Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Kosmic]

I got 4 spare boards I'm not going to use. If someone is interested I could slip it in a envelope easily.

How do you make these boards, printing and all?

I used Kicad and ordered from JlcPcb. You can get 5 2layers board for 2$ 





I'm not necessarily good with Kicad but it was interesting to import the outline from a model in Freecad. Hammond provide 3d models for their product.

[factory]

Yes I did think of that... but I would not let the counter on all the time, only power it up when I am working on the bench late in the evening with a risk of losing track of time.

Hell I am not even sure I got such a good deal on this counter... looking more closely at pics and schematics... I think the guy pulled the OCXO from this unit, I can't see an OCXO anywhere on his interior pic. A 250MHz counter with no OCXO or TCXO or even en external 10MHz ref input... that's worth 40 Euros 50 max, not the 100 he was asking. Glad I paid "only" 80 for it... and can get 2+ my money back if I sell the displays...
Also starting to think there might be a big fan protruding outside the top cover of the thing, which he did all he could to hide in his pictures, and of course never mentioned...

Looks like I got fucked again. Human kind is hopeless, there just isn't any honest and competent seller left in this world.

I am waiting to receive the thing to confirm my suspicions, but I am not too hopeful. I got fucked, again. I am stupid and naive...

Well, still a cute little counter and love the old paper docs that come wit hit. But it's 40 Euros cute, not 80 Euros cute. And there is no excuse for advertising an OCXO when there is not, it's just asking for trouble...

Knowing that, there is more incentive for using this thing as a "project" than using it as a counter...

Still, it's got cool displays and does go up to 250MHz, I will give it that...though going to 250MHz with only 7 digits, that's a 100 HZ resolution so hardly stellar... and no RF pre-amp either, nor sensitivity adjustment for the LF input.

.. maybe I can recoup my money buy selling the displays and replacing them with LEDs which I then could leave on at will for a clock.
I don't know.... I want my Minitron displays, don't want to part with them....

They have not pulled the crystal oscillator, it's on one of the boards, shown as a transistor heater stuck to a crystal (exactly as the diagram shows), the dashed lines show each board.


Some other vintage counter use the 95H90 prescaler IC, or the Plessey SP630B for approx 500MHz.

Please do not turn this into another clock, more than enough of those out there already using old stock Russian parts* and the last thing we need is people on here encouraging the destruction of more TE. 
That would make you no better than the Tek murderer you were criticising yesterday.

*example of Russian tubes; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334226281408

David

[factory]

Before I visited Albions grey shores, I had from reading, been introduced to the strange device called an "Aga", which is some form of solid fuel stove, like the things we call, in Oz, for some not very apparent reason, "slow combustion stoves", perhaps used for heating.

As nobody I met in my early time in the UK mentioned such things, I assumed it was an old device, & no longer in use, but sitting on a train, idly eavesdropping on a couple of middle aged ladies chatting, one said " I've started up the Aga!"

In the time I was there I never saw one "in the flesh".

Then there is "the Tannoy", which to everybody else, is a "PA system".

Yet another, is the place where avid football fans stand & abuse the umpire--- the "Kop".
Whether this is from the Boer war, or old English, I have no idea!

In Oz, the "Food Hall" is where you can buy snacks, coffee, etc, & can sit to consume them, but (at least, back then), in England, it was the area where cake & other such delights were sold, for later consumption at home.

"Aga" is swedish in origin. I've only ever seen one, a wood fired one, in live operation, and now that I do my research, I find that today there are only gas and electric ones available, and them I'm not interested in.

"Tannoy" still make excellent coaxial broadband driver elements. That driver series, a 12" one preferably, fitted into a sturdy cabinet make a nice-sounding, point-source wedge monitor, for precision stage monitor work.

As far as I know Tannoy speakers are no more, the factory in Scotland has closed & the contents auctioned off last year, guess they are just another name stuck on rebranded Chinese products now. 
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173832

David

[AVGresponding]

@vince
Don't use the numitrons for a clock or leave the counter on. They are filament lamps and like any filament lamp have a limited life.

Yes I did think of that... but I would not let the counter on all the time, only power it up when I am working on the bench late in the evening with a risk of losing track of time.

Hell I am not even sure I got such a good deal on this counter... looking more closely at pics and schematics... I think the guy pulled the OCXO from this unit, I can't see an OCXO anywhere on his interior pic. A 250MHz counter with no OCXO or TCXO or even en external 10MHz ref input... that's worth 40 Euros 50 max, not the 100 he was asking. Glad I paid "only" 80 for it... and can get 2+ my money back if I sell the displays...
Also starting to think there might be a big fan protruding outside the top cover of the thing, which he did all he could to hide in his pictures, and of course never mentioned...

Looks like I got fucked again. Human kind is hopeless, there just isn't any honest and competent seller left in this world.

I am waiting to receive the thing to confirm my suspicions, but I am not too hopeful. I got fucked, again. I am stupid and naive...

Well, still a cute little counter and love the old paper docs that come wit hit. But it's 40 Euros cute, not 80 Euros cute. And there is no excuse for advertising an OCXO when there is not, it's just asking for trouble...

Knowing that, there is more incentive for using this thing as a "project" than using it as a counter...

Still, it's got cool displays and does go up to 250MHz, I will give it that...though going to 250MHz with only 7 digits, that's a 100 HZ resolution so hardly stellar... and no RF pre-amp either, nor sensitivity adjustment for the LF input.

.. maybe I can recoup my money buy selling the displays and replacing them with LEDs which I then could leave on at will for a clock.
I don't know.... I want my Minitron displays, don't want to part with them....

istr reading somewhere that if you reduce the drive voltage to 70% of nominal you can double the expected service life of DC filament lamps, without reducing the light output so much as to be unusable.

[Kosmic]

Looks like I got fucked again. Human kind is hopeless, there just isn't any honest and competent seller left in this world.

Come one Vince you don't want competent seller. If everybody knew exactly what they were selling I wouldn't have much fun on Ebay 

[Robert763]

Vince,
As pointed out the temperture controlled xtal is there. There is a fan in the top cover. If there wasn't that much TLL would overheat in such a small box.  €80 seems a fair price to me. Please don't break it up.

[Neper]

As far as I know Tannoy speakers are no more, the factory in Scotland has closed & the contents auctioned off last year, guess they are just another name stuck on rebranded Chinese products now.

Worse still, they have fallen into the hands of Uli Billigheimer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Tribe

[factory]

Googled for " 3015F ", lots of hits, it's a Numitron part number !    Google even found me a nice little data sheet for it.
They run on 5V DC at 8mA, so ideal to be driven directly by the TTL logic chips of the day, which this counter uses.

Found some for sale on Ebay, used ones, 30 USD each ?!    On offer, but still...
7 of them in this counter, all in good condition judging by the photos so... 210 USD for the lot, 175 Euros or something, more than twice what I paid for the counter. So I guess it was not such a bad buy after all ??  Not that I internet to resell the displays of course, not my kind ! 

And if they are put on auction they make very little, the pricey BINs only sell when someone is desperate for a replacement.


David

[Cerebus]

As far as I know Tannoy speakers are no more, the factory in Scotland has closed & the contents auctioned off last year, guess they are just another name stuck on rebranded Chinese products now. 
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173832

David

Now part of Music Tribe, the conglomerate that owns, amongst others Midas, Klark Teknik, and Behringer. Still manufacturing dual concentric drivers, but only up to 8" as far as I can tell, not the 12" and 15" dual concentrics that my ears grew up with (Used to work in a studio with 15" dual concentrics mounted in Lockwood cabinets for the main monitors, glorious). So not rebranded, probably made in China, but still a Tannoy design.

There is a whole cottage industry built around rebuilding and refurbishing the classic Tannoy dual concentrics so as long as the frames and the magnets don't get broken there will be big Tannoy dual concentrics around forever. Sure, supply and demand may make them more expensive, but then they were never inexpensive in the first place.

[mansaxel]

As far as I know Tannoy speakers are no more, the factory in Scotland has closed & the contents auctioned off last year, guess they are just another name stuck on rebranded Chinese products now. 
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173832

David

Oh, yeah, they're in that quagmire now. Behringer and their brands are truly hit and miss, and have always been. I have great respect for their compressor/limiter, the Composer. I own three, and they sound clean and compress well. Their digital mixer, the X32, is a marvellous hit in terms of price/performance, but it has annoying issues if you try to do things reasonable to expect from a mixing desk but not necessarily middle-of-the-road church mixing (they've got an enormous footprint in the church industry(sic!) in the US.)  We recently bought a small USB sound card from them, for the Middle Boy. It's been doing what one expects from sound cards. Their DI boxes feel very cheap. I've got a pair of BSS AR113 ones, and some Radial Engineering passives. They're my standard, and there Behringer is lacking.

[Kosmic]

To get back to the topic, last month after getting Belden sticker shock, I ended up ordering Chinese triax cables off epay for my -hp- 4145B semiconductor parameter analyzer system. The build quality of the cables is pretty good for the money. But, after experience using them with the 16058A test fixture, unfortunately they are not very consistent performance wise. One of the original order was bad (extremely poor performance in pA range measurements), so they sent me another one to replace it. The replacement was better, but if I'm being honest, if you have an application where you need the extra guard shield of triax (like very low current), you should pop for the good stuff (Belden) if you can afford it.

Got the same experience. The knock off triax connectors are crap.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3536242/#msg3536242





BTW, it's not supposed to turn like that 

[Robert763]

Hmm, while in the garages today I came across some Triaxial cable. Two types. One is PTFE with FEP sheath around 5mm dia. The other is smaller with a black sheath. Anyone interested in some? If so I'll look for the type numbers.

[Kosmic]

Hmm, while in the garages today I came across some Triaxial cable. Two types. One is PTFE with FEP sheath around 5mm dia. The other is smaller with a black sheath. Anyone interested in some? If so I'll look for the type numbers.

I might be interested in the one with a black sheath. If you can get the model num that would be great!

[BU508A]

I used Kicad and ordered from JlcPcb. You can get 5 2layers board for 2$ 

Would it be possible to upload the Gerber files here, so that one (e.g. me) could order also some PCBs?
That would be very kind.   

Thanks in advance.

[mnementh]

I found some Vishay SMD precision resistor on ebay. 0.01% 2ppm tempco max. They sell between 15$ and 35$ new on mouser.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Calibration-Resistor-Standards-Vishay-01-2ppm-SMD-Laser-Trimmed-Kit/124549960880

Seller is asking 15$ for 14 pieces (around 1$ each) but he accepted my offer at 10$.

I finally took some time to make a PCB and enclosure for the resistors.

(image snipped)

The PCB screw on top of a 1590A Hammond box.

(image snipped)

I got 4 spare boards I'm not going to use. If someone is interested I could slip it in a envelope easily.

Looks great!  I was thinking of doing up a board using 0.1" dupont-style pins.  Yours came out way better...
Please, sign me up for a board.

A few of us got a set of those resistors each...

EDIT:  must include the humorous part.  For a moment, I had you mixed up with 25_CPS.  I was thinking in my head "I bet Kosmic would be interested in ordering a board as well, probably the dwagon too..."    Obviously, you Kosmic have received your board already 

Yup. I sure would.

*light dawns that I am no longer part of the Canuckistan Cabal*

mnem
*snif* 

[Kosmic]

I used Kicad and ordered from JlcPcb. You can get 5 2layers board for 2$ 

Would it be possible to upload the Gerber files here, so that one (e.g. me) could order also some PCBs?
That would be very kind.   

Thanks in advance.

I've attached the files to my original post.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1328069

[Kosmic]

I used Kicad and ordered from JlcPcb. You can get 5 2layers board for 2$ 

Would it be possible to upload the Gerber files here, so that one (e.g. me) could order also some PCBs?
That would be very kind.   

Thanks in advance.

I've attached the files to my original post.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1328069

BTW the holes are 1.09mm diameter. I used Mill-Max 3141-2-00-15-00-00-08-0 post. They are a bit small but the price is reasonable. You can find them on digikey.

[Vince]

They have not pulled the crystal oscillator, it's on one of the boards, shown as a transistor heater stuck to a crystal (exactly as the diagram shows), the dashed lines show each board.

Ohhhhh......  thanks for that, you are right in deed ! Wow, I expected a biggish "can", not such a very compact arrangement that it can fit onto a sandwich of boards like that !    So there it is, yeah !!!    I have my 80 Euros worth, mood is improving fast ! 
I reworked the inside pic a bit, zooming on the required area and adding lots of light, we can see the OCXO much better now.

also attached the board layout of interest. No doubt this is it... transistor is on the right on the picture, crystal on the left.
Looking at the schematic I was wondering where the hell was the resistor/heater in this "oven", and what the hell was transistor doing in there ! ... only to come to the conclusion that yeah, as you said.... transistor IS the heating element, no resistor here !
I guess I learned something... I though a resistor was the easiest / most obvious way of heating a crystal oven.... looks like not ?
Maybe a power resistor would have too much thermal mass and the control loop would be too slow ? Using a transistor instead makes it more responsive ? No idea, just talking out of my arse...   

Still with no can to cover the crystal and transistor completely, thermal coupling / regulation is not great is it  ? Maybe they rely on the fact that the instrument is very compact / crowded, to consider that the temperature around the OCXO, though "open", is still stable enough for it to work. At least to get the accuracy they were targeting I guess...

Some other vintage counter use the 95H90 prescaler IC, or the Plessey SP630B for approx 500MHz.

Datasheet I got gives the 95H90 for 250MHs so 500MHz seems like quite a stretch !  Maybe if you pump up the signal before hand... but the datasheet does not give a graph showing bandwidth relative to input signal amplitude, so I don't know....

Please do not turn this into another clock, more than enough of those out there already using old stock Russian parts* and the last thing we need is people on here encouraging the destruction of more TE. 
That would make you no better than the Tek murderer you were criticising yesterday.

*example of Russian tubes; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334226281408

David

OK OK !!   
Now that I know it does have an OCXO, I would not have taken it apart anyway, and again had I turnesd it into a clock it would have been implemented as an extra feature, counter would have kept its original counter ability.

Thanks for the link on the Russian things, so you can buy a set of 6 for only 25 quid (double that with shipping and import charges, but still, kinda reasonable), of Numitron displays... packages in a vacuum tube envelope ?!     Interesting... yes in this case it would be a waste and stupid to repurpose a nice and exotic counter just for its displays...

Also found these on Ebay : 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194289930578

Again Russian "tubes", this time using VFD 7 segments rather than Numitrons, and they look very large/tall at that. NOS, for a reasonable price...
OK OK.... I won't modify my little counter, will make my own clock with brand new displays of some kind...

Or maybe Robert can find me an old cheap piece of avionics gear that I can repurpose... something with a few digits and a knob or two ti set the time... I don't know, some auto-pilot control maybe, heading/altitude/vertical speed displays, something like that.... or an old FMS with a monochrome CRT and a cool keypad, for more options wrt to user interface and looks... yeah.... 

[mnementh]

To get back to the topic, last month after getting Belden sticker shock, I ended up ordering Chinese triax cables off epay for my -hp- 4145B semiconductor parameter analyzer system. The build quality of the cables is pretty good for the money. But, after experience using them with the 16058A test fixture, unfortunately they are not very consistent performance wise. One of the original order was bad (extremely poor performance in pA range measurements), so they sent me another one to replace it. The replacement was better, but if I'm being honest, if you have an application where you need the extra guard shield of triax (like very low current), you should pop for the good stuff (Belden) if you can afford it.

Got the same experience. The knock off triax connectors are crap.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3536242/#msg3536242

   https://youtu.be/njxISiRzPBs

BTW, it's not supposed to turn like that 

IMHO, it's kindof sad to be looking up to Belden as a "quality" source in the first place. 

The gross megatonnage of utterly garbage cables, dongles, power packs and adapters they shuffle out the consumer audio and PC peripherals markets every year has earned them a special place in Hell as far as I'm concerned.

mnem

*still loves his vintage Oldaker test leads*

[AVGresponding]

Discord is rolling and we are discussing such interesting things as law, order, and marketing presentations.

[factory]

They have not pulled the crystal oscillator, it's on one of the boards, shown as a transistor heater stuck to a crystal (exactly as the diagram shows), the dashed lines show each board.

Ohhhhh......  thanks for that, you are right in deed ! Wow, I expected a biggish "can", not such a very compact arrangement that it can fit onto a sandwich of boards like that !    So there it is, yeah !!!    I have my 80 Euros worth, mood is improving fast ! 
I reworked the inside pic a bit, zooming on the required area and adding lots of light, we can see the OCXO much better now.

also attached the board layout of interest. No doubt this is it... transistor is on the right on the picture, crystal on the left.
Looking at the schematic I was wondering where the hell was the resistor/heater in this "oven", and what the hell was transistor doing in there ! ... only to come to the conclusion that yeah, as you said.... transistor IS the heating element, no resistor here !
I guess I learned something... I though a resistor was the easiest / most obvious way of heating a crystal oven.... looks like not ?
Maybe a power resistor would have too much thermal mass and the control loop would be too slow ? Using a transistor instead makes it more responsive ? No idea, just talking out of my arse...   

Still with no can to cover the crystal and transistor completely, thermal coupling / regulation is not great is it  ? Maybe they rely on the fact that the instrument is very compact / crowded, to consider that the temperature around the OCXO, though "open", is still stable enough for it to work. At least to get the accuracy they were targeting I guess...

The HP 10811A/B oven oscillator uses not one, but two transistors as heaters. Full details in the manual on the Keysight Blindsight website, if they haven't deleted them by now. 

Some other vintage counter use the 95H90 prescaler IC, or the Plessey SP630B for approx 500MHz.

Datasheet I got gives the 95H90 for 250MHs so 500MHz seems like quite a stretch !  Maybe if you pump up the signal before hand... but the datasheet does not give a graph showing bandwidth relative to input signal amplitude, so I don't know....

Apologies that wasn't very clear, I meant they used the Plessey IC instead to get the higher frequency, the manual I was looking at had an optional board with the 95H90 for 250MHz. Or a different option board with the SP630B for 500MHz, though that IC is rated for 600MHz.

David

[Robert763]

Hmm, while in the garages today I came across some Triaxial cable. Two types. One is PTFE with FEP sheath around 5mm dia. The other is smaller with a black sheath. Anyone interested in some? If so I'll look for the type numbers.

I might be interested in the one with a black sheath. If you can get the model num that would be great!

ThePTFE one is 50R and pretty stiff ECS / Carlisle 322001
https://www.carlisleit.com/wp-content/pdfs/prodinfo/50OhmTriax_322001.pdf?_t=1576175447

The black one is marked Tyco EPD 33279Q 26AWG
I can't find data on that one.

OD is 4.25mm. Outer sheath is PVC like, black. Screens are braided tinned copper. Interscreen layer is also PVC like, black. It is not semiconducting. A 6" length measued 45 G \$\Omega\$at 1000 V
Dielectic is foamed white probablyPVC dia is 2mm. Center conductor is stranded tinned copper.
 

[Robert763]

<BIG SNIP>
 new displays of some kind...

Or maybe Robert can find me an old cheap piece of avionics gear that I can repurpose... something with a few digits and a knob or two ti set the time... I don't know, some auto-pilot control maybe, heading/altitude/vertical speed displays, something like that.... or an old FMS with a monochrome CRT and a cool keypad, for more options wrt to user interface and looks... yeah.... 

Again in the garage today I found a couple of control panels that might suit. Even one with Numitrons!

[Vince]

You are the man Robert ! 

I am sure there is enough parts in your garage to build a plane.. just put all the parts together and drag the plane out of that garage, that will make a lot of room and you might (just might), eventually be able to see the back of the garage !! 

Pics of your avionics ? No money really but just curious ! What did you buy them for at the time, what did you plan on doing with them ?

[Robert763]

BIN 42