Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[m k]

The 7805 is rated for at least 1A output. Some versions are good for 1.5A. The 78M05 is only rated at 500mA output.
If your application is low power there should be no issue using a 78M05

I saw some of those but then I also felt that their differences were possibly artificial.
Like different max. input voltages for TO-220 types and same output currents for SMD and TO-220 types.
Something like less testing, more income.

The device is Fluke 8505A and it's rated 1,5A when full loaded.

[mansaxel]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

The electrical locomotives from before semiconductor control became feasible used contactors to connect secondary winding taps from the main transformer to the traction motors.  In ASEA (that merged with Brown Boveri to become ABB, but the railway part is Bombardier now) locomotives the contactors were controlled with pressurised air, that in turn was controlled with solenoid valves. The D series locomotives had either 18 or 32 contactors, one per speed control step. This occupied about 2m² of frame space and made
a hell of a racket. I remember trying a educational setup of the regulation machinery at the railway mechanic school a long time ago.

The racket was, however, dwarfed by the main HV switch, which is a 60 cm long device on the roof, also air controlled, responsible for breaking the 15KV catenary feed. Very Noisy.

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

[mnementh]

Urrrrrggghh... Woke up to a freezing cold house... at first, thought another failed thermostat, so serviced the one in the dining room for crusty battery terminals... Still no joy.

Go down to the basement, see all 3 zones showing a call for heat and pilot out. Yup, you guessed it... Failed thermocouple.

   FML...

So I replaced the TC, and... nothing. Pilot still wouldn't stay lit. Remove it, test the solenoid coil... ~.5Ω. Awesome. Test the new TC... 3mV after 90 seconds; should be 30-40mV for a new one.

Of course, if there's a defective part in stock within 3 counties, I will be the PSB who gets it...

Get in the car, go back to Homeowner Hell, trade out the TC for another (test it in the car with a BIC lighter before I leave); go install it and... the gas tube for the pilot breaks off at the base. I know they are prone to do this from decades living out in the country with space heaters; I deliberately handle it as little and as carefully as possible. But doing the job a second time was just enough handling to be too much and... *ka-toink!*



So I dismantle the whole mess, drill out the special fitting so I can get a fresh cut on the tubing and... what should have been a 30 minute fix is now over 2.5 hours.

Oy-fucking vey.

Plus another ~1 hour for the boiler/reservoir to come up to temp and actually start heating the house again.

mnem

[Specmaster]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

That's a familiar sound, reminds of the London Underground trains when you can hear the relays clicking in and out the various motor tappings as the trains speed up and also slow to a halt.

[Saskia]

Urrrrrggghh... Woke up to a freezing cold house... at first, thought another failed thermostat, so serviced the one in the dining room for crusty battery terminals... Still no joy.

Go down to the basement, see all 3 zones showing a call for heat and pilot out. Yup, you guessed it... Failed thermocouple.

   FML...

So I replaced the TC, and... nothing. Pilot still wouldn't stay lit. Remove it, test the solenoid coil... ~.5Ω. Awesome. Test the new TC... 3mV after 90 seconds; should be 30-40mV for a new one.

Of course, if there's a defective part in stock within 3 counties, I will be the PSB who gets it...

Get in the car, go back to Homeowner Hell, trade out the TC for another (test it in the car with a BIC lighter before I leave); go install it and... the gas tube for the pilot breaks off at the base. I know they are prone to do this from decades living out in the country with space heaters; I deliberately handle it as little and as carefully as possible. But doing the job a second time was just enough handling to be too much and... *ka-toink!*



So I dismantle the whole mess, drill out the special fitting so I can get a fresh cut on the tubing and... what should have been a 30 minute fix is now over 2.5 hours.

Oy-fucking vey.

Plus another ~1 hour for the boiler/reservoir to come up to temp and actually start heating the house again.

mnem

at least you did not play out a 5 day drama comparable to the sinking of the Musashi or the breaking of a bloody antenna connector.
May the warmth be with you.

[mansaxel]

what should have been a 30 minute fix is now over 2.5 hours.

We're hovering around -5 Science Degrees here. I just tried to get a look into software version of the geothermal pump controller. No luck. Did, however, get to set the RTC on it. Probably should clean filters a bit and do some more TLC.  I'll also try to get some kind of connection to the pump for data extraction and possibly remote control.  There are ready-made solutions that make the pump have a web server, and also to post and listen to MQTT messages. Naturally; if I'm buying this, it'll be behind a quite aggressive firewall.

[factory]

Update on the HP 5340A.

Replacement capacitors assembled & fitted.



All low voltages checked & verified as good. I left the Sangamo caps as they tested OK and didn't have crust underneath or that fishy smell, all the failed caps were Sprague, two of which were shorted.


It now has at least two other problems, first one is the display supply (+175V) is low & the displays dim or barely lit at a result. It's below the 135V-ish that the book states most voltmeters will display, as no smoothing cap is used.
The second problem, the displays are mostly stuck on 7s in self check mode, need to fix problem one first.


David

[mansaxel]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

That's a familiar sound, reminds of the London Underground trains when you can hear the relays clicking in and out the various motor tappings as the trains speed up and also slow to a halt.

Here, there is a PWM whine in our Tunnelbana trains, at least the newer ones.

Very detailed on the buildout:   (english subs are manually made and very good.)

[mnementh]

...at least you did not play out a 5 day drama comparable to the sinking of the Musashi or the breaking of a bloody antenna connector. May the warmth be with you.

Yes, thankfully it was all simple mechanical failure; not a byte of code in any of it. 

BTW, the Musashi was a sister ship to the IJN Yamato; which survived an atomic bomb test, and then it took similar barrage of conventional arms to sink her after that.

mnem
*toddles off to operate on a ingrown toe*

[mnementh]

what should have been a 30 minute fix is now over 2.5 hours.

We're hovering around -5 Science Degrees here. I just tried to get a look into software version of the geothermal pump controller. No luck. Did, however, get to set the RTC on it. Probably should clean filters a bit and do some more TLC.  I'll also try to get some kind of connection to the pump for data extraction and possibly remote control.  There are ready-made solutions that make the pump have a web server, and also to post and listen to MQTT messages. Naturally; if I'm buying this, it'll be behind a quite aggressive firewall.

Oh, if I were trying to fix software for a no heat condition, I'd be fucked. Stiff fingers, cold arse, frustration and SWMBO eyeballin' me while I try to figure it out... nope.

Credit card and hired guns be the best tool for dat job. 

mnem
*toasting his dwagon toes on the radiator*

[25 CPS]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

That's a familiar sound, reminds of the London Underground trains when you can hear the relays clicking in and out the various motor tappings as the trains speed up and also slow to a halt.

Pretty much every train with rheostatic control or a transformer tap changer made similar sounds.  It's actually useful as a troubleshooting tool if something isn't working right and you can hear the absence of a contactor closing during the acceleration or braking sequence, it lets you zero in on what part of the control package to start checking out first very quickly.

My personal favourites were the original subway cars in Montreal.  If you looked at the floor or closed your eyes and listened to the controller going thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka-thunka as the rubber tyre sound picked up, you'd swear the train was moving at a million miles an hour and then look out the window and see it's barely picked up at all.  Whoever built the equipment on those (I want to say Jeumont-Schneider but I'm not sure; the equipment for the second order of trains I think was a Jeumont design built locally by Canron) put a lot of steps in the acceleration phase to smooth it out which is why you'd hear so many heavy contactors slam shut well before any speed had built up.

There's been a debate on and off in railway museum circles about what kind of experience is needed for the electrical side of things and I've always argued that rail-specific experience isn't necessary.  There's nothing railway-unique about these controllers other than they ride around on the underside of a train, when really, you're looking at industrial motor control that in some ways is simpler than a lot of factory automation that was built with the same technology and that a 1940s industrial electrician would be fine.  It's been a mixed reaction to that position.  Truthfully, these are volunteer organizations, so it's not like you can pick and choose who you hire like it's a business hiring someone.  You take whatever volunteer experience is available.  Or not, as one place is famous for, but it's their loss.

[0culus]

Got it home in one piece, and me in one piece. 

[cyclin_al]

"C" you're 100% spot on here, call me cynical if you like, but the insurance / pay based system that exists in the USA and maybe over here soon unless we can stop it. Makes me really wonder if all of these so-called emergencies and admittances aren't a ploy to extract every last penny, or cent that they can from people because they are, like it or not, a profit oriented business.

Oh, overbilling, and loading everything but the kitchen sink onto hospital bills is a regular source of horror stories from the US. The idea of being as rapaciously capitalistic as possible in a health care setting is just a foreign idea to us Brits; we're usually more likely to be worried about the opposite, something going untreated/undertreated to save a little scarce NHS money (fortunately this is truly rare).

I don't think we'll ever see US style, put your hand in your pocket,  privatisation here - it's politically untenable. What we are seeing is NHS work being contracted out to "for profit" healthcare service providers. We don't notice it because we don't directly pay, the NHS does the paying on our behalf.

Yes, that process has been going in the background hoping that the public don't notice it and to be fair, very few people are aware of it, because when you go to one of these out sourced venues, they do a good job of disguising it by plastering the NHS logo everywhere and even wear NHS uniforms. SWMBO and MIL have both had operations in a BUPA hospital but were in wards with NHS stuck everywhere, SWMBO also attends special ear clinic, run by "Provide" but again under the guise of NHS.

I don't share your optimism, there are already high level talks with US health providers going on, but I do agree that there won't be any personal dipping into pockets for treatment at least for some time to come, but I can corners being cut as time goes on, and also the stagnation of Govt money for health care providers which will slowly fuel the rise of health insurance via the back door.

We are on that dangerous slippery slope here in the GWN.  Took SWMBO to a specialty medical clinic in Montreal on the 22nd.  The fee was close to $600, but SWMBO did not even check beforehand with the insurance company.  No idea if it will be covered or not.    Today, I learned that it took a couple of weeks to get the appointment because it was private.  The same clinic offers the exact same service for free in the public system, except the wait time is several years.  The particular need is time-sensitive, so waiting was not really an option.

The system in the GWN is supposed to be equal and fair to all, but that is not the reality...

[tautech]

Got it home in one piece, and me in one piece. 

Box of Cal standards too ?

[cyclin_al]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

Let me work on it.  I have a contactor in a project that is almost finished (and was almost finished last week, and was almost finished last month... and was almost finished a year ago).

Short version of the story:

I have rebuilt a control box of a spa (hot tub) using a contactor, relay and electro-mechanical switches even including bi-metalic strips.

The old box was 120V only with a 1.2kW heater element and safety elements were bypassed:


The new version is 120V for pump and controls and 240V 4.4 kW heater element with safety elements replaced:

The only thing left is to add labelling:



Long verson of the story:
The 8060A DMM was used in this project.  You can see the RM564 in one of the photos; this Spa needs to be completed (among other things) before I can work on the RM564.

SWMBO found a cheap used Spa.  It was actually fairly priced and a suitable type of spa for our property.  Since I was already installing a free* used pool, adding this should not be a big deal (tm).
In reality, it has been a whole project unto itself.
Unfortunately, it became linked with building a deck during a lumber shortage.
Unfortunately, Murphy found plenty of opportunity.
 - need to replace a cracked drain plug
 - I now know where water is most likely to WILL freeze in the pipes
 - it needed 3 orders from DigiKey to get all the correct parts (with extras to get minimum orders for free shipping  )
SWMBO has also stated that it is required to have an alternate means of physical cleanliness (the spa) while I am doing renovations of the bathroom.
Renovations of the bathroom are required due to hard corrosive water corroding the plumbing fixtures; currently baths are prohibited and showers are worrisome (I have my work office directly below in the basement  )

[0culus]

Got it home in one piece, and me in one piece. 

Box of Cal standards too ?

Had those already. 

[Brumby]

what should have been a 30 minute fix is now over 2.5 hours.

We've all had that experience.

More than once, too.

[TERRA Operative]

Update on the HP 5340A.

Replacement capacitors assembled & fitted.






All low voltages checked & verified as good. I left the Sangamo caps as they tested OK and didn't have crust underneath or that fishy smell, all the failed caps were Sprague, two of which were shorted.


It now has at least two other problems, first one is the display supply (+175V) is low & the displays dim or barely lit at a result. It's below the 135V-ish that the book states most voltmeters will display, as no smoothing cap is used.
The second problem, the displays are mostly stuck on 7s in self check mode, need to fix problem one first.


David

Ooh, I should get back onto fixing mine, I have a nixie version (actually two of them, and a third that was firmly a parts unit that got stripped down).

I just replaced those PSU caps with new Japanese ones of the same form factor, the original ones were so old and dried out that some sounded like they were full of dirt!

I've made reproduction OCXO Option PSU boards ready to populate one when I get to it, as I came across the needed transformer in the parts unit. Still have to source the actual OCXO though.


I'm definitely looking forward to seeing if the 18GHz inputs have been blown or not.... Hopefully I can cobble a fully working unit from the parts I have on hand..
I'd love to get my hands on the upgraded input section that was reportedly much more resilient, but that seems practically unobtanium unless you luck across it somehow.

[mansaxel]

There's been a debate on and off in railway museum circles about what kind of experience is needed for the electrical side of things and I've always argued that rail-specific experience isn't necessary.

Competence is required. That's about it. There's an awful lot of current involved, and at times some pretty impressive voltages (low impedance sourced..)  But, it was built using pretty basic stuff, because that worked and could be made to continue working.

Now, there are finer details in the engineering implementation that might be non-obvious to the layman, but to the electric professional reading the technical docs on the loco they're not incomprehensible.

If you compare it with the intricate craftsmanship of running and maintaining a steam engine, not only is the work much less, it is much more manageable in terms of driving and servicing.

https://youtu.be/7ScBfNG0SiU

[tautech]

Got it home in one piece, and me in one piece. 

Box of Cal standards too ?

Had those already. 

Anyway, your new to you VNA seemed to be old news on svna@groups.io when I dropped the link to your post to buddy hendorog.....he already knew about it ! 

[Saskia]

...at least you did not play out a 5 day drama comparable to the sinking of the Musashi or the breaking of a bloody antenna connector. May the warmth be with you.

Yes, thankfully it was all simple mechanical failure; not a byte of code in any of it. 

BTW, the Musashi was a sister ship to the IJN Yamato; which survived an atomic bomb test, and then it took similar barrage of conventional arms to sink her after that.

mnem
*toddles off to operate on a ingrown toe*

Pardon my ignorance, but was the Yamato not sunk on its way to Okinawa ? Trinity was on July 16, the Yamato was sunk in April and could not participate in the able or castle test series ?

[Cubdriver]

...at least you did not play out a 5 day drama comparable to the sinking of the Musashi or the breaking of a bloody antenna connector. May the warmth be with you.

Yes, thankfully it was all simple mechanical failure; not a byte of code in any of it. 

BTW, the Musashi was a sister ship to the IJN Yamato; which survived an atomic bomb test, and then it took similar barrage of conventional arms to sink her after that.

mnem
*toddles off to operate on a ingrown toe*

Pardon my ignorance, but was the Yamato not sunk on its way to Okinawa ? Trinity was on July 16, the Yamato was sunk in April and could not participate in the able or castle test series ?

Yup.  Operation Ten-Go.  We basically ran a bomb and torpedo delivery train on her, though even the men who crewed her knew it was basically a suicide mission when they set out - they had no air cover.  And despite all of her AA armament, it seems that more US planes were taken down by her magazine exploding as she sunk than by her guns.



-Pat

Edit to add - I think Mnementh was probably thinking of the USS Nevada - she was painted red for operation Crossroads and was intended to be the primary target ship, but the aerial drop missed.
From the WIKI page:
Post-war
Nevada, then with her final commanding officer, Cecil C. Adell (28 October 1945 – 1 July 1946),[37] returned to Pearl Harbor after a brief stint of occupation duty in Tokyo Bay. Nevada was surveyed and, at 32⅓ years old, was deemed too old to be kept in the post-war fleet.[5][57] As a result, she was assigned to be a target ship in the first Bikini atomic experiments (Operation Crossroads) of July 1946.[4] The experiment consisted of detonating two atomic bombs to test their effectiveness against ships.[88] Nevada was the bombardier's target for the first test, codenamed 'Able', which used an air-dropped weapon. To help distinguish the target from surrounding vessels, Nevada was painted a reddish-orange. However, even with the high-visibility color scheme, the bomb fell about 1,700 yd (1,600 m) off-target, exploding above the attack transport Gilliam instead.[89] Due in part to the miss, Nevada survived. The ship also remained afloat after the second test—'Baker', a detonation some 90 ft (27 m) below the surface of the water—but was damaged and extremely radioactive from the spray.[57] Nevada was later towed to Pearl Harbor and decommissioned on 29 August 1946.[4]

After she was thoroughly examined, Iowa and two other vessels used Nevada as a practice gunnery target 65 miles southwest of Pearl Harbor on 31 July 1948.[5][72][n] The ships did not sink Nevada, so she was given a coup de grâce with an aerial torpedo hit amidships.[90][5]

[mansaxel]

...at least you did not play out a 5 day drama comparable to the sinking of the Musashi or the breaking of a bloody antenna connector. May the warmth be with you.

Yes, thankfully it was all simple mechanical failure; not a byte of code in any of it. 

BTW, the Musashi was a sister ship to the IJN Yamato; which survived an atomic bomb test, and then it took similar barrage of conventional arms to sink her after that.

mnem
*toddles off to operate on a ingrown toe*

Pardon my ignorance, but was the Yamato not sunk on its way to Okinawa ? Trinity was on July 16, the Yamato was sunk in April and could not participate in the able or castle test series ?

Both Yamato and Musashi were sunk in action:

During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Musashi was sunk by an estimated 19 torpedo and 17 bomb hits from American carrier-based aircraft on 24 October 1944.

...on 7 April 1945 she was sunk by American carrier-based bombers and torpedo bombers with the loss of most of her crew.

The third hull, Shinano, was never completed as battleship, but converted to an aircraft carrier. That did not go well either:

...was torpedoed ten days after her commissioning in November 1944 by the submarine USS Archerfish

The only nuclear test carried out during the war was Trinity and that was in the US desert. No battleships present.

The post-war tests in the Pacific incorporated battleships, some of them captured ones, but no Yamato-class ships were present, since they were all sunk by then.

[Neper]

Here, there is a PWM whine in our Tunnelbana trains, at least the newer ones.

There's worse than that. In the late 90s, Siemens built a prototype for the Cologne tramway/light rail system that didn't whine but made an awful hissing sound. Thankfully, it kicked itself out of the competition by a spectacular brake failure.

[mansaxel]

Here, there is a PWM whine in our Tunnelbana trains, at least the newer ones.

There's worse than that. In the late 90s, Siemens built a prototype for the Cologne tramway/light rail system that didn't whine but made an awful hissing sound. Thankfully, it kicked itself out of the competition by a spectacular brake failure.

Oh, yes. I've got a foil-hat story involving Tunnelbanan and traction control: Some 15 years ago, I (as I do now) commuted to work using the Tunnelbana, and one fine afternoon, as I was on my way home, I plopped down on the seat in a C20 train. Next to me sat a fidgeting man, who, as I was pulling my computer out of my backpack to continue on my train of thought, immediately sprung up from his seat with the words "There's dangerous radiation in those, can't sit there!" and moved away. Below us were the traction motors and the control circuitry...

As the new signalling system was commissioned a few years earlier, the Siemens signal box computer kept crashing. It was fine in tests, but as soon as they tried in production traffic, it went bellyup. The effects of having loaded trains and drivers trying to keep a schedule were such so as to create enough EMC problems that the computer crashed. They fixed this by improving the EMC protection of the signal box, not by improving the trains.

QED.