Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[TERRA Operative]

Those M2 MVNe SSD's like to run hot, they perform faster if they are a bit toasty, over-cooling them actually degrades performance.

[cyclin_al]

You're welcome! Glad if it helped.  As a computer nerd, I'd say get that cheap NVMe mounting/cooler kit on the way from Bezos' Crack Emporium so you have the hardware kit that comes with it for the next time you need it... and so you can put the cooler on next time you're in there.  Regular buna-n or hnbr rubber o-rings will work as a substitute for those rubber bands; once you have the thing stuck on there with the silicone pad, all they need to do is to do is keep the thing from sliding off due to gravity.

Just out of curiosity... have you been keeping that mesh in the front cover clean like we spoke of...? 

mnem
 

It gets vacuumed regularly.  That is mandatory.
Also, the vent on the bottom for the PSU builds up a layer of fur rather quickly.

-- the downsides to fur-kids; not that bad

[mansaxel]

...

Opened it up, only to find 2 Duracells in a very sorry state.  One of them was intact, but the other one had a serious case of Durchfall and shat its contents over itself, battery holder, and also left a string in the bottom of the case.  Both cells were around 680mV.  Fortunately the gunk cleaned up very easy, without a trace, and after rinsing the battery holder under running water and letting it dry out, fitting of new batteries restored both function and finish to the instrument.
...

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. Take it as a warning shot from Murphy. I will fill out the near miss incident report for you if you come join the NiMH club*. Like I always (OK, never) say, "Friends don't let friends use alkaline primary batteries in their test equipment."

* Yes, yes. ...if your meters support the lower voltage without crying.

The MetraHit probably does; it was in-spec, but only for 30 seconds, on <1V per cell.

I usually, when I go down that route, find that I've bought a buncha batteries, a charger, and then I first forget to have charged batteries, then I neglect the entire affair.  I probably need to make a proper project effort.

[mnementh]

Those M2 MVNe SSD's like to run hot, they perform faster if they are a bit toasty, over-cooling them actually degrades performance.

Oh good lord... that one again.  I've watched this one go back & forth in my gamer threads so many times I just wanna  a little when I see it.

Yes, there's a technical dissertation which says that certain NAND FLASH suffers less wear if operating in the JEDEC-spec ~40 degrees C range at the time of erasing/writing. This study was done under lab conditions which bear no resemblance to real-world usage, and those results have no material relevance to the NVMe drive's performance overall, nor the real-world implications of running the whole SSD at elevated temperatures, which are poorer cell self-healing and long-term data retention as well as the usual thermal expansion/contraction failures associated with BGA devices and microscopic traces on PCBs.

The dissertation also suggests that read performance is degraded, so any benefit of keeping the NAND FLASH hot is lost in the overall performance balance, and completely ignores the fact that the primary heat generator here is the controller chip, and it is the part likeliest to fail under heavy load, thermal or otherwise.

Even if you do give some credence to the "improved performance" interpretation of the dissertation, all you have to do is think aboot it for a moment to realize that attaching a single common heat sink, as these solutions are normally provided, will improve this condition by equalizing the temperature across the entire device, keeping the NAND much closer to the JEDEC-spec ~40 degrees C range. It will also also help normalize the temperature of the entire SSD, mitigating the above-mentioned thermal expansion/contraction failures associated with BGA devices and microscopic traces on PCBs. Well, in principle anyways.   

TL/DR: In my opinion, no there is no "magic of the SSD" thing going on here which works contrary to the basic engineering principle that in general, cooler electronics will be more likely to live long and prosper. This is just another case of some people reading some scholarly work and taking away one single soundbyte worth of information and running with it.

mnem
Keep your m.2 cool; she love you long time.

[Kosmic]

I have 2 HP Spectrum analyzer: 8568a, 3562a
They are in mint condition and working well but they are definitely taking too much room in my small space.

So I thinking to get rid of them and maybe buy some  more modern and more compact SA, what would be your advice?
My only concern is that no modern  SA is working under 9khz like the 3562A

It's nothing to do with "modern" SA. Modern ones are exactly like your old HP 8568s... they don't go down to DC.

Your 3562a is not a SA it's a DSA. DSA go down to DC but only go up to 100kHz....
So what you need if a modern SA plus a modern DSA.

Problem is... do DSA still exist today... I can't find any on Keysight's website.... maybe these things don't exist anymore ? People ?
Given the extremely low bandwidth, 100kHz, maybe today the DSA functionalities are merely some feature one can add as an option to a scope...
Maybe you can get one with a computer based user interface ? Just a small USB box for the analog front-end, and the software running on a computer ?

At any rate there is nothing wrong with modern SA,  they are just like the old ones frequency range-wise, no more no less.

That's fighting talk 
Most modern SAs are "Real Time"  FFT designs while older ones are swept superhetrodyne designs. There is a lot of difference.
See https://rfmw.em.keysight.com/wireless/helpfiles/89600b/webhelp/subsystems/concepts/Content/concepts_types_spec_an.htm
While the results look the same, both types can be set to give different or "incorrect" measurements of a signal. This has led to issues with FFTs being used for EMC compliance measurments for example. More up-todate standards give guidance on use of real time analysers. They should be better for EMC measurements but the standards were written around the swept instruments.

Eh ? What fighting talk ?!   I am all about peace and love 

You misread me, I was nowhere talking about the internal design of a modern SA versus old ones.

Concern of the OP was that modern SA didn't go to DC so only stated that well, old ones did not either !
Only his DSA did because well, it's a DSA not a general purpose SA. But his old HP SA does not go to DC neither do modern ones... internal construction was not a topic here 

9kHz is not DC 
Even the OP's 8568A is specified to 100Hz and it's a microwave swept analyser. I don't think the OP ever mentioned DC......

He did not but he did compare modern SA that typically go down to a few kHz, with his DSA which does go to DC. So that implies he expected modern SA to go to DC, so I simply wanted to point out to him that even his old SA did not go to DC, that general purpose SA don't go to DC, that his DSA could do it only because... well it's a DSA not a general purpose SA ! 

It looks like this morning no matter what I say people misread me so I think it must be something wrong with me, so will just turn off the computer and go do something else instead ! 

Concrete for the garage foundation is due to be delivered today 15H30, 6.8m3 of it.  Need to go out buy some beer to thank the few friends who will come to help me spread it evenly every where.

I have the feeling I just started the unwanted discussion 

Actually I own these two instruments to serve two different needs.
The 3562 will be used for low bandwidth /audio purposes  and the 8568A for everything else (instrument repair, radio oscillator debugging ...)

In my case I do mainly audio things and some instrument repair for which I need high bandwidth instruments.

Today the 3562 can probably be easily replaced with some PC+sound card solution or an Audio Precision if you have deep pockets.
I forgot to say that I also have a much smaller Ono Sokki CF-350Z, which goes from DC to 40Kz. It’s definitely not as good as the HP and offer less functionalities but it should be ok.

At the end I'm probably just looking for a modern and compact SA to replace the huge 8568A.
The 8568A has no special or fancy advanced functions but it work just great and it’s supper easy to use and reliable.
I'm just wondering if a Siglent, Rigol or other equivalent would be a valid alternative.


Alex

You can find a "Low Frequency Converter" from BG7TBL on ebay or aliexpress. Upconvert a signal from 1Hz - 2MHz to 10MHz - 12MHz so you can view any signal below 2Mhz on any Spectrum Analyzer. Just need to provide 10Mhz ref for the mixer.

I did some tests and disassembly a while ago.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2135890/#msg2135890

I don't use it often but seem to be working fine.

[Cerebus]

Rather than watching people repeat secondhand information about NAND FLASH performance versus temperature enquiring minds might like to read the apparent source for themselves: https://doi.org/10.1109/LED.2017.2675160.

The relevant bit (my emphasis) seems to be:

Finally, while the RTN [Random Telegraph Noise] distribution of 2-D arrays is almost temperature independent, that of 3-D arrays is shown to display a non-negligible enlargement when temperature is decreased.

Reading the whole paper is required to understand that quote in context, but I suspect that is the phrase that people have latched onto.

[mnementh]

Thanks for finding that C; my Google-Fu is weak this morning and all I could find was this, which is also often quoted/linked in this discussion:

https://www.eeweb.com/industrial-temperature-and-nand-flash-in-ssd-products/

While it is a bit easier to digest, it is also almost 10 years out of date and still supports the same contusion I came to.

mnem
*toddles off to do morning things*

[mnementh]

   

Semi On-Topic: Workspace Refinement

Addition of this recycled DVD rack has greatly improved workflow; by relocating the PDU upgrade I did last week, it places all my most-used power tools right at hand and on a single breaker/switch. This puts my DUT/PSU outlet strip all together on the opposite side of the bench, and all of it is controlled by a old Kensington Masterpiece outlet strip I scored a while back. It has Tripplite IsoBar-licensed filter/suppression (supposedly) and 3 different zones relay-controlled by that little switchbox on the benchtop. 

Addition of that cheap drawer unit for most used supplies and tools as well as a reorganization of the IKEA drawer unit I use as a scope cart are next; it will become the "most used tools drawers" in my little "cockpit layout" work area.


mnem
now I have no excuse for not starting any of a hundred other projects which need my attention...

[psykok]

I have 2 HP Spectrum analyzer: 8568a, 3562a
They are in mint condition and working well but they are definitely taking too much room in my small space.

So I thinking to get rid of them and maybe buy some  more modern and more compact SA, what would be your advice?
My only concern is that no modern  SA is working under 9khz like the 3562A

It's nothing to do with "modern" SA. Modern ones are exactly like your old HP 8568s... they don't go down to DC.

Your 3562a is not a SA it's a DSA. DSA go down to DC but only go up to 100kHz....
So what you need if a modern SA plus a modern DSA.

Problem is... do DSA still exist today... I can't find any on Keysight's website.... maybe these things don't exist anymore ? People ?
Given the extremely low bandwidth, 100kHz, maybe today the DSA functionalities are merely some feature one can add as an option to a scope...
Maybe you can get one with a computer based user interface ? Just a small USB box for the analog front-end, and the software running on a computer ?

At any rate there is nothing wrong with modern SA,  they are just like the old ones frequency range-wise, no more no less.

That's fighting talk 
Most modern SAs are "Real Time"  FFT designs while older ones are swept superhetrodyne designs. There is a lot of difference.
See https://rfmw.em.keysight.com/wireless/helpfiles/89600b/webhelp/subsystems/concepts/Content/concepts_types_spec_an.htm
While the results look the same, both types can be set to give different or "incorrect" measurements of a signal. This has led to issues with FFTs being used for EMC compliance measurments for example. More up-todate standards give guidance on use of real time analysers. They should be better for EMC measurements but the standards were written around the swept instruments.

Eh ? What fighting talk ?!   I am all about peace and love 

You misread me, I was nowhere talking about the internal design of a modern SA versus old ones.

Concern of the OP was that modern SA didn't go to DC so only stated that well, old ones did not either !
Only his DSA did because well, it's a DSA not a general purpose SA. But his old HP SA does not go to DC neither do modern ones... internal construction was not a topic here 

9kHz is not DC 
Even the OP's 8568A is specified to 100Hz and it's a microwave swept analyser. I don't think the OP ever mentioned DC......

He did not but he did compare modern SA that typically go down to a few kHz, with his DSA which does go to DC. So that implies he expected modern SA to go to DC, so I simply wanted to point out to him that even his old SA did not go to DC, that general purpose SA don't go to DC, that his DSA could do it only because... well it's a DSA not a general purpose SA ! 

It looks like this morning no matter what I say people misread me so I think it must be something wrong with me, so will just turn off the computer and go do something else instead ! 

Concrete for the garage foundation is due to be delivered today 15H30, 6.8m3 of it.  Need to go out buy some beer to thank the few friends who will come to help me spread it evenly every where.

I have the feeling I just started the unwanted discussion 

Actually I own these two instruments to serve two different needs.
The 3562 will be used for low bandwidth /audio purposes  and the 8568A for everything else (instrument repair, radio oscillator debugging ...)

In my case I do mainly audio things and some instrument repair for which I need high bandwidth instruments.

Today the 3562 can probably be easily replaced with some PC+sound card solution or an Audio Precision if you have deep pockets.
I forgot to say that I also have a much smaller Ono Sokki CF-350Z, which goes from DC to 40Kz. It’s definitely not as good as the HP and offer less functionalities but it should be ok.

At the end I'm probably just looking for a modern and compact SA to replace the huge 8568A.
The 8568A has no special or fancy advanced functions but it work just great and it’s supper easy to use and reliable.
I'm just wondering if a Siglent, Rigol or other equivalent would be a valid alternative.


Alex

You can find a "Low Frequency Converter" from BG7TBL on ebay or aliexpress. Upconvert a signal from 1Hz - 2MHz to 10MHz - 12MHz so you can view any signal below 2Mhz on any Spectrum Analyzer. Just need to provide 10Mhz ref for the mixer.

I did some tests and disassembly a while ago.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2135890/#msg2135890

I don't use it often but seem to be working fine.

Thanks to point me back to this device, I will probably give it a shot .


Alex

[med6753]

The American health care system sucks donkey dick. I supposedly had an doctor's appointment today with my primary care physician to have routine diabetic checkup. Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child".  Just take my blood for the diabetic screening and let me get the hell out of here. And yes, how do I feel right now? That I want to kill someone for wasting my fucking time. What should have been maybe 15 minutes max became almost an hour and a half. And I've been fasting for over 12 hours with no food and especially no coffee and I am not a happy camper. Oh yes, even though I had prostate surgery earlier this year and everything was pronounced "good" the dr still wanted to go up the arse and check it's size. I guess he gets his jolly's doing that. Glad that's over.   

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

The capacitors showed up for the Fluke 8060A. Tomorrow I'll get that done.   

[Andrew_Debbie]

Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child". 

Don't get the from the NHS.   Less than 5 minutes for a blood draw with a nurse and out the door.

In the US they throw as much at you as possible to run up billings.   In the UK they do as little as possible to save money.

UK:   "Why don't we wait a few days. I could send you for an X-Ray, but there is no need. If it gets better in a few days it was bruised.  If it still hurts it is cracked"

US:  "A nurse will be in to draw bloods before we send you down for an MRI. If we don't find anything, we may want to admit you for more tests and observations"

[Specmaster]

The American health care system sucks donkey dick. I supposedly had an doctor's appointment today with my primary care physician to have routine diabetic checkup. Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child".  Just take my blood for the diabetic screening and let me get the hell out of here. And yes, how do I feel right now? That I want to kill someone for wasting my fucking time. What should have been maybe 15 minutes max became almost an hour and a half. And I've been fasting for over 12 hours with no food and especially no coffee and I am not a happy camper. Oh yes, even though I had prostate surgery earlier this year and everything was pronounced "good" the dr still wanted to go up the arse and check it's size. I guess he gets his jolly's doing that. Glad that's over.   

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

The capacitors showed up for the Fluke 8060A. Tomorrow I'll get that done.   

Yep, I had frost on my car this morning as well, winter is well on its way now.

[mansaxel]

The 8060 is very different from the other meters in the 802[0-9] series, and has lots more bits and bobs. The others are much simpler, and I remember my foray into my 8022 resulting in just 3 "Krusty Kaps" found after a thorough search.

Are those more fine quality Panasonic (Matsushita) leak dispensers?  Seen far too many 80's & 90's capacitors ozzing & corroding stuff from them (even NOS), to put me off buying from them. 

Might be, and the colour indeed suggests it -- I'm not at home right now, instead spending quality evening time at the hospital with youngest one who's probably got a broken pinky toe. I think I've saved them in my sad caps bag, so I'll check if I remember.

They were not in the sad caps bag, but in a separate bag in the Kökkenmödding (translated to "kitchen midden" in English) that is my electronics workshop.  Yes, there are pointed triangles on them, indicating Matsushita.

[tggzzz]

Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child". 

Don't get the from the NHS.   Less than 5 minutes for a blood draw with a nurse and out the door.

That fast? Mine, this morning, took 7 minutes. But that did include a brief conversation about what booster covid vaccination I might get.

In the US they throw as much at you as possible to run up billings.   In the UK they do as little as possible to save money.

Not quite. They will suggest things that have a reasonable chance of catching things before they are a real problem, e.g. diabetes, glaucoma, prostate, cholesterol.

The rationale for each of these is spelled out on the National Instutite of Clinical Excellence (NICE) website, and is based on "does it work sufficiently reliably" and "quality adjusted life years". Long live NICE

[Cerebus]

Thanks for finding that C; my Google-Fu is weak this morning and all I could find was this, which is also often quoted/linked in this discussion:

https://www.eeweb.com/industrial-temperature-and-nand-flash-in-ssd-products/

While it is a bit easier to digest, it is also almost 10 years out of date and still supports the same contusion I came to.

mnem
*toddles off to do morning things*

Are you saying that you left the facts a bit bruised? 

[Cerebus]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

[mansaxel]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Anything can be an euphemism. It just takes a certain mindset. And you, dear aardvark, show all evidence of possessing it. The naughty language gene, so cherished.

[med6753]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Not intentionally. But if you regard it as such I typically don't have it out flapping in the breeze checking air temperatures.   

[mnementh]

The American health care system sucks donkey dick. I supposedly had an doctor's appointment today with my primary care physician to have routine diabetic checkup. Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child".  Just take my blood for the diabetic screening and let me get the hell out of here. And yes, how do I feel right now? That I want to kill someone for wasting my fucking time. What should have been maybe 15 minutes max became almost an hour and a half. And I've been fasting for over 12 hours with no food and especially no coffee and I am not a happy camper. Oh yes, even though I had prostate surgery earlier this year and everything was pronounced "good" the dr still wanted to go up the arse and check it's size. I guess he gets his jolly's doing that. Glad that's over.   

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

The capacitors showed up for the Fluke 8060A. Tomorrow I'll get that done.   

You were such a good boy med... you dinn't kill nobody nor nuthin'! We're so proud of you! 

Here, have a lollipop!   

mnem

[mnementh]

Thanks for finding that C; my Google-Fu is weak this morning and all I could find was this, which is also often quoted/linked in this discussion:

https://www.eeweb.com/industrial-temperature-and-nand-flash-in-ssd-products/

While it is a bit easier to digest, it is also almost 10 years out of date and still supports the same contusion I came to.

mnem
*toddles off to do morning things*

Are you saying that you left the facts a bit bruised? 

No, quite the obverse; as is often the case with men dwagons of my years, the facts often leave me somewhat bruised. 

mnem
Just my ego for now; the physical bruising comes later, when SWMBO finds oot...

[mnementh]

Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child". 

Don't get the from the NHS.   Less than 5 minutes for a blood draw with a nurse and out the door.

That fast? Mine, this morning, took 7 minutes. But that did include a brief conversation about what booster covid vaccination I might get.

In the US they throw as much at you as possible to run up billings.   In the UK they do as little as possible to save money.

Not quite. They will suggest things that have a reasonable chance of catching things before they are a real problem, e.g. diabetes, glaucoma, prostate, cholesterol.

The rationale for each of these is spelled out on the National Instutite of Clinical Excellence (NICE) website, and is based on "does it work sufficiently reliably" and "quality adjusted life years". Long live NICE

It is also a matter of collating data. Answers to these questions from a person with a known "condition" become datapoints which help predict/prevent future cases and help them figure out things like if there's a correlation between your particular prostate issue and the diabetes screenings, etc.

Thanks for being a good lab rat, med!

mnem

[mnementh]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Anything can be an euphemism. It just takes a certain mindset. And you, dear aardvark, show all evidence of possessing it. The naughty language gene, so cherished.

"nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say no more..."

mnem
*pulls up a couple extra lawn chairs next to his mind in the gutter* Come, sit a spell... I have drinks with little umbrellas in them!

[mnementh]

As predicted.......0 degrees C this morning and frost on the pumpkin. I missed my calling as a weatherperson. 

Is "frost on the pumpkin" a euphemism ? If so: [congratulatory shoulder punch].   

Not intentionally. But if you regard it as such I typically don't have it out flapping in the breeze checking air temperatures.   

Northern Life Lesson number 267: Don't take a whizz off the back porch in February and forget aboot the frosty aluminum storm door! The wind WILL pick that moment to make itself known!

mnem
true story.

[Saskia]

If I see those pendulums without having invited their owner I,'ll dance the nutcracker suite ...

[duckduck]

Instead it turned into one of these Medicare mandated "Feel good" checkups with lots of questions. "Do you feel sad today". "Did your mother deny you cookies as a child". 

Don't get the from the NHS.   Less than 5 minutes for a blood draw with a nurse and out the door.

In the US they throw as much at you as possible to run up billings.   In the UK they do as little as possible to save money.

UK:   "Why don't we wait a few days. I could send you for an X-Ray, but there is no need. If it gets better in a few days it was bruised.  If it still hurts it is cracked"

US:  "A nurse will be in to draw bloods before we send you down for an MRI. If we don't find anything, we may want to admit you for more tests and observations"

Today, I'm driving my wife to an MRI for a headache. I am not kidding.


EDIT:

We have fancy insurance.


EDIT EDIT:

med, those questions kill me, too. "Do you drink to excess?" "Do you use recreational drugs?" "Are you getting enough sex?" "Do you wear your seatbelt?" "Do you own firearms?"


EDIT EDIT EDIT:

Whoever mandated those questions is clearly kept awake at night by the fear that someone, somewhere is having fun.