Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Robert763]

This came up in the "suggested" list on that vid vk6zgo posted; lots of really interesting enginerdery involved in the new Veedub ID.4 AWD EV drivetrain.

Pull up the big comfy chair and some comfort food; it's pretty engrossing.     And when you're done with that, here's the ID.4 battery:



mnem
I nerd-sniped myself, so of course I had to pay it forward...

Beware, I've watched a couple of that Munro chap's videos and he said some things that didn't jibe with what even I know of motors and motor control. I can't recall specifics, but I do recall getting the sense that he's someone who should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've encountered a couple of times that people on here have taken statements of his as definitive when in fact they've been "ex-cathedra" pronouncements that were swiftly taken apart by those with some serious motor control chops and who actually design cutting edge battery systems. You can find the discussions buried somewhere in the interminable electric vehicle threads on here, if you're feeling brave enough.

I agree. I just watched the motor video. He clearly knows nothing about electronics or motors. He does claim to be a fastener expert who does not like threaded fasners. Then he says the the long bolts holding the rotor together are angle torqued to a plastic condition  If a fastener has plastic deformation it's lost all it's clamping. You want elastic deformation.
He complained about the numer of small screws in the inverter suggesting clips and glue instead. He repeatedly says the inverters won't be repaired. They clearly have been designed so they can be repaired.  Throwing away an inverter for a single component failure is so wastefull. The large number of screws enhances the reliaility of the inverter.

[mnementh]

Aww, jeez... I really was just trying to change the subject. I didn't want to start a whole new argument...

mnem
*toddles off to look for something constructive to do*

[Cerebus]

Strewth man you're touchy today. Stop trying to read everything as being aimed at belittling you. Trust me, if I want to lay into you it will be obviously and unambiguously written to do so (either that or crafted as the "English insult" so that you think you're being complimented and everybody else is laughing behind your back). Stop inferring malice where none is implied. If I don't actually call you a "fat stupid American fuck" I'm not trying to hide it in the subtext; and before you read that wrong, that's an example, not an intended insult. If I'm aiming a "diatribe" at you, it will look like one.  If I accuse you of being overly dramatic, it's because you chose words like diatribe ("a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something") when there's no "attack", no "forceful" and no "bitter".

My past editors have told me that I'm a good writer, which in the magazine world means "You convey, to the target audience, what needs conveying." not "Oh, we've found the new papa Hemmingway.", so I have some confidence that I can get across in writing what I intend. Now, if every man and his dog was telling me that they forever get the wrong end of the stick when I write something here then I'd take a hard look at the style and content of what I post. But that hasn't happened.

Now, I've spent way too long on composing this carefully so there is no way a reasonable person could read it as containing any attacks, criticisms and other things that the subject could take offence at other than "You're being too sensitive" and "You do over dramatise". If you choose to take this as a "bitter forceful attack" on you then these is nothing else I can do; moreover I'm not going to spend this level of effort each and every time I have something to say that you might choose to treat as the opening shots of a verbal war.

I'm tired of having to treat you with kid gloves, and every time I think you're out of that space where you take everything as an attack and can be talked to without picking every word like it's the one gem in pile of shit, you start again. I don't have the energy to constantly deal with that, and you might just be beginning to see from other people's weary remarks about "the dragon" that I'm not the only person who feels that way.

Oi...

That's it; The bar is closed, you're cut off.

When you came looking for a argument with the whole "Aww... this isn't that dangerous..." thing, I figured okay... I'm a good friend, I'll oblige and bite. It were a good one too, until you turned it personal. Evidently you needed it so what the Hell; I was feeling game and my hide is thick.
But I have to draw the line at 2 days... Sorry, as much as I sometimes love to indulge in a good old knock-down drag-out, I really have too much going on IRL ATM. I love you man, but I just can't right now. I'm sorry.

Cheers,

mnem
don't make me bring out the ...

Well I tried. It's quite clear that you're determined to believe that I'm out to antagonise you, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So have it your way, I'm now officially consigning you to the "more trouble than he's worth" pile.

[xrunner]

The white and black gloss model paint has arrived for the Boonton button finishing test.

My reputation will soon be on the line. I know what you're thinking "What reputation?"

 

[mansaxel]

Another trick I've seen for restoring magnetic tape is to hold it in a constant low vacuum* for a period of time to extract moisture and other volatiles without introducing any extra heat into the equation.

*In the strange world of vacuum terminology where 'high vacuum' means a very low reading on a pressure gauge and 'low vacuum' means a relatively high reading on a pressure gauge.

This was also a feature of the large digitisation project I've written about recently.  More so, though, at present employer, where video tapes frequently had to go through some kind of dehumification before playback.

The lore says it's because the binder in the tape formula that makes the rust stick to the plastique once was whale oil and when that became untenable the Ersatz did not allow for proper archive life. But I have no source on that beyond lore.

[mnementh]

...But I have to draw the line at 2 days... Sorry, as much as I sometimes love to indulge in a good old knock-down drag-out, I really have too much going on IRL ATM. I love you man, but I just can't right now. I'm sorry.

Cheers,

mnem
don't make me bring out the ...

Well I tried. It's quite clear that you're determined to believe that I'm out to antagonise you, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So have it your way, I'm now officially consigning you to the "more trouble than he's worth" pile.

Ahh, okay... I think we're at the "I'm not allowed to argue any more until you pay for another 5 minutes..." part of this sketch.

*crosses arms and  *

mnem


can someone please point me to a better version of this? All I could find was this and a stage version without Chapman...

[McBryce]

Huh... he seemed to not shy away from being critical of Tesla's tech in that vid; or rather, did not shy from saying "VW did this way better here..." Yeah, not the same thing. We know that Tesla's drivetrain is not exactly "good for a million miles"; motor failure in the "S" series is a ongoing gripe among owners.

Still a worthwhile watch.

mnem
 

I always find it amusing to hear people say "OEM X did a better job of the powertrain" or "OEM Y did a better battery". No OEM designed a powertrain or a battery, they decided the specs and wrote the requirements documentation. ZF, Siemens, Bosch or whoever designed and manufactured the motor. LG, Samsung, XeroTech or whoever designed and manufactured the battery. In the funnier cases people are arguing about two devices that were both designed and manufactured by the same company.

McBryce.

[Ice-Tea]

This came up in the "suggested" list on that vid vk6zgo posted; lots of really interesting enginerdery involved in the new Veedub ID.4 AWD EV drivetrain.

Pull up the big comfy chair and some comfort food; it's pretty engrossing.     And when you're done with that, here's the ID.4 battery:



mnem
I nerd-sniped myself, so of course I had to pay it forward...

Beware, I've watched a couple of that Munro chap's videos and he said some things that didn't jibe with what even I know of motors and motor control. I can't recall specifics, but I do recall getting the sense that he's someone who should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've encountered a couple of times that people on here have taken statements of his as definitive when in fact they've been "ex-cathedra" pronouncements that were swiftly taken apart by those with some serious motor control chops and who actually design cutting edge battery systems. You can find the discussions buried somewhere in the interminable electric vehicle threads on here, if you're feeling brave enough.

I agree. I just watched the motor video. He clearly knows nothing about electronics or motors. He does claim to be a fastener expert who does not like threaded fasners. Then he says the the long bolts holding the rotor together are angle torqued to a plastic condition  If a fastener has plastic deformation it's lost all it's clamping. You want elastic deformation.
He complained about the numer of small screws in the inverter suggesting clips and glue instead. He repeatedly says the inverters won't be repaired. They clearly have been designed so they can be repaired.  Throwing away an inverter for a single component failure is so wastefull. The large number of screws enhances the reliaility of the inverter.

Pretty sure he's right as far as the likelyhood of repair goes: it will never be repaired, the whole module will be repaired. Which means some pennies are to be saved by elimenating a few bolts.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's how it goes. Last year, I was supposed to fork over 1600€ for a new adblue assembly. Only the pump was shot. No possibility of acquiring a pump. Anywhere.

[mnementh]

Huh... he seemed to not shy away from being critical of Tesla's tech in that vid; or rather, did not shy from saying "VW did this way better here..." Yeah, not the same thing. We know that Tesla's drivetrain is not exactly "good for a million miles"; motor failure in the "S" series is a ongoing gripe among owners.

Still a worthwhile watch.

mnem
 

I always find it amusing to hear people say "OEM X did a better job of the powertrain" or "OEM Y did a better battery". No OEM designed a powertrain or a battery, they decided the specs and wrote the requirements documentation. ZF, Siemens, Bosch or whoever designed and manufactured the motor. LG, Samsung, XeroTech or whoever designed and manufactured the battery. In the funnier cases people are arguing about two devices that were both designed and manufactured by the same company.

McBryce.

Okies... since I am honestly woefully ignorant of this aspect of modern EVs... where exactly is the demarc between the motor design and the gearbox? It seems to me that the 3-bearing input shaft/motor design is def something that would fall in the "OEM" side of things... as well as specifying how the cooling circuit and the inverter are made modular/unitized...? All the stuff about getting rid of the oil bath, etc, would also seem to be a OEM decision?

Honestly, this whole design is eerily similar in concept to the integrated motor/ESC pods used by Parrot in the original AR drones, and some other offerings by DJI more than 10 years ago now. They even designed the pods such that downdraft air was drawn through the motors and then to the ESCs for cooling.

mnem
*tzzzzzzt*

[Cerebus]

Pretty sure he's right as far as the likelyhood of repair goes: it will never be repaired, the whole module will be repaired. Which means some pennies are to be saved by elimenating a few bolts.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's how it goes. Last year, I was supposed to fork over 1600€ for a new adblue assembly. Only the pump was shot. No possibility of acquiring a pump. Anywhere.

Yeah, but what happens to the unserviceable unit after the replacement goes in? I'm not saying that it doesn't go straight to scrap or recycling, but with things amenable to component level repair it's not beyond belief that they get fixed and become "service replacement" parts the same way as happens with engines. In the particular case of inverters, there's a high likelihood that the problem with a broken unit is just a blown IGBT module*, and that is surely an easy and economic component level repair, one that could be done as a "stock repair" even if one wasn't going to go in for more detailed and fiddly component level repairs.

Keysight only do board level repair of customer kit that's sent in nowadays. However, TiN and others have found refurbished boards sold as replacement parts by Keysight for the 3458A. If the part's valuable enough, and the stock fixes identifiable it makes sense. I'm sure that they don't refurbish all boards, only ones where the fault is an easily diagnosed stock fault and the value of the board is high enough to cover the cost of rework.

*The IGBT modules that I've seen in these kind of inverters are the ones that are beefy enough to have to be bolted in during original construction, not soldered, which makes it an even easier target for re-work.

[mnementh]

Seems to me this would be exactly the kind of "refurbishment" that certain shops have made into a secondary channels industry with automotive ECM/BCM/ABS modules, etc. The relationship seems to be "official-unofficial" in many cases; with dealerships buying from the larger such refurb shops and then slapping their own labels on them when genuine OEM part supply runs out.

Of course, in that case, the OEM does not seem to give even half a rat's ass about serviceability; anybody here who's ever tried to de-pot a ECM for fun or profit can surely recount some horror stories.

mnem
 

[Ice-Tea]

Pretty sure he's right as far as the likelyhood of repair goes: it will never be repaired, the whole module will be repaired. Which means some pennies are to be saved by elimenating a few bolts.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's how it goes. Last year, I was supposed to fork over 1600€ for a new adblue assembly. Only the pump was shot. No possibility of acquiring a pump. Anywhere.

Yeah, but what happens to the unserviceable unit after the replacement goes in? I'm not saying that it doesn't go straight to scrap or recycling, but with things amenable to component level repair it's not beyond belief that they get fixed and become "service replacement" parts the same way as happens with engines. In the particular case of inverters, there's a high likelihood that the problem with a broken unit is just a blown IGBT module*, and that is surely an easy and economic component level repair, one that could be done as a "stock repair" even if one wasn't going to go in for more detailed and fiddly component level repairs.

There's nothing "in" it for the manufacturer. He's presented with the choice "save a few bucks now" or "please the DIY/grey aftermarke crowd" later.

Accidently, it's obviously a sliding scale. And perhaps VW simply chose "your" route this time.

[ch_scr]

Pretty sure he's right as far as the likelyhood of repair goes: it will never be repaired, the whole module will be repaired. Which means some pennies are to be saved by elimenating a few bolts.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's how it goes. Last year, I was supposed to fork over 1600€ for a new adblue assembly. Only the pump was shot. No possibility of acquiring a pump. Anywhere.

Yeah, but what happens to the unserviceable unit after the replacement goes in? I'm not saying that it doesn't go straight to scrap or recycling, but with things amenable to component level repair it's not beyond belief that they get fixed and become "service replacement" parts the same way as happens with engines. In the particular case of inverters, there's a high likelihood that the problem with a broken unit is just a blown IGBT module*, and that is surely an easy and economic component level repair, one that could be done as a "stock repair" even if one wasn't going to go in for more detailed and fiddly component level repairs.

Keysight only do board level repair of customer kit that's sent in nowadays. However, TiN and others have found refurbished boards sold as replacement parts by Keysight for the 3458A. If the part's valuable enough, and the stock fixes identifiable it makes sense. I'm sure that they don't refurbish all boards, only ones where the fault is an easily diagnosed stock fault and the value of the board is high enough to cover the cost of rework.

*The IGBT modules that I've seen in these kind of inverters are the ones that are beefy enough to have to be bolted in during original construction, not soldered, which makes it an even easier target for re-work.

When I was an electrician trainee, the solar inverters we serviced occasionally were modular inside. We had a big box of replacement modules, and a list which of them to take with us, when going out on a service call for a particular unit type. Upon arrival, the solar inverter was opened, we called the hotline and they guided us through to select which module(s) to replace. After the repair, the failed modules were posted to the manufacturer whilst they posted us replacements for the box. What impressed me was that the system was set up in a way that needed minimal additional training for the on site worker and aside from the big box of modules not much else additionally needed in the shop. I guess they analyzed the faulty units, but I sadly never cared to check for rework on the replacements we put in.
Edit: I also remember they had some blinkenlights on almost all the PCBs to aid in fault finding.

[Ice-Tea]

Edit: I also remember they had some blinkenlights on almost all the PCBs to aid in fault finding.

I can assure you that by now they are gone.

[VK5RC]

The white and black gloss model paint has arrived for the Boonton button finishing test.

My reputation will soon be on the line. I know what you're thinking "What reputation?"

 

I am watching with interest, one of my biggest disappointments with 3D plastic printing is the difficulty in getting a high quality finish on more than one surface.
Rob
PS Currently playing around with a GoPro - that quality video out of such a small cube! - things change so quickly!

[factory]

: when the picture turns to B&W... I notice that I can make it go back to colour if I fast forward just a few seconds. Then I fast rewind a few seconds to go back to the part of the movie that was previously B&W and now... oh magic it's in coiour now !  So that means the tape itself is not the problem I guess.... must be the VCR doing something funny.

I am pretty sure it is false triggering on turning the color decoder on when you wiggle it that way. If you look at the color picture you attached, it is evident the colors are wrong and color interferrence can be seen in form of a mesh, also visible on top of the black frame bars.

I don't understand any of what you say, I don't kn,ow my VCR stuff 

But do I sense that you agree that the problem might that the tape is not guided and/tensionned properly ? After wigglijg it a bit using Fast forward/rewind, I had no more B&W ruin my viewing for the entire movie !   
So I guess the tape was not properly positioned on the drum, and wiggling it brought it back where it should be.
I guess when in playback mode, it's a bit loose and wanders about. Might also (?) explain another issue I am witnessing : very blurry/fuzzy picture, like it's way out of "focus", say. Also very unstable, it's moving up and down all the time, randomly, but incessantly.

I guess could be worse playing with the mechanical adjustments responsible for positioning and tensioning (is that a new word ? Firefox chokes on it...) the tape ? Don't don't how to do that, need to do some reading...

I did watch a few VCR repair/service videos on " 12votlvids " YT channel. Will watch his VCR vids again to refresh my memory....

The blurry/fuzzy picture is probably due to the limitations of the consumer/home VHS machines, if I remember correctly from the TV programme "Secret Life of Machines" you only got about half the quality of a live TV broadcast from a VHS tape, as only half the information (lines) are recorded, commercial video recorders must have been different.
Also older LCD TV's tend to make standard definition analogue content look even worse, even digital TV looked blocky & crap of the last dumpster find TV I had.



David

This post was "recorded on sticky tape & rust". 

Easy,----- "The secret Life of Machines" lied!--

Edit:Actually they didn't, you just "got the bull by the horns!"
Even fast forwarding through the first bit, that's about 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back ----AAaaarrrrgggghhh!

Home VCRs recorded all the lines, but the reason for a reduction in quality was mainly that the video bandwidth was reduced due to some other compromises in the design.

I also found that pre-recorded tapes varied quite a lot in picture quality, ---"off air" tapes, much less!

When we first got a VCR, I was watching a football game, (Australian Rules Football, or Cricket on a nice sunny day are good "standards" to go by) so simply recorded some of that, so, whilst the "footy" was on, I could switch back & forth.

The taped version was definitely not as high in resolution, but was quite acceptable.

Sorry you didn't like that programme, but it was at least part to blame for getting me interested in electronics & taking things apart when I was younger.
I guess research for this series & other programmes was more difficult in the late 80s & early 90s, when you had to use books & speak to people to get the information needed.

We still have five VCRs in various states of disrepair here, they all got well used years ago, the first one (Toshiba) I never did get the hang of setting the timer for same day recordings, it always went wrong. 
We never had any of the later S-VHS machines though, no idea how much better the picture was from those.

David

[Cerebus]

Pretty sure he's right as far as the likelyhood of repair goes: it will never be repaired, the whole module will be repaired. Which means some pennies are to be saved by elimenating a few bolts.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's how it goes. Last year, I was supposed to fork over 1600€ for a new adblue assembly. Only the pump was shot. No possibility of acquiring a pump. Anywhere.

Yeah, but what happens to the unserviceable unit after the replacement goes in? I'm not saying that it doesn't go straight to scrap or recycling, but with things amenable to component level repair it's not beyond belief that they get fixed and become "service replacement" parts the same way as happens with engines. In the particular case of inverters, there's a high likelihood that the problem with a broken unit is just a blown IGBT module*, and that is surely an easy and economic component level repair, one that could be done as a "stock repair" even if one wasn't going to go in for more detailed and fiddly component level repairs.

There's nothing "in" it for the manufacturer. He's presented with the choice "save a few bucks now" or "please the DIY/grey aftermarke crowd" later.

Accidently, it's obviously a sliding scale. And perhaps VW simply chose "your" route this time.

Perhaps you haven't come across the "service replacement" parts or they go under a different name where you are. These are official manufacturer spares that are refurbished parts, so technically secondhand, but that come with the same warranty etc. that strictly new parts do. Only for major components, and only for things that can be refurbished to factory standard. Service replacement engines are the example that I have come across personally. Cheaper than the wholly new service part, perhaps 70%, but with even lower costs to the manufacturer, so bigger profit overall. So they aren't saving a few bucks, they're making more profit, and possibly getting a sale that they might not at the wholly new part price.

[Robert763]

The VW inverter shown in the video was clearly designed to be repaired. Internally it contains a number of PCBs and modules. The interconnects are all re-usable. One power resistor had insulated 1/4" blades and insulated push-on crimps. This would be a service exchange module at dealer level and then go to a specialist sub-contractor to be repaired at an internal module level.
He actually showed the board from a Tesla for comparison and it clearly was not desigined to be repaired. One huge PCB and the discharge resistor was several SMDs in series/parallel.

[factory]

Alright, since we’ve all been dragged kicking and screaming into digital analogue video, here’s a Tek WFM.  NTSC for those that didn’t surmise it from the 7.5 IRE mark and other helpful hints on the graticule.  I have zero desire to look at the RF coming off the head drum and chase it through the switcher and demod and signal processing on the crappy Panasonic VHS I’ve got sitting in a shelf somewhere.   NO!  Just NO!

Who wants to do dropframe timecode calculations longhand with a pencil and paper?  Anyone?  No takers?  I thought not.

There was quite a few Tek waveform monitors & vector-scopes in the PP auction last year, I didn't bid on any of them, but was thinking maybe I should have bid on one of them.


In my collection I do have a HP 191A waveform scope, might take a while to figure out the switch wafers needed to replace the missing switch, also I have no idea what the "social media" switch is for. 


David

[Robert763]

Following on from Cerebus's post, a common use of "service exchange" refurbished car parts is warranty repairs. This saves the manufacturer  lot. Service exchange alterntors and starter motors used to be very common.

[Robert763]

Made an offer on a digital meter earlier and it got accepted.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384656190755
I don't need to measure the PH of meat. I didn't even know it was a "thing".  For £10 shipped I'll at least get a 16x2 VFD display module and a Mean Well 12V 1.5A wall wart.
But it is much more likely I'll re-purpose it into a geiger counter if a 2" pancake tube will fit in the front.

[Cerebus]

Service exchange alterntors and starter motors used to be very common.

Doh! Don't know how I managed to forget about those when I was scrabbling to think of examples.

[factory]

The second parcel was the HP 432B I've been waiting for, here are a couple of pics, testing will have to wait till the weekend.

David

I finally opened the 432C with the Panaplex display that I mentioned last week.  It was showing NOTHING on the display; then I took the side panel off and started poking about and noticed that the display module's edge connectors seemed very short, and far from fully seated in the meter connectors.  Took it apart and pulled it out of its housing then plugged it in and lo and behold, it lights up.  The first issue is that the uppermost segment of the first full digit doesn't light.


Similar to the nixie display in the other meter, it's three boards in a 'U' shape.




However, unlike the nixie meter it appears that this version can be unfolded a bit and still work - the upper board connects to the bottom through a ribbon cable at the side rather than through the front display board as is the case with the nixie version.  This should at least make troubleshooting a bit easier.  (Need to confirm continuity of that ribbon cable, too - looks a bit on the ragged side.)


My hope is that it's something simple like a bad connection at the interface between the display board and the bottom driver board (those little wire loop things don't seem to be particularly robust), and not a dead driver chip or bad Panaplex tube.


iPhone pics for now; will take better ones with the DSLR once I actually start seriously troubleshooting it.

-Pat

If it has three separate DM8880N drivers, then I suspect one of those, other people have had them fail on the radio forum. Hopefully there is an equivalent that isn't made my National Semiconductor and is easy to find, but I doubt it.

If it's any use I do have a diagram for a Data-tech DPM (not quite the same) if it helps, would need scanning though, I have the DPM somewhere too.
And looking at your pics, the top PCB still has holes for the tubes of the older version, is it also made by Gralex?

David

[mansaxel]

We never had any of the later S-VHS machines though, no idea how much better the picture was from those.

"Barely tolerable" was my verdict.  I once did a school project, video art. It was shot on Betacam, editedmassacred in the edit suite, on Betacam and then downmixed to S-VHS for presentation. The quality on S-VHS was horrible compared to what came off the Betacam player, but still way above standard VHS.

[mansaxel]

In my collection I do have a HP 191A waveform scope

Cool. I've never seen hp waveform/vector scopes. Here, it always was Tek or Philips. Today, we've got some Harris, and the new SMPTE 2110 compatible Tek scopes. Which basically is "tcpdump" with a parser putting up a scope pic.