Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 16728482 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106600 on: November 10, 2021, 06:15:07 pm »
]Hmmm... any difference in the recommended soldering process between the two? Do either of them have a published recommended handling process for hand-soldering/proto work?

mnem
 :-/O

Nope, standard JEDEC default profiles, just like everything else.

Hand soldering 0.5mm pitch 48 pin QFNs? For masochists only and definitely something you won't find in the manufacturer's literature who would expect them only to be reflow soldered.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106601 on: November 10, 2021, 06:19:14 pm »
That is how they were shipped to me.  :(

TTL is pretty rugged.   With any luck they are fine.     The DM74188s shipped in an anti-static tube  :)
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106602 on: November 10, 2021, 06:20:47 pm »
Could be different resin / plastic in the same package.

I tried to find a materials declaration for the ST parts, and couldn't. Lattice make the materials declaration easy to find, clear and comprehensive - here it is:



So this morning I finally knew exactly how much gold was in these chips - 1.1 mg (£0.0486 worth at today's spot prices!).

Edit: Finally found an ST materials declaration for the same package code (but not the same die) as the device I'm using. Encapsulation material is "Mold Compound: Sumitomo EME-G770" exactly the same as for the Lattice package. The die attach is a different supplier, but is probably functionally the same (75% Silver, the rest epoxy).

So it looks more and more like they take very different attitudes to what's acceptable at what MSL level.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 07:13:44 pm by Cerebus »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106603 on: November 10, 2021, 06:27:07 pm »
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106604 on: November 10, 2021, 06:29:01 pm »
One day I'll buy a 34401A and will replace the LM399 with an ADR1399KHZ  ;D 8)
They are available at analog.com for 12.28 Dollars per piece (one has to order at least 18 pieces).



I wonder if the LM399 on the 34401a were hand pick ? if they were, replacing just by any regular ADR1399 might not be a great move.

Yes, it might be worth a try.
IIRC stated AD at the MM2021 that the ADR1399KHZ can be used as a direct replacement of the LM399.
Might be a fun project.
Given that you want to age them 3-6 months to make the calibration adjustment worthwile, better start now to be the first one with the nice toy  >:D
I seem to have noodled two samples out of AD. ADR1000 unfortunately not. Will try again if we use a RF amplifier from them in a design. But what would be really nice is to aquire some AD588 as long as they exist. But on the topic of references - what do you think about THIS ONE?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 06:53:00 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106605 on: November 10, 2021, 06:46:19 pm »
That Logo says Sennheiser to me, not Grunzig.

Definitely Sennheiser. They also made a companion A-curve weighting filter, model OF2.

Metrix made several VTVM, among them the model 744. Further European makers of VTVM were Clamann & Grahnert and RFT in East Germany. And if you'd like something from Scandinavia, Brüll & Klirr made a few.
IIRC Radiometer Kopenhagen did one too. And if you really want to include Eastern Block stuff, there was Meratronik from Poland and Metra Blanko from Czechoslovakia and the Hungarians.
Further I am not sure whether Zapadpribor made one, but it would fit in well with their selective voltmeters, the early examples of which were valve-based too.
For Yugoslavia I am not sure how the manufacturer was named, maybe it is Vuko but that may as well be only the label for export.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 06:58:15 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106606 on: November 10, 2021, 07:07:23 pm »
That Logo says Sennheiser to me, not Grunzig.

Jawoll, Herr Kaleun'!

I did write "borrowed pic", didn't I?  :-DD :-DD

This is a pic from the ad, of the one I've bought:



FWIW, it is probably all the same, barring the logo. Which was not always true: I've read that one of the first products from Labor W, the pre-Sennheiser name of Sennheiser (name taken from Wennebostel, where Fritz & Co relocated as they realised that Berlin was going to be in the Soviet occupation zone...) was a VTVM, and that was in-house built. However, around 1962ish, which is the period I've found for the RV55, Sennheiser already had the MD21 in production (they still make it) and had invented the HF condenser mikes, among others,  and Hartmann & Braun probably were a convenient subcontractor to both Grundig and Sennheiser, allowing both to concentrate on their core business. (Grundig at that time were selling rebranded Sennheiser microphones so the helping relations were well developed)

What are the input connectors, by the way?

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106607 on: November 10, 2021, 07:18:19 pm »
NAILED IT!

R396 (2.2M/.25W) on main board cracked. That fixed 75% of it. The intensity control is also spotty and deoxit doesn't help. But I'll never find a control with the special shaft so going to have to live with it. It's not bad and the scope is serviceable. Now if I can just get it back together without breaking something else.  ;D



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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106608 on: November 10, 2021, 07:23:58 pm »
That just serves to remind me how much I've always disliked moulded carbon composite resistors. Fragile little buggers.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106609 on: November 10, 2021, 07:25:50 pm »

What are the input connectors, by the way?
4-13, which is also referred to as 'shielded banana plug'. There are two variants: one with the center 4mm plug protruding, the other with a longer outer conductor sleeve. Also found on older Siemens and R&S equipment, among others. The standard is DIN 47283.
* Telegaertner_BNC-f_to_4-13m.jpg (47.01 kB - downloaded 49 times.)1320458-1
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 07:29:00 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106610 on: November 10, 2021, 07:25:57 pm »
@ch-scr I did bag that pressure calibrator I linked in Discord last week, and it turns out the "data lost" display is down to the internal battery being pooped. Aside from that it works perfectly.

The battery is 4 Hawker Cyclon 2.5Ah SLAs in the D-cell format; I'm currently (sorry not sorry) tickling them with ~10mA to see if they'll recover, as they were at around 4.5V for the string, so there is some hope.
It's made in Finland, and I can't find a manual for it online, might have to email them. It also came with a sturdy carry case in faux-leather, that seems to have never been used.

It also turns out that I can blow at about 2.5psi before my ears pop uncomfortably.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106611 on: November 10, 2021, 07:43:39 pm »
@ch-scr I did bag that pressure calibrator I linked in Discord last week, and it turns out the "data lost" display is down to the internal battery being pooped. Aside from that it works perfectly.

The battery is 4 Hawker Cyclon 2.5Ah SLAs in the D-cell format; I'm currently (sorry not sorry) tickling them with ~10mA to see if they'll recover, as they were at around 4.5V for the string, so there is some hope.
It's made in Finland, and I can't find a manual for it online, might have to email them. It also came with a sturdy carry case in faux-leather, that seems to have never been used.

It also turns out that I can blow at about 2.5psi before my ears pop uncomfortably.

Does that make you a qualified blowhard ?  :P  :-DD
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106612 on: November 10, 2021, 08:03:03 pm »
@ch-scr I did bag that pressure calibrator I linked in Discord last week, and it turns out the "data lost" display is down to the internal battery being pooped. Aside from that it works perfectly.

The battery is 4 Hawker Cyclon 2.5Ah SLAs in the D-cell format; I'm currently (sorry not sorry) tickling them with ~10mA to see if they'll recover, as they were at around 4.5V for the string, so there is some hope.
It's made in Finland, and I can't find a manual for it online, might have to email them. It also came with a sturdy carry case in faux-leather, that seems to have never been used.

It also turns out that I can blow at about 2.5psi before my ears pop uncomfortably.

Does that make you a qualified blowhard ?  :P  :-DD

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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106613 on: November 10, 2021, 08:52:03 pm »

What are the input connectors, by the way?
4-13, which is also referred to as 'shielded banana plug'. There are two variants: one with the center 4mm plug protruding, the other with a longer outer conductor sleeve. Also found on older Siemens and R&S equipment, among others. The standard is DIN 47283.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

I guessed as much, and IIRC I've got at least one adapter to that. Thanks.

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106614 on: November 10, 2021, 09:07:05 pm »
I keep finding the strangest 'unstruments' on the web.

Here one from India:
https://www.japson.com/conversion-of-galvanometer-into-a-voltmeter-ammeter.html
Just the title is a hoot!

And what the world needed - another talking multimeter:
http://www.microseveninc.com/vm10brochure.htm
The one from Voltcraft was bad enough while it kept to one language.

Note to self: Shake it off! Look at something functional and precise and forget that it exists!
 
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Offline Runco990

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106615 on: November 10, 2021, 09:45:56 pm »
NAILED IT!

R396 (2.2M/.25W) on main board cracked. That fixed 75% of it. The intensity control is also spotty and deoxit doesn't help. But I'll never find a control with the special shaft so going to have to live with it. It's not bad and the scope is serviceable. Now if I can just get it back together without breaking something else.  ;D





I have 2 of these little scopes... one in it's original carry pouch.  Been following your progress on this one.  On one of mine, besides the battery packs, the vertical attenuator switches fell apart and I had to get creative in repairing them.  Fragile after so many years.  It's the most un-usable scope I have, but I sort of adore the little bugger! 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 11:45:25 pm by Runco990 »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106616 on: November 10, 2021, 09:47:06 pm »
And what the world needed - another talking multimeter:
http://www.microseveninc.com/vm10brochure.htm
The one from Voltcraft was bad enough while it kept to one language.

Note to self: Shake it off! Look at something functional and precise and forget that it exists!

While I can get behind the sentiment, let's not forget that there are blind and partially sighted folks in the world. (I would advise that they stick to low voltage work for obvious reasons.)

For everybody else being in possession of, or using, a talking multimeter should probably result in them being handed over to Saskia for (non-fun) punishment. I'm sure that she's inventive enough to rise to the occasion.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106617 on: November 11, 2021, 12:03:04 am »
]Hmmm... any difference in the recommended soldering process between the two? Do either of them have a published recommended handling process for hand-soldering/proto work?

mnem
 :-/O

Nope, standard JEDEC default profiles, just like everything else.

Hand soldering 0.5mm pitch 48 pin QFNs? For masochists only and definitely something you won't find in the manufacturer's literature who would expect them only to be reflow soldered.
Hand-soldered doesn't necessarily mean with a iron anymore; hasn't for a long time. 😉

The difference I can see here being whether you're relying 100% on the process control to ensure quality of soldering on product that may never be seen by a human being vs proto work where you have eyes on the product to ensure quality.

The prior relies heavily on process control at every step in chain of custody, where the latter scenario it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect someone to ensure a part gets properly dehydrated before assembly to ensure it doesn't explode when soldered.

mnem
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106618 on: November 11, 2021, 12:59:57 am »
NAILED IT!

R396 (2.2M/.25W) on main board cracked. That fixed 75% of it. The intensity control is also spotty and deoxit doesn't help. But I'll never find a control with the special shaft so going to have to live with it. It's not bad and the scope is serviceable. Now if I can just get it back together without breaking something else.  ;D

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/icCuhm.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/3Duc89.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/VNOdZQ.jpg


Nice. I replaced all the carbon comps in my unit as a matter of course after I found a few of them had drifted out of tolerance.
I also had to replace one of the gold PCB interconnect terminals after the previous owner's ham-fisted attempts at repair had broken one, which meant I was able to acquire the scope for cheap. :)

Mine has fuzzy traces on Channel 1 in the 0.5, 5, 50 Volts/Div ranges and I have to adjust things so the traces don't jump around as you change ranges too.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106619 on: November 11, 2021, 01:20:10 am »
]Hmmm... any difference in the recommended soldering process between the two? Do either of them have a published recommended handling process for hand-soldering/proto work?

mnem
 :-/O

Nope, standard JEDEC default profiles, just like everything else.

Hand soldering 0.5mm pitch 48 pin QFNs? For masochists only and definitely something you won't find in the manufacturer's literature who would expect them only to be reflow soldered.
Hand-soldered doesn't necessarily mean with a iron anymore; hasn't for a long time. 😉

The difference I can see here being whether you're relying 100% on the process control to ensure quality of soldering on product that may never be seen by a human being vs proto work where you have eyes on the product to ensure quality.

The prior relies heavily on process control at every step in chain of custody, where the latter scenario it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect someone to ensure a part gets properly dehydrated before assembly to ensure it doesn't explode when soldered.

mnem
*whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...*

You ever done any pottery? It's exactly the same problem as stuff exploding in the kiln because it hasn't dried out properly first. It has to dry out s-l-o-w-l-y before hand or it goes POP from steam pressure when it's heated up quickly. Ideally however you're reflowing a component, whether on an industrial conveyor oven or waving a hot air stick at it, you want to be following the standard reflow profile as close as you can, which typically means only taking 3-5 minutes or so to go from cold to 200+ centigrade. That's too quick for internal moisture to get out and POP!

Standard recovery treatment for stuff that's been out too long and exceeded its atmospheric moisture times, or been kept uncontrolled, is a 24 hour bake at 125ºC with a slow ramp up at the start. It's not something you can adjust for in prototype work just by taking the reflow slowly or warming the parts up for a few minutes beforehand. If you don't want to risk wasting parts or worse still have incipient part failures you can't see, you stick with the rules for any kind of reflow, oven, wand, production, prototype, it doesn't matter what because the whole part has to get hot enough for reflow, and that's hot enough for the popcorn effect.

I was explaining this to SWMBO earlier and instead of glazing over and saying "Yes dear" in all the right places she got it straight away because she's a potter. Some clays are more sensitive to this than others, equally some moulding compounds are more sensitive than others. Similarly, geometry has an effect in both IC packaging and pottery. So, what we've got here are two packages of the exact same geometry and exactly the same moulding compound and ST says MSL 3 while Lattice say MSL 1. It makee no sensee. What works for one ought to work for the other; both vendors ought to have followed the JEDEC J-STD-20 test protocol for the parts to arrive at their MSL ratings and they ought to be the same.

The only thing that would make sense is if Lattice's dies are more robust than STs, and ST detected die related damage that Lattice didn't. Without checking, from memory the two parts are at similar technology levels (i.e. semiconductor feature sizes). The ST dies are a little larger - 3X3mm versus 2x2mm for Lattice (again, from memory).

At the end of the day it's just an oddity, a curiosity. I'll treat each part according to the respective manufacturer recommendations - it won't hurt me any.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106620 on: November 11, 2021, 02:11:46 am »
Hmmm Cerebus's SWMBO is potty which may explain why he is like he is.  :-DD
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106621 on: November 11, 2021, 02:51:28 am »
@Cerebus -

Yes, I knew this. Aboot both subjects. For similar reasons to those you describe; mum was an accomplished ceramics artisan.

But for the QFN, only because I got curious aboot the nature of the packaging in some of my samples from TI and read up on the reasons why before applying them to PCBs; I never worked with anything in production where it was relevant, and my adventures in BGA rework were infrequent enough that it was easier just to buy from a reputable vendor who packaged parts correctly and follow the handling instructions included with the part. ;)

One of the weaknesses of being a generalist; you can become somewhat competent at a lot of things, but becoming truly expert in almost anything requires enough time and talent that few can achieve such in more than a couple or three disciplines before running out of lifetime.

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106622 on: November 11, 2021, 03:36:53 am »
Same reason you don't put wet rocks around your campfire...
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106623 on: November 11, 2021, 06:16:02 am »
Outback firecrackers 😂
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #106624 on: November 11, 2021, 08:58:43 am »
TE incomming,
Just won my cheapest ever Fluke on ebay. A 5.5 digit DMM for 99p  :-DMM
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fluke-NetDAQ-2645a-46a-Networked-Data-Acquisition-Unit-/363608963162
OK it's not exactly a DMM, the local display is only 4.5 digits and it's a little beaten up but what do you expect for 99p?
It's misdescribed, it is the higher resolution 2640A not a 2645A. Importantly it comes with the input module and even a bunch of J type thermocouples with connectors.
I think nobody else bid as it's tatty and "Collection Only". But the description says "will post for £12"  ;D So total delivered price £12.99. These typically sell for >10x that.
There is the small issue of software. The current version is not cheap but the demo gives you 40 hours of logging time. I cna use that to configure it and it will then be mostly used as a 20 ch thermometer in local monitior mode.
I might be able to find the older software and run it on an old XP laptop.....
 
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