Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 18622798 times)

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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107575 on: November 25, 2021, 03:34:16 pm »
I am progressively getting used to the idea that it's time to stop collecting scopes, 35 of them is a bit much. So am considering getting rid of a few of them and replacing them with a few frequency counters.
Have you considered a modern AWG ?
Most have a basic counter but for calibrating CRO's their variety of signal types could also prove handy.

Yes long term would like an AWG. As to what what "modern" means... if you mlean Siglent modern no, probably not.  My budget and personal interest for "modern" stuff is mostly the '90s.

However as far as using an AWG as a counter no, I prefer dedicated tools that do one thing but hopefully do it well. At least do it better than if they ware also trying to do 3 other things at the same time... engineering is about compromises... the less stuff your device needs to do, the more you can optimize it and the better specs you can extract from it.

For "modern" stuff, to do real "work" (who am I kidding...) in the lab, to save space I intend to target mostly half width  instruments, with rear mounted fans/ventilation so I can stack instruments for more compactness. I like fluorescent displays, looks cool and is easy to read (when they are not worn out of course !  ;) ) . So mostly I would like to get the old HP/Agilent VFD instruments everybody seems to want. The 344xx something DMM, and the same form factor and display, the counter (with the optional but retro-fittable 3GHz RF input), and the sig gen / AWG.
Counter can be expensive as I understand it, if you want one with the OCXO or super duper OCXO++ mega top accurate. These are rare and expensive and not needed for me. That would require to let the counter/OCXO power up 24/7 to get turn key accuracy.
Nope... idea is to get a decent 10MHz ref + amplifier/dispatch box, and feed that to a "cheap" non-OCXO counter, which goes for 500 Euros usually IIRC, as do the DMM and AWG..  Only hte ref will need to run 24/7, one single device, then it will gvie me tunr key accuracy not just on the cheapish HP counter, but also even better, on any of my current and to come, vintage Nixie tube counters... making them much more useful instruments which is cool.

So basically I foresee 3 times 500 Euros to spend to get a basic set of decent modernish instruments.
Then another 500 for a decent HP/keysight dual output programmable power supply. Then another of the same, but high-voltage low current, to play with fluo anything... neon bulbs, high voltage Zener diodes, Nixie tubes, VFD displays, anything fluo-something....
That said my 200 volts 575 Tek curve tracer will already provide some functionality there as well, yeah..

Then a DC load, same form factor.

Then an RF synth, some '90's HP/Agilent  item again, not the super mega expensive ones that are rack mountable or shaped like it... but rather the bench top ones, more compact/narrower, taller. I don't know the model numbers sorry. They have a green/yellow text LCD with off white and anthracite themed front panel, I like this line of products.

Then an old HP spectrum analyzer, again the creme/anthracite ones, love those, but still very expensive today somehow....if I can't find a cheap enough one, might make more sense to go for a new-ish R&S one as I like them and the entry level ones (3GHz) or so, are kinda affordable IIRC ? 1500 Euros or something ? Maybe  with the TG option that I would want.

That's the program for Vince's Lab V2.0 in the making, should keep my waltet busy for the next few years !  :palm:


For basic signal generation needs, it's hard to beat 80s Wavetek like the 191 Robert posted a few pages ago; excellent signal purity and better than average performance, even 40 years old, make them awesome bang/buck nowadays as they can often be had for $30-50 in the 20 to 30-ish MHz range.

For general hobbyist use where you might need to actually have a ARB (as in making a signal which alternates between signal types or has a trigger pulse at longer x intervals, the UNI-T UTG-962 is also great bang/buck at ~US$110, as long as you understand it is definitely hobbyist-grade, as the faster you push it the poorer the output voltage regulation is.

If your application can permit you to set the output in-circuit against a scope so you know exactly what signal you're getting, you can get pretty good performance, but you can't just set a P-P voltage at a specific output load and be sure that's exactly what you'll get anywhere above 10-30MHz, depending on waveform.

That said... the UTG-962E is exponentially closer to lab-grade than any of the FeelTech, etc FY-6xxx-what-the-fuckever toys out there, and has the benefit of being able to run from any reasonably clean 3.8-5V@3A power source, including directly off a single freshly-charged 18650 cell for close to 30 minutes. And it is very compact for the functionality you get from it. :-+



https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394/

I think that even with these caveats, it's definitely worth looking at as a "to get you by until you get a better one" unit, as it is also a good second/portable unit. The thread above is definitely worth reading to make up your own mind.

The thing with ARBs is... they are all subject in some manner to similar limitations, even the very expensive name-brand ones. You have to spend a lot more to get much better performance than this one, even old & used from a major name.

mnem
 :-/O
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 03:45:51 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107576 on: November 25, 2021, 03:47:50 pm »
I think the forum is about to crash out, that last photo of Mnem's just took so long to load, line by line taking a few minutes to load a file of just 1.1Mb and I did a speed check at the same time and I got a result of 373Mbs,
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107577 on: November 25, 2021, 04:30:55 pm »
Yes, I've been waiting for it to crash for several hours now, it's almost too slow to be useable and normally this ends in a crash - we'll see.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107578 on: November 25, 2021, 04:54:43 pm »
Yeah, and that's not a new pic; it should be in their indexed long-term storage by now. (term? Whatever... it should not be a victim of the usual server propagation faults we've seen before) Here I figured my slow navigation was just BW-capping douchebaggery from my hotel WiFi. Good to know it's not only me.

mnem
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107579 on: November 25, 2021, 05:01:37 pm »


HAPPY TURKEY TERROR DAY EVERYONE!!!

mnem
*toddles off to get ready for T-day Dinner*
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 05:18:56 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107580 on: November 25, 2021, 05:12:11 pm »
I know last time we had problems, they did say that it would take a while before things returned to normal, but I really think its about time we got it sorted properly.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107581 on: November 25, 2021, 05:25:36 pm »
I fear the only real solution  that "sorts things properly" will be a massive upgrade in the hosting department, which would only come at a similar upgrade in $$$ expenditure.

Like almost anything of value in the wide wicked world, this place is ultimately someone's retirement fund; anything that saps those $$$ will be met with certain uhhhh... resistance. ;)

mnem
 :horse:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 05:27:53 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107582 on: November 25, 2021, 05:26:03 pm »
So mostly I would like to get the old HP/Agilent VFD instruments everybody seems to want. The 344xx something DMM, and the same form factor and display, the counter (with the optional but retro-fittable 3GHz RF input), and the sig gen / AWG.

34401A DMM.

Sounds like you want the Agilent 33120A 15 MHz Function / Arbitrary Waveform Generator

eBay auction: #324901382437

and then the Agilent 53131A 225 MHz Universal Frequency Counter/Timer

eBay auction: #324842284152

Yes those are the ones indeed... you know your HP model numbers much better than I do... I guess I too will know them by heart whenever I actually will be in a position to be actively searching for them... That last sentence sounds convoluted, I must have my grammar wrong somewhere...

« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 05:28:47 pm by Vince »
 
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107583 on: November 25, 2021, 06:06:16 pm »

Then an old HP spectrum analyzer, again the creme/anthracite ones, love those, but still very expensive today somehow....if I can't find a cheap enough one, might make more sense to go for a new-ish R&S one as I like them and the entry level ones (3GHz) or so, are kinda affordable IIRC ? 1500 Euros or something ? Maybe  with the TG option that I would want.


I stumbled, literally, over a [ hp ] SA today. And a [ hp ]  437 power meter, with sensor, to boot. Not mine, but decidedly unused and put away. Now I have a Campaign of Persuasion to mount.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 06:07:58 pm by mansaxel »
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107584 on: November 25, 2021, 06:31:54 pm »


mnem
may The Schvantz be with you. >:D
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Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107585 on: November 25, 2021, 06:38:48 pm »
34401A DMM.

Sounds like you want the Agilent 33120A 15 MHz Function / Arbitrary Waveform Generator

eBay auction: #324901382437

and then the Agilent 53131A 225 MHz Universal Frequency Counter/Timer

eBay auction: #324842284152

Yes those are the ones indeed... you know your HP model numbers much better than I do... I guess I too will know them by heart whenever I actually will be in a position to be actively searching for them... That last sentence sounds convoluted, I must have my grammar wrong somewhere...


From my experience (as an owner of all three mentioned devices) - The DMM and the Counter are still pretty good today, especially the 34401A DMM. The technology used in the 33120A generator is rather outdated in comparison to a modern one. Sometimes I see a 33120A for sale, IMO overpriced for their performance in comparison to a modern Siglent or Keysight. Anyway, I like and use all of them.

There's a triple output power supply (E3631A) in a double height enclosure that makes a perfect fit in a stack of them  - I absolutely disliked this device for its User Interface when I had access to one at a former workplace.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 06:50:02 pm by capt bullshot »
Safety devices hinder evolution
 
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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107586 on: November 25, 2021, 07:39:37 pm »


For basic signal generation needs, it's hard to beat 80s Wavetek like the 191 Robert posted a few pages ago; excellent signal purity and better than average performance, even 40 years old, make them awesome bang/buck nowadays as they can often be had for $30-50 in the 20 to 30-ish MHz range.


mnem
 :-/O

If you buy anything Wavetek in those black plastic cases, make sure the seller packs it properly, or you'll probably end up with a circuit assembly surrounded by a 3D jigsaw.  :-DD
Also don't overtighten the case screws, unless you want the case halves cracked.

I did have two Wavetek items but they have been re-homed, due to having more than enough HP gear, that does most of what they did (apart from maybe the voltage controlled inputs), I may have borrowed the feet for my Systron Donner stuff.  :-X

David
 
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Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107587 on: November 25, 2021, 07:52:52 pm »
Vince, if you desperately need an Arbitrary Function Gen, I do have a GW Instek AFG 2225 that I would be willing to part with.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107588 on: November 25, 2021, 08:01:44 pm »

From my experience (as an owner of all three mentioned devices) - The DMM and the Counter are still pretty good today, especially the 34401A DMM. The technology used in the 33120A generator is rather outdated in comparison to a modern one. Sometimes I see a 33120A for sale, IMO overpriced for their performance in comparison to a modern Siglent or Keysight. Anyway, I like and use all of them.
At one time I yearned for a mark/time generator for setting up CRO's but as you say the modern 2ch AWG can do all this and whole lot more.
The 30 MHz SDG1032X for $319 is good little AWG that if necessary can also be talked into becoming a 60 MHz unit for sine and square waves to max frequency with rise times in the low single digits ns region which is quite fast enough for most old CRO's except the bleeding edge ones of that time.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107589 on: November 25, 2021, 08:08:40 pm »
You are more likely to find radioactive material in a regular vacuum tube. Many have thorum in the heaters or cathodes. A lot of Voltage regulator tubes contain radioactive material this can be gas, metal or plating internally or even a piece of material on the outside of the envelope.
Many spark gaps and microwave switch or limiter devices are also coantain radioactive material.

Indeed old stuff had radioactive everything !  :scared:

To add to your list, another example : recently on my 575 resto thread we were discussing with Factory neon bulbs, "NE" something.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-type-575-curve-tracer-repair-and-restoration/msg3802085/#msg3802085

We looked at the period datasheet for them and it says they added some "mild" radioactive stuff in the bulbs to reduce the "dark effect", whatever that is.

There are at least a dozen of these bulbs in each and every of my glowing Tek scopes ! I am doomed ! :-DD

In vacuum tubes the emission is driven by the heater. In Neons you need to start the emission. This can be by light, radioactive radiation or heat (fluorescent hg lamps with starter). Carlson's lab has a video on the hp 419a, with explanation and the replacement of the neons with red led's and a lt494 (type only visible on a blink of the video).

There is a comment by JOHN YOUNGQUIST:
"... Neon depends on alpha particles from outer space to provide seed ionization to work in the dark, otherwise ordinary ambient light does it. Lamps that had to work in the dark employed radioactivity. A little KR-85 a radioactive isotope of krypton gas mixed with the neon was often used. Some sort of radioactive electrode or green uranium glass might do it too. The exact neon bulb might have been a carefully guarded secret at the time to prevent copying the design. The little bulb was so common at the time who would think it was special? It would look the same as any other lamp.  They would not have unlimited life and for something people left on all the time replacements would be inevitable. ..."

Have a look at the General Electric GE glow lamps manual 2nd edition pdf, or Signalite glow lamps pdf, both can be found on the web, there is a lot more to Neon bulbs than just using them as indicator lamps, they were used for all sorts of circuits, such as oscillators, logic & counting and voltage regulators, etc.  ;)

I remember finding out about the radioactive content of some neon bulbs & voltage ref tubes a long time ago, the VF tube from my hp 412AR actually mentions it's radioactive content and the amount in microcuries of Krypton, shame I haven't got a decent picture, digital cameras sucked back then.

Also reminded of this blunder by a well known mil-surplus dealer on ePay, I bought a mixed lot of neons, about a  third of the box arrived as metal & glass shards, due to them thinking a single sheet of newspaper, between each layer of glass objects was an acceptable shipping method and yes some of the smashed ones were radioactive.  |O


David
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107590 on: November 25, 2021, 08:08:50 pm »
Vince, if you desperately need an Arbitrary Function Gen, I do have a GW Instek AFG 2225 that I would be willing to part with.

Thanks for the offer but nope, I am not desperate at all.. as I said I was only exposing my long term plans for the next few years, have no urgent need for anything, and no (serious) money to spend on modern TE anyway. I will just by the gear I want once I can afford it, as I go... there is no rush.
 
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Offline Andrew_Debbie

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107591 on: November 25, 2021, 09:00:01 pm »


For basic signal generation needs, it's hard to beat 80s Wavetek like the 191 Robert posted a few pages ago; excellent signal purity and better than average performance, even 40 years old, make them awesome bang/buck nowadays as they can often be had for $30-50 in the 20 to 30-ish MHz range.




An affordable Wavetek is on my want list.   My EE degree is from SDSU and more than a few students and faculty worked at Wavetek.    (Not me.) 

I'm drawn to TE  built in Southern California from the '70s and '80s.    I've got a Beckman DMM and now the Dana 5100.  Wavetek are next.

THere is a 191 on eBay at the moment but  £90.12 + £63 shipping from the US is more than I care to spend.  I suppose I should wait until our next trip to the US and bring one back in my carry on.  Taking that through security would be interesting.


Edit:  There is this --> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184873622363    only 2MHz though.

And this Model 30 which feels very overpriced --> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143962346551  -   
 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:07:18 pm by Andrew_Debbie »
 
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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107592 on: November 25, 2021, 09:11:23 pm »
There is a Wavetek 164 in the PPauction, the frame looks a little bit corroded.
https://www2.ppauctions.com/lot/161314/lot-66

Edit: Someone has finally outbid tggzzz on the KVD too.

David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:25:56 pm by factory »
 
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Offline Andrew_Debbie

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107593 on: November 25, 2021, 09:17:48 pm »
8 1/2 Digit  Daytron Wavetek  1271 -->  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382589545366    Only £2,450
 

Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107594 on: November 25, 2021, 09:23:17 pm »
8 1/2 Digit  Daytron Wavetek  1271 -->  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382589545366    Only £2,450

specs are maybe good, but man that thing is ugly  :palm:
Electronics enthusiast, TEA and Radio Amateur (PE1ONS)
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Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107595 on: November 25, 2021, 09:25:18 pm »
stumbled across an Okuma Multus B400 which is for sale.
I need a bigger house and a direct reactor energy feed ...
 

Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107596 on: November 25, 2021, 09:34:02 pm »
Vince,
I got the control panel out. All the minitrons work but one looks a bit dim. Don't know if it's a display or drive issue. They are socketed so easy to find out. You only need four for a clock It has a greenish night vision goggle (NVG) compatible display filter this needs a clean.
It does have a fault, it looks like the on/off/function switch is faulty. There is an internal 12V regulator and if I put voltage on that it works but there is no continiuity between the regulator positive input and any pin on the connector (pin U is 0V).
Additional good news is that I have manuals that include details of an internally identical control head, it just has a different pin out. The logic is all standard CMOS at 12V and would be easy to interface to.
I think it's worth £30
It's just under 1kg packed so postage would be £10
Send me a private messageif interested.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:39:55 pm by Robert763 »
 
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107597 on: November 25, 2021, 09:39:43 pm »
Some key component in the heating system of the building has conked out, this morning. No heating, no hot water. Landlord says spare part should arrive by Monday.  >:(
Around 10years ago, that happened to me right when it got friggin' cold. As it was weekend, my options were limited with regard to instant remedial action. So I set up a fan, a variac and the biggest sliding load resistor that I had. The temperature crept up about 1 degree per hour, but at 19° C it crept no further. Still friggin' cold.
 

Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107598 on: November 25, 2021, 09:56:54 pm »
set up a mining rig. The GDDR6 of an RTX 3080 or RTX 3090 easily reaches 110 degrees, if you attach a fan you can distribute the heat in your flat. Undervolting got the temp down to 94 degrees, which is still a bloody lot.

actually I am thinking of using the excess electricity to power a mining rig and to utilize the excess heat to either heat the house or the water.

Depends on how soon we get that solar thingie up and running and how much excess juice we can get out of it.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #107599 on: November 25, 2021, 10:08:21 pm »
... I have too many meters, about 10 analogue and about 14 digital ....
Now wait a moment, what are you trying to say here?
 
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