-gallery/

   

I have to wonder just how much of this is actually the students, vs some entrepreneurial shark who's using them as a front for this latest scam?

https://electrek.co/2021/12/16/lightyear-announces-34000-solar-electric-car/


mnem
*toddles off to plug in*

Don't feel bad, they stopped being students the moment they started looking for investors and telling the world that they were taking their product to mass production.

McBryce.
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110518 on: January 06, 2022, 03:37:15 pm »
I'd argue that this was the moment they became real students in that oldest institution of learning: The School of Hard Knocks. ;)

mnem
Good luck, you poor bastards; you're gonna need it. :-+
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Offline McBryce

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110519 on: January 06, 2022, 03:42:31 pm »
I'd argue that this was the moment they became real students in that oldest institution of learning: The School of Hard Knocks. ;)

mnem
Good luck, you poor bastards; you're gonna need it. :-+

As a student you scrounge money from your parents, as a startup you'll scrounge money from anyone! :D

McBryce.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110520 on: January 06, 2022, 04:55:54 pm »
I know, but that kind off defeats the purpose.

Well that depends if the purpose is to stop the vehicle or recharge the battery. Now normally the purpose is both, but if the battery's full...

One is presuming that sufficient smarts are applied to only use the braking resistor when strictly necessary. As this is the norm in industrial PMSM servo drives (charge DC rail capacitor when you can, switch to braking resistor when you can't) one would hope that they could get it right in the automotive equivalent.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110521 on: January 06, 2022, 05:02:16 pm »
Electric trains have done tht for years as part of their main service brake system.

But only in combination with at least one other, usually two other brake systems, i.e. air and mechanical.

Besides, trains have room for such things  - noone would want a big resistor array on the roof of their motorcars - and untli a decade or two ago they already had resistors for realising a few additional 'notches' in their acceleration controllers which could then be used for rheostatic braking which, btw, has been the source of countless fires on EMUs and locomotives. Luckily, since the arrival of modern semiconductor controllers, all this is history.

Put the array on the underside, make it large and shallow, add heatsink fins and call it "underbody aerodynamic flow control and rear airflow diffuser". Problem solved, more marketing bullshit for the brochure.  >:D

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110522 on: January 06, 2022, 05:29:17 pm »
Regerative braking dies have issues with a full battery. However regeneration energy does not have to go into the battery. It can be dissipated in a resistor. Electric trains have done tht for years as part of their main service brake system.
That was my understanding and if that connection to or the resistor should fail, then the vehicle has zero brakes, hence my concern about doing away with conventional brakes completely.
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110523 on: January 06, 2022, 05:36:25 pm »
Progress on the Type 1A4 four channel plug-in.

I decided rather than continue troubleshooting the internal PSU to instead design and install a replacement. The +12.1V supply is now regulated by a LM317T. The -15V supply is on an LM337T regulator. I know many folks shy away from using the negative LM337T because it has a reputation for being unstable. I've used them many times in the past and had no issues. The key is those 2 tants tucked up close to the input and especially to the output. They guarantee stability.


Bench testing the supplies prior to install.



Here's the supply installed. The regulators are bolted to the rear chassis. I removed all 7 transistors in the original supply plus several resistors to insure to no interaction or feedback. But I did make one near fatal mistake. I forgot one loop on the -15V supply and the first time I powered up it rose to -22V and stayed there. Would not adjust. Turns out I had to completely isolate that supply right at the transformer with a separate bridge rectifier. Once that was done the -15V properly set to nominal.



 And we have traces on the extender. All four channels present. Luckily that -22V over voltage didn't blow anything.



The plug-in directly installed. All four channels pass a signal. And the gain looks excellent. But the position controls are extremely noisy. No surprise. I let it run for a while then I pulled it and checked the regulators. They are barely warm which is also excellent.



Left to do: deoxit everything then proceed with calibration/compensation. I'll also draw up the schematic on TinyCAD and post it.   
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #110524 on: January 06, 2022, 05:44:20 pm »
That's not something we'll have to worry about for a long time. The current regulations require vehicles to still have a traditional breaking system (spec'ed to be able to stop the vehicle with no re-gen support at all) no matter how good the re-gen system is monitored. The current "discussion points" (ie: regulations up for consideration to change in the next 6 years) here in the EU don't indicate that this is going to change any time soon.
One other important point about re-gen braking (at least the current designs) - You can't always use it. If the HV battery is fully charged there's nowhere to dump the load, so most current systems only enable re-gen braking when the battery has reached 80% or less. Before then, the traditional brakes are doing all the work.

As for hub motors, they're a mess. They're unsprung weight which causes two major headaches: Handling is a disaster and they fall apart if you drive on roads with potholes.

McBryce.
Yes, and it seems that most countries these days is riddles with blasted potholes and its about time they were banished from existance.
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