Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[dl6lr]

@Vince: haha, the guy was smoking some illegal stuff with his BMW Tektronix. I think it's rather a BMW Steptronic, which is simply an automatic transmission.

What's ironic is that he spelt Tektronix 100% right, whereas people who ACTUALLY do sell Tek scopes for the life of them are incapable of spelling it correctly ! Even though they just have to write what they see on the instrument... it's too much to ask them, so they spell it in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways but the correct one. It's beyond me. 

He just used autocorrection on his device 

[Vince]

Yeah so that means he is actually into Tektronix stuff himself, or else his computer would not even know about Tektronix in the first place.... maybe I should e-mail the guy telling him I couldn't care less about his modern BMW junk but would love to know more about his Tektronix hobby ! 

[Vince]

For those who want an old TDS 500 Tek scope but don't have much money to put in to it, a decent one poped up here :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/outillage_materiaux_2nd_oeuvre/2062320209.htm

A 524A, so 2 channels 500MHz, 500MSps, COLOUR screen, which appears to be in good nick too (often they leak, not so this one it seems).

The two channels appear to be working and POST is clear.

Bezel has a crack in the top left corner but not the end of the world, and mostly shows from the side, not from the front, so not a show stopper...

Also supplies two new probes but from what I see on the pics, they are probably the cheap 10 buck china probes, and probably aren't even 500MHz rated, most likely 100MHz I bet, so I would consider the scope as not having probes at all as far as I am concerned.


Only 200 Euros, and well maybe you can negotiate  20 euros off of that who knows.. that would help pay for shipping.

Would happily buy it if I were looking for my first TDS... but I already have two of them now and many more other scopes so... I am not a candidate for this scope any longer, but thought someone here might be...

[tggzzz]

While we're being 'correct' about apostrophes I might point out that an aide is a person who assists whereas a memory technique is spelled aid without the 'e'. You can probably blame the borrowed French "aide-mémoire" for your slip. I would were I you. 

That's funny... so looks like this word has not yet fyully morphed into English, you have only partially dropped the ' e ' ! Confusing for sure, I understand the pain it must be.

Here of course no such pain, " aide " is always written this way, be it the verb or the noun no matter if it's a person or an object or whatever...

That should teach you : if you want to use a French word, just use it as is and you will be fine, don't try to simplify/modify it !!! 

That's what we do here... whenever we use an English word, we just use it as is, we don't try to French-ize it...  We pronounce it in all sorts of weird and ridiculous ways but the correct one, we often don't really know what it means... but at least we don't try to modify its spelling. Well, maybe someone can come up with an exception to that but generally pseaking speaking I would say it holds true !

A sandwich is still a sandwich, a weekend is still a weekend. OK you are allowed to write it " week-end " if you want, but still...

Maybe 30% of our words descend from French, e.g. pork, beef, restaurant, raison d'etre... The other 70% or so are from before we were invaded by William the bastard/conqueror.

[tggzzz]

The mechanics of the English language are as much aboot propagating the exceptions to the rule as they are in any way aboot actually communicating thought and intent with any accuracy or even reasonable measure of cogency.

Or being ambiguous. Try to unambiguously explain when to use/avoid could, should, would, might, may, must.

[Neper]

a decent one poped up here :

Now, that's what I'd call a cardinal mistake. 

[Saskia]

For those who want an old TDS 500 Tek scope but don't have much money to put in to it, a decent one poped up here :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/outillage_materiaux_2nd_oeuvre/2062320209.htm

A 524A, so 2 channels 500MHz, 500MSps, COLOUR screen, which appears to be in good nick too (often they leak, not so this one it seems).

The two channels appear to be working and POST is clear.

Bezel has a crack in the top left corner but not the end of the world, and mostly shows from the side, not from the front, so not a show stopper...

Also supplies two new probes but from what I see on the pics, they are probably the cheap 10 buck china probes, and probably aren't even 500MHz rated, most likely 100MHz I bet, so I would consider the scope as not having probes at all as far as I am concerned.


Only 200 Euros, and well maybe you can negotiate  20 euros off of that who knows.. that would help pay for shipping.

Would happily buy it if I were looking for my first TDS... but I already have two of them now and many more other scopes so... I am not a candidate for this scope any longer, but thought someone here might be...

would happily buy, but need french address and phone number to register ...

[Vince]

The mechanics of the English language are as much aboot propagating the exceptions to the rule as they are in any way aboot actually communicating thought and intent with any accuracy or even reasonable measure of cogency.

Or being ambiguous. Try to unambiguously explain when to use/avoid could, should, would, might, may, must.

I kinda got this part through immersion while I lived in the UK, however one thing I would like answered is what the factual, objective difference between " THIS " and " THAT " is ..... it still boggles my mind... to thjis date I consider it as equivalent words and one just uses one or the other purely based on his personal habit or if he feels one "sounds" better (to him) than the other, in a particular sentence...

[Vince]

For those who want an old TDS 500 Tek scope but don't have much money to put in to it, a decent one poped up here :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/outillage_materiaux_2nd_oeuvre/2062320209.htm

A 524A, so 2 channels 500MHz, 500MSps, COLOUR screen, which appears to be in good nick too (often they leak, not so this one it seems).

The two channels appear to be working and POST is clear.

Bezel has a crack in the top left corner but not the end of the world, and mostly shows from the side, not from the front, so not a show stopper...

Also supplies two new probes but from what I see on the pics, they are probably the cheap 10 buck china probes, and probably aren't even 500MHz rated, most likely 100MHz I bet, so I would consider the scope as not having probes at all as far as I am concerned.


Only 200 Euros, and well maybe you can negotiate  20 euros off of that who knows.. that would help pay for shipping.

Would happily buy it if I were looking for my first TDS... but I already have two of them now and many more other scopes so... I am not a candidate for this scope any longer, but thought someone here might be...

would happily buy, but need french address and phone number to register ...

Really ? Normally you don't need to register to contact people on that website, strange.... but well if you say so.

Anyway I can be the middle man to make it easier.

However... as Neper said, maybe I was too quick... maybe this scope is a mistake.... The 500 and 500A series were plagued with the leaky SMD electrolytic caps disease, which corrodes the acquisition board and is a pain to fix if at all possible... My own TDS 544A has already been fixed in this regard, so I know I am safe, but this scope who knows. If it were rotten, it would gives POST errors. This one has a clean POST which is why I got carried away but... now I think of it, IIRC (people ?) there is a way to bypass the POST and make it hide errors... so maybe the seller knows this and is trying to hide the problems.
then maybe not, we just don't know... but yes it's risky.

Well that's easy : if really you are interested, I can message the seller and ask him to open it up and take pics of the boards, this way we can see if the leaky caps are still there. If so yeah... best not to buy it.  I can also ask him to make run the self test, teh full suite of them, from the utility menu, and RECORD it in a video clip. If you do that you can't hide the errors....  if he says "sorry I don't know how to make a video with my phone or camera"... then he is probably lying and he knows there are errors !

So just tell me... wanna have me contact the seller to figure it out ?

[xrunner]

That should teach you : if you want to use a French word, just use it as is and you will be fine, don't try to simplify/modify it !!! 

That's what we do here... whenever we use an English word, we just use it as is, we don't try to French-ize it...  We pronounce it in all sorts of weird and ridiculous ways but the correct one, we often don't really know what it means... but at least we don't try to modify its spelling. Well, maybe someone can come up with an exception to that but generally pseaking speaking I would say it holds true !

A sandwich is still a sandwich, a weekend is still a weekend. OK you are allowed to write it " week-end " if you want, but still...

What about cursing in French Vince? Is it better than English?

[tautech]

He is nuts. And willing to spend upwards of $20K to get them shipped to him. Wish I could throw $20K away and not even think about it. 

I'm wondering what the underlying reason is for this project. Is it a library for posterity? Is it for some business reason? Does anyone know why he wants to go through this painful exercise?

100%. THz is passionate about preserving historical paper yet a lot this large probably has a good few that can be flogged to help soften the initial outlay.
Lining him up with the right people in the US will make this project simple enough although it's gunna cost a bit to get 20t of paper to Oz.
An email to my contact for THz took less time than to type this post......

[Vince]

What about cursing in French Vince? Is it better than English?

I don't know ?! 

Some things come to me naturally in English, others in French... often when I talk to someone I find myself wanting to say an English word then I have to think twice, pause for a bit and try to figure out the French word for it.... often I fail, pathetic....

I think I spent too much time in the UK and too much time reading and writing English on forums, e-mailing friends, reading datasheet, watching movies etc....    I am contaminated... I am neither French anymore, nor English just yet... I am a hybrid, a bastard, literally... 

Hey someone on here already posted this one just a few weeks ago I remember, is that all you've got ?! 

[factory]

And here is what I collected this afternoon, a little Tek scope, the journey down wasn't much fun, very slow on the M6 in Birmingham and completely stationary for about 15 minutes, while a stranded vehicle was removed (apparently). 

I thought I would give it a quick test this evening, amazingly it seems to work, needs the two broken controls fixing and the trigger isn't working as good as I think it should be.

Anyone know why these curves show on the CRT, could it be related to the brightness?? Can't turn it down as the control is broken off.


Teardown will have to wait for another day.

David

I have a newer Type 321A. It does not have those curve marks on the CRT. But I suspect they would go away if you could turn down the brightness.

The Trigger works best in "Auto". If it doesn't lock correctly adjust the Stability trimmer.

The scope is loaded with germanium 2N2207 which are very prone to developing tin whisker shorts.

Can't say I've ever seen marks like that on a working CRT, need to find some small 1MΩ & 2MΩ HV pots, or try & fix the existing ones for the brightness problem.

The trigger was in "auto", it only seems to want to trigger on certain frequencies, adjusting the oscillator frequency a small amount causes it to lose lock.

The 321 manual on Tek wiki mentions the OC170 used in the vertical & timebase circuits, both areas that are functioning, maybe some have already been replaced.
And I already knew about the tin whiskers in old Mullard/Philips AF11x (& other series) transistors, many of my old radios are infested with the unreliable things.
Here is an old thread on the UKVRR forum about them : https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5058
And some faulty NOS AF114 transistors got sent to NASA: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/af114-transistor/index.html

David

[mansaxel]

    ..... and I don't have a TDR!

  Note alteration above.


You lot happy now?

Very. TDR is such a cool tech, regardless of medium. I as posted recently finally got round tuits enough to gather all bits and pieces to actually learn the art of OTDR, as executed on our Anritsu at work.

Not touching the O variant (sanity and wallet preclude).  Besides, the closest thing I have in that type of medium is some cheap filament they use in Christmas trees.  Even the digital audio stream I run from my TV to the surround sound system is via copper.

98% of what I do in optical networking is at work. I just happen to have acquired some tools over the years. Also, the proliferation of cheap imports has made the previously well guarded lucrative transceiver and cable market extremely competitive, opening it up to cheapskates like me. 

A 10GE SFP+ transceiver, standard 10km single-mode, is priced at USD 4178 in the Cisco Global Price List. I can buy a 3rd party one, of practically equal quality, for USD 29.

No-one buys at those elevated prices, of course, they're there to be able to give J Random Luser a 30% rebate, but the sales chain is full of FUD about how "You might not get support if you've contaminated your gear with cheap optics" and so on. This has never happened to me, and I have been on seriously intense support cases. Question was never asked. One usually has to configure gear to even accept 3rd party optics.  "HP" when they were in the networking business were extremely bad in this regard; they did not even give that option, so one had to buy cloned transceivers.  These days you can buy a complete transceiver programmer for reasonable money, and use it to adjust generic transceivers to look like what ever strange code you might encounter.  Nokia-Siemens 1GE GBIC for SDH multiplex systems is probably the strangest I've had to source, but it was still extremely cheap.

[Saskia]

For those who want an old TDS 500 Tek scope but don't have much money to put in to it, a decent one poped up here :

https://www.leboncoin.fr/outillage_materiaux_2nd_oeuvre/2062320209.htm

A 524A, so 2 channels 500MHz, 500MSps, COLOUR screen, which appears to be in good nick too (often they leak, not so this one it seems).

The two channels appear to be working and POST is clear.

Bezel has a crack in the top left corner but not the end of the world, and mostly shows from the side, not from the front, so not a show stopper...

Also supplies two new probes but from what I see on the pics, they are probably the cheap 10 buck china probes, and probably aren't even 500MHz rated, most likely 100MHz I bet, so I would consider the scope as not having probes at all as far as I am concerned.


Only 200 Euros, and well maybe you can negotiate  20 euros off of that who knows.. that would help pay for shipping.

Would happily buy it if I were looking for my first TDS... but I already have two of them now and many more other scopes so... I am not a candidate for this scope any longer, but thought someone here might be...

would happily buy, but need french address and phone number to register ...

Really ? Normally you don't need to register to contact people on that website, strange.... but well if you say so.

Anyway I can be the middle man to make it easier.

However... as Neper said, maybe I was too quick... maybe this scope is a mistake.... The 500 and 500A series were plagued with the leaky SMD electrolytic caps disease, which corrodes the acquisition board and is a pain to fix if at all possible... My own TDS 544A has already been fixed in this regard, so I know I am safe, but this scope who knows. If it were rotten, it would gives POST errors. This one has a clean POST which is why I got carried away but... now I think of it, IIRC (people ?) there is a way to bypass the POST and make it hide errors... so maybe the seller knows this and is trying to hide the problems.
then maybe not, we just don't know... but yes it's risky.

Well that's easy : if really you are interested, I can message the seller and ask him to open it up and take pics of the boards, this way we can see if the leaky caps are still there. If so yeah... best not to buy it.  I can also ask him to make run the self test, teh full suite of them, from the utility menu, and RECORD it in a video clip. If you do that you can't hide the errors....  if he says "sorry I don't know how to make a video with my phone or camera"... then he is probably lying and he knows there are errors !

So just tell me... wanna have me contact the seller to figure it out ?

Hi Vince,

thanks for the offer.
I think I'll pass on that one, I don't have time anyway, I need the little time I have to restore my 3 new aquisitions:

Flintstones pinball machine
Bram Stoker's Dracula pinball machine
Great Lizard pinball machine

All have issues, and only the Flintstones boots up.
The  other ones kill the fuse .... so I will have to investigate the PSU part (no fun ...)

We'll see.
btw my Festool ETS EC 150/5 arrived.

[factory]

Todays collection was the other 5245L with the time interval plugin. With rack mount ears but missing the feet.

As you can see it is freshly calibrated by -hp- only 20 years ago! It got a temporary place on my NFM.

Progress with the first 5245L: Replaced all neon bulbs. What a mess. All copper wires were corroded, most have them already were destroyed at one leg.

Put a magnet near those & you will soon find out why they fell off and that they are only plated with copper.


David

[mnementh]

      

mnem
"...and so begins another descent into madness..."

Well, fuck. That's disappointing. Turns out the crispy is just a SMD fuse, and after checking the main charge FETs and most of the semis in that region and finding no shorts, I started testing with a 1KΩ resistor in place of fuse FB1 in the (-) charger port bus. I also found no faults then either, and the charge circuit was starting to turn on. So then I tried with 1/10W, then 1W, then 25W dim-bulb tester... and it appears the only failure was in fact crispy FB1. 

I suspect      WRT that pigtail I scabbed in there to monitor the battery voltage; probably a stray strand I didn't catch when I was taping things off with ruban adhésif d'électricien.   

I am currently abusing a 1R0 1206 resistor in its place to the tune of ~1.3W while I scour scrap boards for a suitable ~1.5A fuse  (based on charger specifications and its mate in the (+) rail) or even a similarly sized Polyfuse to use as replacement; Roomba is charging away happily and no longer throwing the dread ERROR 5 after a few minutes. Sure that 1R0 sizzles a little if I touch it,      but still charging and batt voltage still climbing as expected.

mnem
*tzzzzzzt*

[mnementh]

And here is what I collected this afternoon, a little Tek scope, the journey down wasn't much fun, very slow on the M6 in Birmingham and completely stationary for about 15 minutes, while a stranded vehicle was removed (apparently).    I thought I would give it a quick test this evening, amazingly it seems to work, needs the two broken controls fixing and the trigger isn't working as good as I think it should be.   Anyone know why these curves show on the CRT, could it be related to the brightness?? Can't turn it down as the control is broken off.      Teardown will have to wait for another day.

David

I have a newer Type 321A. It does not have those curve marks on the CRT. But I suspect they would go away if you could turn down the brightness. The Trigger works best in "Auto". If it doesn't lock correctly adjust the Stability trimmer. The scope is loaded with germanium 2N2207 which are very prone to developing tin whisker shorts.

Can't say I've ever seen marks like that on a working CRT, need to find some small 1MΩ & 2MΩ HV pots, or try & fix the existing ones for the brightness problem.   The trigger was in "auto", it only seems to want to trigger on certain frequencies, adjusting the oscillator frequency a small amount causes it to lose lock.

The 321 manual on Tek wiki mentions the OC170 used in the vertical & timebase circuits, both areas that are functioning, maybe some have already been replaced.
And I already knew about the tin whiskers in old Mullard/Philips AF11x (& other series) transistors, many of my old radios are infested with the unreliable things.
Here is an old thread on the UKVRR forum about them : https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5058
And some faulty NOS AF114 transistors got sent to NASA: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/af114-transistor/index.html

David

I hate to be "that guy", but after seeing that pic so many times, I gotta say it out loud: My gut tells me it's a damaged CRT. 

mnem
I do hope I'm wrong.

[factory]

Mentioning the need to re-cap the Fluke 8060A got me wondering about my similar vintage 8021B. How many electrolytics, if any, does it have? So I opened it up and took a look. Two. Both up to the bottom right of the LCD. And verified this via the parts list. Both 22uf/16V. When I do the re-cap of the 8060A I'll do this guy too.

[/URL]

Are you sure there's not more caps hidden under the display? The 8060 has a few there as far as I can remember.

McBryce.

The 8060 is very different from the other meters in the 802[0-9] series, and has lots more bits and bobs. The others are much simpler, and I remember my foray into my 8022 resulting in just 3 "Krusty Kaps" found after a thorough search.

Are those more fine quality Panasonic (Matsushita) leak dispensers?  Seen far too many 80's & 90's capacitors ozzing & corroding stuff from them (even NOS), to put me off buying from them. 

David

[Cerebus]

The mechanics of the English language are as much aboot propagating the exceptions to the rule as they are in any way aboot actually communicating thought and intent with any accuracy or even reasonable measure of cogency.

Or being ambiguous. Try to unambiguously explain when to use/avoid could, should, would, might, may, must.

I kinda got this part through immersion while I lived in the UK, however one thing I would like answered is what the factual, objective difference between " THIS " and " THAT " is ..... it still boggles my mind... to thjis date I consider it as equivalent words and one just uses one or the other purely based on his personal habit or if he feels one "sounds" better (to him) than the other, in a particular sentence...

When using both in the same sentence or paragraph they are almost always linked to the physical proximity of the speaker to the objects in question. If not physical proximity them temporal proximity, with the past being further away and 'this' being the present.

Tom: "So which of the pies are you going to eat?"
Dick: [Picking up a pie.] "I'll have this one, you have that one." [Pointing to the pie left on the table]
Tom: "OK, I think this one [picks up pie] is a little bigger than that one." [Points to the pie Dick is holding.]

Harry: "Who ate all the pies? I thought that at least this time I would get a look in. That will be the last time I let you bastards get to the kitchen before me."

[factory]

And here is what I collected this afternoon, a little Tek scope, the journey down wasn't much fun, very slow on the M6 in Birmingham and completely stationary for about 15 minutes, while a stranded vehicle was removed (apparently).    I thought I would give it a quick test this evening, amazingly it seems to work, needs the two broken controls fixing and the trigger isn't working as good as I think it should be.   Anyone know why these curves show on the CRT, could it be related to the brightness?? Can't turn it down as the control is broken off.      Teardown will have to wait for another day.

David

I have a newer Type 321A. It does not have those curve marks on the CRT. But I suspect they would go away if you could turn down the brightness. The Trigger works best in "Auto". If it doesn't lock correctly adjust the Stability trimmer. The scope is loaded with germanium 2N2207 which are very prone to developing tin whisker shorts.

Can't say I've ever seen marks like that on a working CRT, need to find some small 1MΩ & 2MΩ HV pots, or try & fix the existing ones for the brightness problem.   The trigger was in "auto", it only seems to want to trigger on certain frequencies, adjusting the oscillator frequency a small amount causes it to lose lock.

The 321 manual on Tek wiki mentions the OC170 used in the vertical & timebase circuits, both areas that are functioning, maybe some have already been replaced.
And I already knew about the tin whiskers in old Mullard/Philips AF11x (& other series) transistors, many of my old radios are infested with the unreliable things.
Here is an old thread on the UKVRR forum about them : https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5058
And some faulty NOS AF114 transistors got sent to NASA: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/af114-transistor/index.html

David

I hate to be "that guy", but after seeing that pic so many times, I gotta say it out loud: My gut tells me it's a damaged CRT. 

mnem
I do hope I'm wrong.

I've seen damaged CRTs before and the trace is usually messed up too, example below from here; https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=106959


Oddly in my case it wasn't seen in the sellers picture, so if it is damaged it must have happened on the journey home.

David

[med6753]

And here is what I collected this afternoon, a little Tek scope, the journey down wasn't much fun, very slow on the M6 in Birmingham and completely stationary for about 15 minutes, while a stranded vehicle was removed (apparently).    I thought I would give it a quick test this evening, amazingly it seems to work, needs the two broken controls fixing and the trigger isn't working as good as I think it should be.   Anyone know why these curves show on the CRT, could it be related to the brightness?? Can't turn it down as the control is broken off.      Teardown will have to wait for another day.

David

I have a newer Type 321A. It does not have those curve marks on the CRT. But I suspect they would go away if you could turn down the brightness. The Trigger works best in "Auto". If it doesn't lock correctly adjust the Stability trimmer. The scope is loaded with germanium 2N2207 which are very prone to developing tin whisker shorts.

Can't say I've ever seen marks like that on a working CRT, need to find some small 1MΩ & 2MΩ HV pots, or try & fix the existing ones for the brightness problem.   The trigger was in "auto", it only seems to want to trigger on certain frequencies, adjusting the oscillator frequency a small amount causes it to lose lock.

The 321 manual on Tek wiki mentions the OC170 used in the vertical & timebase circuits, both areas that are functioning, maybe some have already been replaced.
And I already knew about the tin whiskers in old Mullard/Philips AF11x (& other series) transistors, many of my old radios are infested with the unreliable things.
Here is an old thread on the UKVRR forum about them : https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5058
And some faulty NOS AF114 transistors got sent to NASA: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/af114-transistor/index.html

David

I hate to be "that guy", but after seeing that pic so many times, I gotta say it out loud: My gut tells me it's a damaged CRT. 

mnem
I do hope I'm wrong.

I've seen damaged CRTs before and the trace is usually messed up too, example below from here; https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=106959


Oddly it wasn't seen in the sellers picture, so if it is damaged it must have happened on the journey home.

David

Hold off on drawing any conclusions until after you can get the intensity turned down. I'm still of the opinion it will clear up.

[Vince]

I kinda got this part through immersion while I lived in the UK, however one thing I would like answered is what the factual, objective difference between " THIS " and " THAT " is ..... it still boggles my mind... to thjis date I consider it as equivalent words and one just uses one or the other purely based on his personal habit or if he feels one "sounds" better (to him) than the other, in a particular sentence...

When using both in the same sentence or paragraph they are almost always linked to the physical proximity of the speaker to the objects in question. If not physical proximity them temporal proximity, with the past being further away and 'this' being the present.

Tom: "So which of the pies are you going to eat?"
Dick: [Picking up a pie.] "I'll have this one, you have that one." [Pointing to the pie left on the table]
Tom: "OK, I think this one [picks up pie] is a little bigger than that one." [Points to the pie Dick is holding.]

Harry: "Who ate all the pies? I thought that at least this time I would get a look in. That will be the last time I let you bastards get to the kitchen before me."

Hmmmm...... interesting....... I will meditate on that.... thanks Professor Cerebrus ! 

[xrunner]

Hey someone on here already posted this one just a few weeks ago I remember, is that all you've got ?! 

Hmmm, well I'll just look through some Monty Python videos, I'm sure something comedic having to do with the French will come up. 

[mnementh]

*flings a bovine of no particular coloration in xrunner's general direction*

mnem