Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mansaxel]

Interesting source for tools in the US:

http://www.pkneuses.com/www.pkneuses.com/tools.htm

I have not seen the relay/switch adjusting tools elsewhere!

Is it bad that my internal spelling checker is trying to turn that domain name into "pink anuses"? 

That's a new take.   

What I'm wondering is: Who the hell builds so much copper plant that it is a viable business to sell tooling for it? All telco buildout I've seen the last 10 years here has been uniquely fiber. (and cowboy style build at that). There's some LAN cabling being done but that's not the place for relays.

Edit: On that subject: I'm picking up a 3552A tomorrow

[Cerebus]

Well, telecoms wasn't the only place where the relay was king. A lot of pre-70s/80s industrial automation was done with relays. There are probably whole factories still turning out the same old products and materials that they have been for the last 50-80 years with relay controls clicking away inside huge control cabinets. Appropriately designed relay logic can be amazingly reliable.

[Cubdriver]

RE: chamfer vs bevel.

Always understood what it meant and never had an issue with either word. I'm surprised that "chamfer" is almost unknown and apparently in some circles (the military) a dirty word. 

Likewise, even more so when it sounds like one of those circles was people working with mechanical drawings.  I’ve known what a chamfer is since I was a kid.  Quite surprising.

-Pat

[Specmaster]

Now now Spec, let's not pick at people for their approach to the repair/restore question. It's personal preference, there's no more to be said.

I rarely clean old labels off, or even dirt unless it's loose or icky. I prefer to see the history of the instrument; as long as it's fully functional the rest is just "character" and "history" to me. I never criticise or poke at people that like to make their instruments "as new", it's their preference, their instrument, and their business, not mine.

There's room for every approach, imo

No, the point I was making was a serious one, point I was trying to make was, that if it is already causing a massive problem to resolve the current socket, if Vince was able to find another new (or NOS) to replace the old one, and once restored it was also to be a functional bit of TE, then he would be looking at the same issue later after just a few insertions of his output lead, whereas the BNC socket would provide a functional and long-lasting bit of kit.

It is to my mind, what is the intended end use of the finished item, a museum piece in a collection, a working piece on his test bench, so if its the former then I agree, originality is key. In no way was I getting picky, just attempting badly it seems at trying to help Vince decide which was the greater priority.

[Specmaster]

Well, telecoms wasn't the only place where the relay was king. A lot of pre-70s/80s industrial automation was done with relays. There are probably whole factories still turning out the same old products and materials that they have been for the last 50-80 years with relay controls clicking away inside huge control cabinets. Appropriately designed relay logic can be amazingly reliable.

To true, I remember when I first got into technical sales with Crabtree Electrical some 40 odd years ago, I was on the industrial controls team, and when Belling Electrics had their factory in Southbury Road, Ponders End, Enfield, they cabinets all over that factory stuffed full of Crabtree T6 relays that chunked and clicked away 24 hours a day with no problems whatsoever, controlling their automation.

[mnementh]

You don't squeeze the two halves together onto a centre pin etc as this would not provide the grip and contact pressure that you're after, you do this gently with nothing in the middle. You need the two sections to make contact with the centre pin of the inserted plug, so be bending them so that the gap is smaller than the pin , means that inserting the plug, the pin scrapes along the "tube" contact and slightly forces it apart to grip the pin. As has already been said, these sockets were only ever intended to be fit for about 25 insertions.

And as for the BNC not being period correct, my answer to that is, what are you restoring it for? A/ to look at or B/ to make a functional piece of equipment again?

Hmm... you seem very upset ?! 

I understand you don't have the same point of view than I do, I take note, but it's my TE so I do as I please ! 

To answer your question, I am after both originality and functionality, when possible.

It seems possible here, why would it not. It's not like I was going to insert / pull a cable into that socket 20 times a day every day of every year for the next 30 years, is it ? No it's not... 

25 cycles is ridiculous, how cold Metrix possibly sell their product if that were the case.. after one week all their customers would ask for their money back and the company would have gone south immediately. I think you are dramatizing here... 

This 25 cycles probably refers to the crappy plugs used today for TV purposes, not the ones they used back then for expensive TE people had to rely on for their work.

Tell you what. I will get that BNC adapter, report if it works or not. If it does, this alone proves you wrong, unless you want to pretend that this instrument / socket has seen less than 25 cycles since new. 

Then I will perform 25 mating cycles and report. If the socket is completely destroyed, physically broken and no signal passes any more, you get a cookie. but if it still works after 25 cycles, you send me a whole packet of cookies. Hell I am even willing to try my chance and push it way beyond its rating, and do 50 or 200 cycles, even 500.

At any rate I don't see the urge of mutilating this poor generator with a BNC socket, without having even tried to see how it does with a proper BNC adapter and a some pliers action on the split tube. If it does not work well then we can always retrofit a BNC socket if need be. Don't see the urge, unless you have a personal problem with the original socket.. but I don't.
You are free to mutilate your old TE as much as you like, but please allow me the right to proceed as I please with my own TE ? 

Let's see who will get the cookies...

oi, Vince... No need to get so aggro here.

Spec was talking about the specification for that design of connector as presented by whatever standards body ratified it as a standard connector, not how one manufacturer might have modified the connector (or just decided to use it as-is and take their chances) for use on a test instrument. Any tone of annoyance from him was pretty clearly aimed at the manufacturer for that questionable choice, not at you for wanting to keep it original.

Under any circumstances, the horror show you already regaled us with over the colossal fail of that crusty-ass connector does tend to validate the general opinion of much more experienced engineers in here that primarily due to its design, the Belling-Lee connector is only slightly better than twisting together two rusty coathangers.

If you choose to keep a known-inferior connector in service to preserve the "period" appearance of a piece of TE, it is obviously your choice. But just as obviously, any grief you incur as a result thereafter is your fault, not that of the connector or those who tried to warn you.   

mnem
 

[Vince]

Now now Spec, let's not pick at people for their approach to the repair/restore question. It's personal preference, there's no more to be said.

I rarely clean old labels off, or even dirt unless it's loose or icky. I prefer to see the history of the instrument; as long as it's fully functional the rest is just "character" and "history" to me. I never criticise or poke at people that like to make their instruments "as new", it's their preference, their instrument, and their business, not mine.

There's room for every approach, imo

No, the point I was making was a serious one, point I was trying to make was, that if it is already causing a massive problem to resolve the current socket, if Vince was able to find another new (or NOS) to replace the old one, and once restored it was also to be a functional bit of TE, then he would be looking at the same issue later after just a few insertions of his output lead, whereas the BNC socket would provide a functional and long-lasting bit of kit.

It is to my mind, what is the intended end use of the finished item, a museum piece in a collection, a working piece on his test bench, so if its the former then I agree, originality is key. In no way was I getting picky, just attempting badly it seems at trying to help Vince decide which was the greater priority.

No worries Spec 

I will say it again : I don't want to replace it IF I don't have to. For now, now that I have cleaned it, it works fine, so no need to replace something that works.
If and when this socket starts giving me troubles that can't be fixed, then well I can always replace it with a BNC socket when that time comes. For now there is no need to.

As for the goal, it's to be both a museum piece AND a functional piece of TE at the same time, like all my vintage TE in general. Having old stuff that does not work is pointless to me... unless I decided it would be a parts unit, of course.
So if I have one day to resort to sticking a BNC socket in there to get it working, I will... but for now, there is no need to, works fine as it is.

As the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it ! 

[mnementh]

The danger seems to lie in attempting to communicate with people that are less well-read than oneself. If you use a word they don't know, they assume you are either making it up or trying to sound superior.   

I'm reminded of the Bill Hicks skit that includes the phrase "Well lookie here, looks like we got ourselves a reader!". It seems that there has always been a class of people that takes it as personal insult if you've ever made the effort that they eschewed to make yourself a better and more capable individual. Pride (except at a job well done) might be a sin in certain philosophies, but acceptance of pride in wilful ignorance is a force that can drag whole societies into the mud.

The cure for stupidity is Darwin. The cure for  ignorance is curiosity.

mnem
Willful ignorance... Is a crime against humanity.

[Vince]

You don't squeeze the two halves together onto a centre pin etc as this would not provide the grip and contact pressure that you're after, you do this gently with nothing in the middle. You need the two sections to make contact with the centre pin of the inserted plug, so be bending them so that the gap is smaller than the pin , means that inserting the plug, the pin scrapes along the "tube" contact and slightly forces it apart to grip the pin. As has already been said, these sockets were only ever intended to be fit for about 25 insertions.

And as for the BNC not being period correct, my answer to that is, what are you restoring it for? A/ to look at or B/ to make a functional piece of equipment again?

Hmm... you seem very upset ?! 

I understand you don't have the same point of view than I do, I take note, but it's my TE so I do as I please ! 

To answer your question, I am after both originality and functionality, when possible.

It seems possible here, why would it not. It's not like I was going to insert / pull a cable into that socket 20 times a day every day of every year for the next 30 years, is it ? No it's not... 

25 cycles is ridiculous, how cold Metrix possibly sell their product if that were the case.. after one week all their customers would ask for their money back and the company would have gone south immediately. I think you are dramatizing here... 

This 25 cycles probably refers to the crappy plugs used today for TV purposes, not the ones they used back then for expensive TE people had to rely on for their work.

Tell you what. I will get that BNC adapter, report if it works or not. If it does, this alone proves you wrong, unless you want to pretend that this instrument / socket has seen less than 25 cycles since new. 

Then I will perform 25 mating cycles and report. If the socket is completely destroyed, physically broken and no signal passes any more, you get a cookie. but if it still works after 25 cycles, you send me a whole packet of cookies. Hell I am even willing to try my chance and push it way beyond its rating, and do 50 or 200 cycles, even 500.

At any rate I don't see the urge of mutilating this poor generator with a BNC socket, without having even tried to see how it does with a proper BNC adapter and a some pliers action on the split tube. If it does not work well then we can always retrofit a BNC socket if need be. Don't see the urge, unless you have a personal problem with the original socket.. but I don't.
You are free to mutilate your old TE as much as you like, but please allow me the right to proceed as I please with my own TE ? 

Let's see who will get the cookies...

oi, Vince... No need to get so aggro here.

Spec was talking about the specification for that design of connector as presented by whatever standards body ratified it as a standard connector, not how one manufacturer might have modified the connector (or just decided to use it as-is and take their chances) for use on a test instrument. Any tone of annoyance from him was pretty clearly aimed at the manufacturer for that questionable choice, not at you for wanting to keep it original.

Under any circumstances, the horror show you already regaled us with over the colossal fail of that crusty-ass connector does tend to validate the general opinion of much more experienced engineers in here that primarily due to its design, the Belling-Lee connector is only slightly better than twisting together two rusty coathangers.

If you choose to keep a known-inferior connector in service to preserve the "period" appearance of a piece of TE, it is obviously your choice. But just as obviously, any grief you incur as a result thereafter is your fault, not that of the connector or those who tried to warn you.   

mnem
 

Sometimes I wonder if people read what I say before replying ?!   

I will leave at that, it's going in circles now. Think what you want, I can't and won't stop you.

As for me all I care about now is cooking the kilogram of huge langoustines I just bought. It's not often I can get really big ones.

I thought sticking to TE would be enough to stay out of trouble... but seems that no, even a freaking connector is enough to start a fire.
I don't know what to do any more... 

No, don't even reply... well you can but I won't even read it nor reply. I am off cooking.

[Specmaster]

@Vince,
Nope, I am not angry at all, and I would have thought that it was perfectly obvious that I and others here were just trying to give you the benefit of many years of experience. Back in the day, the vast array of plug / socket interfaces that we currently enjoy was not available. I have had frequency generators before, British made with coax sockets by Belling-Lee on them as standard, simply because that was all that was available at the time and spares were available in most electronic shops because they were in common use so replacing them was not an issue.

Parts, as we all know or should know, do become unobtainable and so sometimes compromises have to be made in order to return things to full functionality, and it was proving to be the same with your socket, so I was just advising you of other options that were open to you, but as I have pointed out in the posts, those solutions also depend on what your desired end result was. It is your equipment, therefore your choice, plain and simple, its no skin off my nose is it 

EDIT:
I have read your reply to menmenth, which was also not warranted, you really should read carefully what people are telling you and then make your own mind up about which you go with the advice given, it just that advice, not instructions.

[m k]

Traveller's claws.

That power supply was much easier.
Though couldn't find a single unused 7805 but found some 78M05.
No idea eighter what are the real diffences between those types if both are TO-220.
Anyway, the device is now operational and incredible low power consumption for the device that size.
(fine DCV (no options) measurements but NRZ)

Legs and lifters(?) are also missing.
For now there should already be many general acessory sellers.

[mnementh]

Sometimes I wonder if people read what I say before replying ?!   

I will leave at that, it's going in circles now. Think what you want, I can't and won't stop you.

As for me all I care about now is cooking the kilogram of huge langoustines I just bought. It's not often I can get really big ones.

I thought sticking to TE would be enough to stay out of trouble... but seems that no, even a freaking connector is enough to start a fire.
I don't know what to do any more... 

No, don't even reply... well you can but I won't even read it nor reply. I am off cooking.

Yes Vince, I read every word. And you did come off as very confrontational, when Spec was just trying to warn you that this connector is a known point of failure in almost every application for which it is used.

I'm trying to ask you nicely to dial that back just a wee bit; not attacking in any way.

Cheers,

mnem
walking on eggshells is not a naturally tenable situation for a dwagon...

[mnementh]

Interesting source for tools in the US:

http://www.pkneuses.com/www.pkneuses.com/tools.htm

I have not seen the relay/switch adjusting tools elsewhere!

Is it bad that my internal spelling checker is trying to turn that domain name into "pink anuses"? 

I dunno... Am I the only one in here who, when PBS shows the Deloitte & Touche sponsor splash after a program, reads it first as Toilette and Douche...? Like every freaking time...?

mnem
they took my thumbs.

[mnementh]

RE: chamfer vs bevel.

Always understood what it meant and never had an issue with either word. I'm surprised that "chamfer" is almost unknown and apparently in some circles (the military) a dirty word. 

Likewise, even more so when it sounds like one of those circles was people working with mechanical drawings.  I’ve known what a chamfer is since I was a kid.  Quite surprising.

-Pat

Hmmm... According to grand-dad (I assume this was machinist terminology), a chamfer is on an inside face (ie, inside a hole or tube) while a bevel is on an outside face like the sides of a cube or edges of a flat plate.

I had no idea the former was such a controversial term. 

mnem
psssssst... radius...

[mansaxel]

Well, telecoms wasn't the only place where the relay was king. A lot of pre-70s/80s industrial automation was done with relays. There are probably whole factories still turning out the same old products and materials that they have been for the last 50-80 years with relay controls clicking away inside huge control cabinets. Appropriately designed relay logic can be amazingly reliable.

Indeed. This also goes for railway signalling.  BICC / BR advertising:

https://youtu.be/rbPBKxPB3-c

[Neper]

And the trains themselves. Here's a bit of sound from a Belgian AM62 EMU, recorded between the driver's cabin on the right and the control cabinet on the left:
https://aporee.org/maps/files/AM66.mp3

Speaking of which: does anyone have or could someone point me to an audio recording of a contactor engaging... the typical klonk and the buzz?

[Robert763]

Traveller's claws.

That power supply was much easier.
Though couldn't find a single unused 7805 but found some 78M05.
No idea eighter what are the real diffences between those types if both are TO-220.
Anyway, the device is now operational and incredible low power consumption for the device that size.
(fine DCV (no options) measurements but NRZ)

Legs and lifters(?) are also missing.
For now there should already be many general acessory sellers.

The 7805 is rated for at least 1A output. Some versions are good for 1.5A. The 78M05 is only rated at 500mA output.
If your application is low power there should be no issue using a 78M05

[tautech]

RE: chamfer vs bevel.

Always understood what it meant and never had an issue with either word. I'm surprised that "chamfer" is almost unknown and apparently in some circles (the military) a dirty word. 

Likewise, even more so when it sounds like one of those circles was people working with mechanical drawings.  I’ve known what a chamfer is since I was a kid.  Quite surprising.

-Pat

Hmmm... According to grand-dad (I assume this was machinist terminology), a chamfer is on an inside face (ie, inside a hole or tube) while a bevel is on an outside face like the sides of a cube or edges of a flat plate.

I had no idea the former was such a controversial term. 

mnem
psssssst... radius...

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

[Cerebus]

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

Neither, you get kicked up it.

[mnementh]

fighting with UEFI and stupid BIOS no boot device messages

I had to upgrade BIOS, activate secure boot, do some MOK and enroll key...
Seems to work now.     after many years in Windoze... Ubuntu is like taking a shower after hard work... so nice.

That sounded more like taking a shower after hot, sweaty sex...

mnem
"Never sweat the petty things; always pet the sweaty things." ~SWMBO

[Cubdriver]

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

That's a new one on me - first I've ever seen the term (or at least actually paid attention to it - based on the picture in the Wiki page it may have been called out in a book or three I've seen in the past, but never was curious enough to track down the meaning).  Based on what little I know of it at this point - a "sharp edge formed by the intersection of two surfaces" (from Wiki), I'd say it's neither applied nor removed, but instead just results from the connection of other things.

-Pat

[mnementh]

RE: chamfer vs bevel.

Always understood what it meant and never had an issue with either word. I'm surprised that "chamfer" is almost unknown and apparently in some circles (the military) a dirty word. 

Likewise, even more so when it sounds like one of those circles was people working with mechanical drawings.  I’ve known what a chamfer is since I was a kid.  Quite surprising.

-Pat

Hmmm... According to grand-dad (I assume this was machinist terminology), a chamfer is on an inside face (ie, inside a hole or tube) while a bevel is on an outside face like the sides of a cube or edges of a flat plate.

I had no idea the former was such a controversial term. 

mnem
psssssst... radius...

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

That's because the term is deliberately fabrication-agnostic; it is "an edge formed by the meeting of two planes", primarily in an architectural setting.

That means each outside corner of a picture or door frame is an arris; as are the acute angles on the two pieces of wood before you bring them together. You cut to make the latter; you assemble to make the former.

mnem
"That's half a fucking glass of water." ~me

[mnementh]

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

Neither, you get kicked up it.

   The last Arris I had got kicked out the window. 

mnem
"surfboard, schmurfboard... Widlarize that mur'r-fur'r..." ~me

[Peter_O]

and my weller solding is now jobless bec. the JBC there.

What a Weller it is, Martin?
I've a WS81 and I'm fighting the TEA reflex while looking at JBCs.

[tautech]

Let's throw another in to test general knowledge about edge treatments on materials. Arris.
Is an arris applied or removed ? ......sometimes even tradesmen of decades experience can't agree on this one. 

That's a new one on me - first I've ever seen the term (or at least actually paid attention to it - based on the picture in the Wiki page it may have been called out in a book or three I've seen in the past, but never was curious enough to track down the meaning).  Based on what little I know of it at this point - a "sharp edge formed by the intersection of two surfaces" (from Wiki), I'd say it's neither applied nor removed, but instead just results from the connection of other things.

-Pat

It's a common woodworking term where the arris if it remains on finished work is both subject to physical damage and is impossible to have any finishing coatings properly cover the sharp corner that an arris is, therefore the arris is removed where some might now consider a chamfer or bevel has been applied.

Then, how much arris is removed is entirely dependent on the final end use where we might want a defined sharp edge or a wear resistant edge. Horses for courses applies ......