Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Saskia]

we had joints, we had fun, we had PacMan for the SUN ...

Got my first SUN in 1987 or 1988 if I remember correctly. It was a 3/50 with the brand new SunOS 4.3. Then went to a 4/110 and SparcStation IPC.

[Robert763]

<SNIP>

Hi Alex,
If the high performance of the 8568A is not important to you then a Siglent SA should do you fine. I'm sure @Tautech can advise what is the best "bang for buck" at the moment. Note that some options can be "released" once the warranty has expired. Personally I'd recommend Siglent over Rigol.


"high performance of the 8568A" why that ? should I understand that none of the affordable/cheap SA will be able to provide similar functionality /performance?

A modern low cost SA will provide more features and functionality than 8568A but not performance.
Performance in this case is accuracy, stability, resolution bandwidth, noise, dynamic range etc.
Remember that the 8565A was HP's highest performance RF SA at the time (The 8568A also covered above 1.5GHz) They cost around $35,000 new the laate 80's. Thats about $77,000 today.
They are hard to beat  in terms of raw performance. Many are still in regular use and they are still supported by Keysight.

[mansaxel]

we had joints, we had fun, we had PacMan for the SUN ...

Got my first SUN in 1987 or 1988 if I remember correctly. It was a 3/50 with the brand new SunOS 4.3. Then went to a 4/110 and SparcStation IPC.

My first Real Computer is a SparcStation IPC, with the full 48MiB RAM, and a retrofitted 1GiB IBM hdd. It ran SunOS 5.7 last time I booted it. I've never had it in graphics mode, only serial console.  Other than that, I've got a SS5, an US1, an Ultra 10, a SunBlade 150, a couple of rackmount Netra servers, ranging from the cheapest server Sun ever made, with 40GiB IDE drives and 256 MiB RAM, to a full Ultra 60 4-CPU 4GiB RAM monster.  I've also got a T5220 server, for good measure.



Other brands are represented too; there is a substantial heap of IBM P-series iron, an AlphaStation, and some other bits and bobs.

[Neper]

Can I respectfully ask that folks please  trim their quotes a bit to make reading things a bit easier.

Amen, Brother. 

[mnementh]

I mean, yeah... but even if all you get is a good 1150VA XFMR for your 24 quid, you're in the black on it; you've got a box to build any damn kind of PSU inside of you feel like. As long as you can local pick-up,

mnem
 

WA7 post code - Runcorn.   That's about 75 miles each way, mostly on good roads.    I'd have to stop to charge / eat, so the trip would end up taking 1/2 a day.   I'd do it if I had a use for it.


Tempted, but not going.

Damn... thought I had you.    Maybe next time...

mnem

[Saskia]

mansaxel: I switched from Sun to SGI, but also had a Digital Alpha running Digital Unix, several Decstations, IRM RS6k, etc. plus about one of each all Sun model up to Ultra 60.
SGI: 3030, 4D20, 4D85, 4D25, 4D30, Indigo, Indigo2, Power Indigo2, Crimson, O2, Octane, Origin 200.
That was an expensive collection ...

[tautech]

Hi Alex,
If the high performance of the 8568A is not important to you then a Siglent SA should do you fine. I'm sure @Tautech can advise what is the best "bang for buck" at the moment. Note that some options can be "released" once the warranty has expired. Personally I'd recommend Siglent over Rigol.

As you mentioned before SSA3021X Plus is where it's at for the ability to upgrade to 3.2 GHz and even convert to the SVA model although you need know what you're doing with Linux. Plenty of good guidance in the forum for that.
SSA3kX Plus and SVA1kX models have identical SA capability but the VNA capability adds cream to the cake that minimizes the need for a RLB unless you need the isolation. Good little single port VNA.
Takes a while to get your head around total capability of these things if your RF knowledge is lacking (mine is) however very reluctant to ever sell my SVA1032X.
Good luck with your decision Alex.

[tautech]

Got the Tek 212 mini pulled apart again. Pretty much traced the intermittent trace issue to the entire HV section dancing around. One minute reads correct -982V and another minute drops to -910V then back up again. That naturally causes focus issues and intensity issues. And of course while troubleshooting the damn thing goes nice and stable.



It's near impossible to safely probe the bottom board in the vicinity of the HV area so in looking over the schematic going to mass replace all the HV diodes and capacitors. I'm bound to get lucky with that tactic. I'll check the resistors and I may decide to mass replace them too.   

Ohhh, a quintupler for the EHT. Nice. Shame about all the possibly troublesome interconnects..... 

[mnementh]

Surely it must be possible to write a script that will boot your PC and then load all of your 50 tabs  (50  ) automatically for you so that by the normal time of day when you would normally be at the PC, it was already running for you without all of that wasted power?

This rocket technology is called hibernate    And at least Firefox can reload all tabs on start, if you allow it to do so.
But Vince may have his reasons for his way. It would waste too much energy for me to leave the computer on all day (and it is relatively low power in idle), so I set up my computer to go to sleep on its own after a short time being unattended.

In Vince's defence the one thing I have found flakiest in Linux in all the years (see below) I have been using it is sleep/hibernate functionality. It is very sensitive to you having the right hardware in the right combination.

Agreed; this is exactly the reason I made a point of mentioning that the build of Mint 20.1 I tried handled sleep/resume as nicely as OSX.

Honestly, the more I think aboot it, the more I think Vince just needs my old MacPro.

mnem

[cyclin_al]

yes. While I am at it: Z390 / i7 9700 / 32 GB RAM all new. Interested ?

Nope it looks like a full size ATX board, way too big. I need a uATX or else it won't fit inside the old IBM Aptiva case I want to use. Even then not all uATX can fit.

I remember years ago I did measure the available space in the case and checked two dozen uATX boards. Only a few of them would actually fit....

I don't need lots of PCI slots and can do with on-board graphics, so I can make do with a uATX form factor. All I need is Ethernet / RJ45 and audio output, and any uATX has that I think.... Only thing I am not willing to compromise, is RAM capability. Needs to be able to handle at least 32GB or else in just 10 years it will run out of steam again and I will be back to square one... 

I'm going to suggest something here, and not trying to belittle your desire to "not waste a perfectly good case" but quite frankly... your case is not perfectly good anymore. It was designed around ~100-200W TDP including graphics solution. Modern PCs start at twice that with a entry-level office-workload GPU or APU.

I spent quite some time trying to "keep my sleeper look" vintage Chieftec Dragon box aboot the time I started rebuilding my AMD 1055T; in the end I gave up and spent $55 on a simple glass-sided box that had room built-in for a modern full-length GPU and had actual front-back airflow.

Modern cases are designed around straight-through airflow, and modern MBs, CPUs and GPUs demand it. The layout and airflow needs of the VRMs and even the chipset cooler demand it; even modern SSDs generate enough heat that they will choke and flip out without it.

On top of that, the newer boxes come with easily removable quick-change drive cages, oodles more front I/O and and most importantly, they isolate the airflow for the PSU from the rest of the case. On top of that, you can't reasonably put current versions of USB in the front of that; the connectivity is completely different and requires a new USB header/connector which is physically larger than old USB 2.0 etc.

I realize you don't need glass sides or the LEDs that I as a gamer like; but the airflow is something that horrible box just cannot give you unless you're prepared to go Totally Jethro on its beige ass with a power drill and just embrace the ghetto-fab. That front panel just makes my inner PC builder scream "Starved for fucking air!"

Now you may look at my liquid-cooled stuff and think I'm being overly dramatic; but the fact is that air-cooled CPU and GPU need more airflow than liquid-cooled, they need more volume and more velocity. Neither of which that box can give you unless you're literally ready to rip its face off and drill a million huge holes in it.

Do yourself a favor and let the poor thing die. It has given yoeman service for decades; it has earned its ticket to the Elysian fields.

mnem


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/random-mode-old-school-iron-1055trx580-rebuild-in-modern-gamer-case/msg2227704/#msg2227704

He's not looking for anything as powerful as I understand it, he seems to be perfectly happy with it running at 2.6 Ghz, @ 65W TDP. I think he would accept a performance boost but still at 65W TDP or preferably less. One reason I think for the lower power is that it runs 24/7, possibly Bitcoin mining?

Personally, I'd rather run at far higher speeds and get more done, mine runs at 4 Ghz 125W TDP and will accept an overclock to 4.2 Ghz, but I'm happy to prolong its life, so I leave it at its native speed. Mine only runs 24/7 if a do a complete scan of the hard drives as it has 4 TB of storage attached, and it can take a while to chunk through that so it gets left on overnight sometimes, otherwise its normally on about 18 hours a day.

Is anybody's forum search tool working?  If I click onto a second page of search results, I get nothing 

What I was searching for is a discussion on this thread around the summer (northern hemisphere) of 2020 about high SSD temperatures and how removing the heatsink of a NVMe SSD might improve the airflow to improve cooling...

All that to say, temperatures inside the case and adequate airflow are important.  I did change my fan profile settings in BIOS based on that converstation to get better cooling 

I also want to say that I think the dragon is trying to be helpful in a general sense.  He is offering up suggestions to think about and that could work well, but they are "outside the box" so to speak.  No need to get all personal about it.  Someone else in a similar situation may benefit, even though the suggestions do not exactly match perfectly what is desired.

[cyclin_al]

I almost forgot to post these, but last Thursday my son and me went to RAF Lakenheath and RAF Mildenhall as it was a nice day, and we also had been tipped off that Boeing were going to be delivering  4 new F15s to their new owners and that they were stopping overnight at Mildenhall and here a few photos from that trip. They were shot RAW and I normally only shoot in JPG mode, and it's taken a bit of time to locate my copy of Photoshop to edit them and convert into JPGs to reduce the file size.

The following photos are all taken at Mildenhall on that afternoon.

Edit: The P3 photo was taken by my son as this was taking off just as we were pulling up, so he jumped out and snapped it while I parked the car.

Wow, still flying Orions.  Impressive how that one does not look ratty and at end of life.  How old are they now?
Then again, there is not much choice ever since the Nimrod crashed into Lake Ontario...
Then again, the Aurora is still flying here in the GWN.  These had a design life of approximately 25 years.  The batch in the GWN were bought used at 24 years old and must be around 45 years old now 

[cyclin_al]

Dogs have masters,
Cats have staff.


I don't fall into either category - but somehow I seem to know what the inside of the dog house looks like .... much better than I think I should.   

That is exactly why I built the dog house with adequate insulation and suitable dimensions.
In winter, I hope the dog is sent to the dog house rather than myself alone... 

[cyclin_al]

I have already stated my reasons for low power -> Not waste costly electricity + make it low noise/quiet + make it easier thermally to fit into the old Aptiva case I want to use. Dragon please don't reply or I will cut your tail. Unlike you, I did read your message carefully so I know what you actually think, I took note of it, believe it or not. Don't need more of it though.

Bitcoin mining  ? No, not at all, I am not into bitcoin or crypto mining at all, never will.  I keep the computer running 24/7 purely for availability. I want it ot be ready to go instantly no matter what time of the day or night I might want to. Just like I do'nt want to have to wait if I have an urgent need to go to the loo.. last thing I want is to have to boot and set up a computer and type a password and start an app before the loo will let me unload my stuff.
Just like you expect a light switch to be immediately available. I did try 15 years ago to compromise and gave the "sleep" or "hibernate" modes a chance...but it at least in Linux it does not "just work" on my Desktop, no matter what the H/W. Either does not work or works unreliably or sometime freezes or what not. It's just not reliable enough that I can contemplate using it, far from it. No, even 15 years later I I doubt it works today, Linux rarely solves problems, it only pretends they are working on it.. or sometimes they just say you are doing it wrong, it's a feature not a bug ! 
Last week I got a notification about a bug report I filed on Ubuntu... 15 years ago. 


Personally, I'd rather run at far higher speeds and get more done, mine runs at 4 Ghz 125W TDP and will accept an overclock to 4.2 Ghz, but I'm happy to prolong its life, so I leave it at its native speed.

The computer I'm using right now, boots to Ubuntu 20.04LTS from cold in 30 seconds. 



Ubuntu isn't for everyone, but it does work on modern hardware.   Most of the software  I use is  available native on Ubuntu:   MATLAB, MS Teams, Remmina, fsl*, psychtoolbox, various development environments, Kicad  X-Plane 11.  There is browser  based Office for Outlook,  One Drive, Word.  This computer is set up dual boot with Win10 for Photoshop, Illustator, games and TE firmware updates.

On this hardware, X-Plane 11 has a slightly higher frame rate on Ubuntu 20.04 then it does on Win10.    Not enough to matter TBH and I usually use X-Plane on the Windows side to keep games and work seperate.


Here is the hardware:


Asus Q370M-C Micro ATX LGA 1151 v2 Socket DDR4 x4 2666MHz VGA HDMI 2x DisplayPort   --   Typical modern buisness motherboard.
Intel Core i7-8700
16GB 2400MHz DDR4 PC4-19200 CL17 Dual Ranked x8 based Unbuffered NON-ECC 1.2V 1024Meg x 64
WD Green 240GB M.2 2280 SSD 3D Nand  (Ubuntu)
WD Blue 512GB SSD for Windows.   

Ubuntu ran on this hardware in January 2020 with zero issues.   By then the Q370 chipset had been out for about a year.

May 2020 I added:
Palet GTX 1650Super  graphics card and a 500W power supply.     The  open source drivers that come with Ubuntu are not very good.   Installing the nvidia driver was a minor annoyance



Before the graphics card, the power consumption was quite low.  Even with the card in it isn't bad unless I'm using the GPU.




* fsl is a collection of tools for analysis of MRI, fMRI and DTI data -- > https://fsl.fmrib.ox.ac.uk/fsl/fslwiki

You might be forgetting Vince's post from several months ago (by my leaky memory).
The key thing is to keep web pages or anything from the internet loaded up.
As I recall, his internet is abysmally slow, such that refreshing or reloading web pages is to be avoided at all costs...
Vince's browser tabs count was one of the highest posted in this thread.

If you consider boot-up plus web reloading time, I assume this becomes unacceptable in Vince's terms.

EDIT:  It eventually came up ... never mind, I am late to the table as usual...

[factory]

Some idiot used it in a high energy HV circuit which is a no-no and lucky if they are still alive. And no way would I trust that probe now. It's toast. 

Edit....or perhaps that's a burn from a soldering iron. Either way it's no way for that probe.

I think it would be perfect for the HP linear power supply I posted a few days ago.   -->   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194468003842


I'm strangely drawn to the challenge of repairing / restoring that HP 6264B.     It is such a disaster.  The PCB is burned.  The transformer looks like it got a bit warm.

As I said the previous time, the PCB is not burned, it's discoloured above where the current shunt resistor is and around a couple of smaller power resistors, the joints of those would need re-soldering, much the same as 30 to 40 year old BR stuff I once worked on.

More of a concern is the corrosion, the panel meters could be ruined as a result.
Yes it's way too much money and if anyone isn't local they want another £65 to ship it. 

I do have this garden ornament, was very cheap & local to me, at least one of the panel meters is buggered, rusty component leads and some seized controls.
Here are some pictures of this derelict Harrison 802B PSU, I forgot to post any when I last mentioned it.


David

[Andrew_Debbie]

My first was System V Release 4 on a PDP-11/34.   Oh wait that isn't Linux.

Debbie still has a Sun SPARC at work.  Has not been used for many years....

[factory]

Something in much better condition for those in the US, a little Sony/Tek oscilloscope.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294512979599



David

[med6753]

Something in much better condition for those in the US, a little Sony/Tek oscilloscope.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294512979599



David

Tempting, but no, I'll pass.

[mnementh]

...You might be forgetting Vince's post from several months ago (by my leaky memory). The key thing is to keep web pages or anything from the internet loaded up. As I recall, his internet is abysmally slow, such that refreshing or reloading web pages is to be avoided at all costs... Vince's browser tabs count was one of the highest posted in this thread.   If you consider boot-up plus web reloading time, I assume this becomes unacceptable in Vince's terms.

pffffftttttttttt! 50 tabs...? I have more than that open after I get fed up and thin the herd... 

And I sleep/resume on two different personal confusers dozens of times a day.

mnem
I paid good money for all this RAM. Why would I not use it?

[mnementh]

Is anybody's forum search tool working?  If I click onto a second page of search results, I get nothing 

What I was searching for is a discussion on this thread around the summer (northern hemisphere) of 2020 about high SSD temperatures and how removing the heatsink of a NVMe SSD might improve the airflow to improve cooling...

All that to say, temperatures inside the case and adequate airflow are important.  I did change my fan profile settings in BIOS based on that converstation to get better cooling 

I just tried and I found this:

@mnem,
So far I like that case.  The mesh seems to be good to keep cat & dog fur out of the interior.  Thanks for the note; I will keep an eye on it to keep the mesh clear so the cooling does not become a problem.  That reminds me to check the SSD temperature at some point.  The WD black SSD has a do not remove serial number sticker right where the ASRock B550 motherboard SSD heat sink makes contact.   At some point when I have spare time, I will have to compare it without the SSD heat sink installed.

Followed it for like 5 pages but no further response on the SSD Temps question.

General answer: It depends on the cooler. If the cooler is actually a decent bit of metal mass and some proper fins, even if they are short, yes it is better to have the heat sink provided the thermal compound/silicone thermal pad makes proper contact with the FLASH RAM and Controller chips.

When NVMe drives were still new tech, there was a flurry of cheap-shit stamped aluminum heat... ummm... well, calling them even "heat-spreaders" would be unduly generous. Many of them were designed expressly for looks, and did not make proper contact with one of more of the above chips, and so of course the /reddits went fuxxoring cray-cray over it when it was found some of them actually caused the SSD to run hotter than without.



Bottom line is these are a very fast high-speed controller; they make some real heat and need both proper airflow and a decent heat-sink. This latter can be a problem, especially in the 2nd slot, which is often partially obfuscated by a large GPU. If you look where the coolant lines meet my Aorus GPU, you can just see the lower 1/4 of the identical heat-sink on drive 1 of my RAID.



Even this little cheapie does work to help drop temp, as it is shaped correctly to not get hung up on stuff and the thick silicone pad can actually make contact with both controller and RAM chips. I bought it mostly to get the mounting hardware for a data drive for the boi's gaming rig and because it was only CAD$7 next-day off Amazon.

I checked it carefully to make sure it made proper contact with both RAM and controller chips; I was not impressed with the skeevy rubber band mounting solution provided, however. I replaced them with black silicone o-rings from my flashlight builder's stash.

mnem
*analog dwagon in a digital world*

[mansaxel]

I had previously noticed that my MetraHit 25 had trouble staying awake, and for some time I've been gathering the round tuits for getting new batteries in it. Today, as I was checking the recap of my Marconi VTVM (separate story, stay tuned!) I needed not only the 974 but also the MetraHit, to be able to measure several values simultaneously. As one does. However, it refused to do more than start; then it immediately died. Opened it up, only to find 2 Duracells in a very sorry state.  One of them was intact, but the other one had a serious case of Durchfall and shat its contents over itself, battery holder, and also left a string in the bottom of the case.  Both cells were around 680mV.  Fortunately the gunk cleaned up very easy, without a trace, and after rinsing the battery holder under running water and letting it dry out, fitting of new batteries restored both function and finish to the instrument.

The gunk was clear, semitransparent and crystalline.

[cyclin_al]

There are some new arrivals in the GWN, and some not so newly arrived but newly played with:



As you can see, there are some brand new Wera drivers on the bench.
They cost about as much as a car payment, including the VDL drivers beyond the needed torque screwdrivers.

Agreed. I got myself a Wera 2.5 to 11.5 lbs-in torque driver, because it was cheaper than the metric equivalent and I have lots of calculators (mostly without an = key)

Ditto on Wera quality; I've used them in production work, they're industrial-grade.

Wera is as good as Wiha.

I have tried them out and am quite impressed.  Thanks for all the valuable recommendations 



The Fluke 27s finally came out of the boxes.  You can see the round calibration stickers on the rear of the units.  The full calibration tag is attached to the hardcase handle.

I only had time to quickly try them on low voltage.  Only after disconnecting did I realize that swapping test leads may have resulted in different results; too late now to bother going back to try that.  The Fluke 27s are reading a slightly lower than the Fluke 8060A, but their leads are daisy-chained further away.  Slightly off the image, the HP 3468A is reading slightly higher at 5.0008 V.  The voltage source is uncalibrated.  The calibration of the 3468A is unknown.

I have a written note reminding me to buy a calibrated voltage source, but totally forgot when searching for reasonable prices.  I realized it too late, only after the unit arrived. 
Also, I have no information of its source impedance, which could be questionable with 4 DMMs hanging off it at the same time.

The results are plenty good enough for my current needs.  Just wait until I find yet another rabbit-hole...
I still need to check the internal battery of the 3468A.  It probably also needs to be checked for certain caps.
Along with the others here, I also need to check the 8060A caps as well.
Oh right, there was something I was going to use all this TEA for ...

[cyclin_al]

Is anybody's forum search tool working?  If I click onto a second page of search results, I get nothing 

What I was searching for is a discussion on this thread around the summer (northern hemisphere) of 2020 about high SSD temperatures and how removing the heatsink of a NVMe SSD might improve the airflow to improve cooling...

All that to say, temperatures inside the case and adequate airflow are important.  I did change my fan profile settings in BIOS based on that converstation to get better cooling 

I just tried and I found this:

@mnem,
So far I like that case.  The mesh seems to be good to keep cat & dog fur out of the interior.  Thanks for the note; I will keep an eye on it to keep the mesh clear so the cooling does not become a problem.  That reminds me to check the SSD temperature at some point.  The WD black SSD has a do not remove serial number sticker right where the ASRock B550 motherboard SSD heat sink makes contact.   At some point when I have spare time, I will have to compare it without the SSD heat sink installed.

Followed it for like 5 pages but no further response on the SSD Temps question.

General answer: It depends on the cooler. If the cooler is actually a decent bit of metal mass and some proper fins, even if they are short, yes it is better to have the heat sink provided the thermal compound/silicone thermal pad makes proper contact with the FLASH RAM and Controller chips.

Thanks for finding that!  I was thinking of an earlier post by someone else that inspired me to go check.

To respond to your general answer, the SSD heatsink provided on my ASRock motherboard is thin and smooth with no fins...
Given priorities, removing the heatsink was the easiest and quickest option; too many other things to do before getting a third party heatsink, if I ever get around to it...

[mnementh]

You're welcome! Glad if it helped.  As a computer nerd, I'd say get that cheap NVMe mounting/cooler kit on the way from Bezos' Crack Emporium so you have the hardware kit that comes with it for the next time you need it... and so you can put the cooler on next time you're in there.  Regular buna-n or hnbr rubber o-rings will work as a substitute for those rubber bands; once you have the thing stuck on there with the silicone pad, all they need to do is to do is keep the thing from sliding off due to gravity.

Just out of curiosity... have you been keeping that mesh in the front cover clean like we spoke of...? 

mnem
 

[duckduck]

...

Opened it up, only to find 2 Duracells in a very sorry state.  One of them was intact, but the other one had a serious case of Durchfall and shat its contents over itself, battery holder, and also left a string in the bottom of the case.  Both cells were around 680mV.  Fortunately the gunk cleaned up very easy, without a trace, and after rinsing the battery holder under running water and letting it dry out, fitting of new batteries restored both function and finish to the instrument.
...

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. Take it as a warning shot from Murphy. I will fill out the near miss incident report for you if you come join the NiMH club*. Like I always (OK, never) say, "Friends don't let friends use alkaline primary batteries in their test equipment."

* Yes, yes. ...if your meters support the lower voltage without crying.

[mnementh]

mnem
*toddles off to ded*