Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[med6753]

Roy is an asshole. Don't be like Roy. 

[capt bullshot]

@Kosmic, that is pretty good, well done, you cannot complain really about being 100mV out at 100Vac 

Can't he? But who's out? The Fluke or the Tenma? 

None of them, or both it's not clear

The Tenma is rated 0.6% + 40 counts on the 1000V AC range. It's reading 0.11% low on the picture. Which is pretty good I would say.

On 10VDC the 5101b is around 66ppm away from my local 10V ref.

From my experience the 5100 / 5101 are quite reliable. At 10V, all of my HP34401 agree to the 5101 within 20ppm.

[capt bullshot]

...any safe equipment must deal with full mains potential on both conductors of the supply in a way that's no less secure than the "intended orientation".

Issue is moot, and insisting is pointless. IMNSHO.

Mmmokay... how do you make that happen with common household lighting used worldwide with E26 and similar E27 base?

The above near-universal type of lampholder has a propensity for the cardboard insulator to break down with age and/or careless handling by nimrods; this exposes the outer threaded ring of the lampholder to direct contact with the metal shell right where you grab to turn things on/off. This was the primary reason for the NA NEC going to polarized plugs as a standard on small appliances and lighting.

The ones we have here have recessed contacts for both the center pin and the threaded part, so once the bulb is removed from the socket, the threaded part is isolated from mains. And their outer hull is made from isolating material (plastic).
So, not a big deal to make it safe independent of polarity, isn't it?

[Specmaster]

Fuck my old boots, this is going to be a big-ass reply, hope I don't hit the size limit...

Anything that is double insulated, such as a plastic cased drill, fan etc, and does not have any requirement for a ground connection or fuse, should be connected to a plug which is not polarised.

If it connects to the mains, it has to meet BS1363, which means it has to have a BS1362 fuse fitted in the plug-top on the live conductor. Even when it's Class 2 (double insulated).

<snip>
  hopefully I was ruthless enough in the editing to keep the size manageable. Ten new replies since I started though![/color][/size][/b]

My answer above was not specifcally referring to the UK and I should have made that clearer and of course replaced "should be connected to a plug which is not polarised" to read as "could be connected to a plug which is not polarised", thats my bad 

[capt bullshot]

I happen to use 3-phase power, since my country is the country of ASEA and not the country hailing that con man Edison. His flawed DC mains system has one, and one good thing only: You can get 240V off of it. Sadly, it's not three-phase, but something forcing you poor people  to add capacitors (see rule 9) to every motor.  Our neighbours to the west, the Norwegians, are even purer. They have no neutral, but instead run their Schuko outlets off of two legs from a Delta-connected three-phase grid.

Thanks, that explains why I've seen all the dual pole breakers in Norwegian panels. Always wondered why one would break the neutral, but with this knowledge it makes perfect sense. One more reason for having polarity independent appliances and non-polarized plugs.

[Specmaster]

I happen to use 3-phase power, since my country is the country of ASEA and not the country hailing that con man Edison. His flawed DC mains system has one, and one good thing only: You can get 240V off of it. Sadly, it's not three-phase, but something forcing you poor people  to add capacitors (see rule 9) to every motor.  Our neighbours to the west, the Norwegians, are even purer. They have no neutral, but instead run their Schuko outlets off of two legs from a Delta-connected three-phase grid.

Thanks, that explains why I've seen all the dual pole breakers in Norwegian panels. Always wondered why one would break the neutral, but with this knowledge it makes perfect sense. One more reason for having polarity independent appliances and non-polarized plugs.

Over here, it is also required that petrol stations use double pole circuit breakers to ensure that any circuit is total isolated in the event of a problem or anyone working on it. Also not sure if this still is the case, but some large retail stores also certainly used to at least, use DP breakers for all their checkout pods.

[xrunner]

If you are referring to the manual, I am wondering about the same thing. Another device of the same type which was sold had a rear view pictured which read 'Options C01 C04' and was fitted with rear-mounted SMA connectors instead of N. Mine has N, at least they described it as such. And rear-mounted.
So that manual is a bit strange.

Wait, I'm so confused ... I do see that the N connectors may fit into those SMA holes. But what happened to the three BNC functions offered on the back of others that have front N connectors. I see - RF Blanking, EXT. AM, and Det. Out. on them. HP makes you sacrifice those for rear RF connections?

 

[Kosmic]

None of them, or both it's not clear

The Tenma is rated 0.6% + 40 counts on the 1000V AC range. It's reading 0.11% low on the picture. Which is pretty good I would say.

On 10VDC the 5101b is around 66ppm away from my local 10V ref.

The latter sounds good. How far is the Tenma off the local 10V ref. on the closest range?

0.5mv (0.01%) low I would say. The last digit is alternating between 10.000 and 9.999.

[bd139]

Roy is an asshole. Don't be like Roy. 

People like Roy have a trail of bodies behind them.

[Robert763]

Fuck my old boots, this is going to be a big-ass reply, hope I don't hit the size limit...


<SNIP>
Now we all want to know who "Roy" is.
The Part P "qualification" is a load of old bollocks; from what I've seen it's mostly used by  heating engineers  plumbers  pipe-fitters and wood-butchers so they can be allowed to wire up the boiler/kitchen they just fitted. It's a very short course (2 or 3 days) and then a yearly "registration fee" of around £700 iirc.



  hopefully I was ruthless enough in the editing to keep the size manageable. Ten new replies since I started though!

Indeed, I looked at it for one of less "mainstream" registration bodies a couple of years ago. Take their 2 day course, join them and you are part P "qualified"  They did say if you had done no electrical work before you should take their 5 day course first  Seven days and you are a qualified Sparky (with lots of sparks) 
The two day course was mainly how to use the multifunction tester, not a Fluke but their chosen one, which they just happened to sell too.....

[capt bullshot]

Indeed, I looked at it for one of less "mainstream" registration bodies a couple of years ago. Take their 2 day course, join them and you are part P "qualified"  They did say if you had done no electrical work before you should take their 5 day course first  Seven days and you are a qualified Sparky (with lots of sparks) 
The two day course was mainly how to use the multifunction tester, not a Fluke but their chosen one, which they just happened to sell too.....

Quelle surprise

[Cerebus]

Cerebus -

I remember you talking aboot looking for some sort of tray to use for populating PCBs; something with a lip to keep flyaways captive. Yesterday I picked this up from the Thrift; it looks like just the kind of thing you were asking for. I'm guessing it is some sort of silicone baking sheet for ummm... I dunno what...?

Dimensions are 150mm x 150mm inside; lip is 10mm high to the inside surface. Bottom measures 2mm thick so marginally safe to solder right on it; or you could just put your PCB on a MetCal potholder or somesuch for a little extra safety.

No idea what they'd call it on your side of the pond; hopefully not too frightfully expensive.

mnem
*solder-ily*

That looks like the silicone version of a swiss roll tray (which has a fancier nom gastronomique that I can't remember offhand). Might be a winner.

Later ...



I think I'll chance a fiver on it. Might be a bit of a static risk, might not, but if it is that's easily mitigated with something no more sophisticated than a sheet of paper.

[bd139]

I’m going to just make Swiss roll if I buy that 

[capt bullshot]

Can't stand waiting for page 4066 ...

[mansaxel]

I happen to use 3-phase power, since my country is the country of ASEA and not the country hailing that con man Edison. His flawed DC mains system has one, and one good thing only: You can get 240V off of it. Sadly, it's not three-phase, but something forcing you poor people  to add capacitors (see rule 9) to every motor.  Our neighbours to the west, the Norwegians, are even purer. They have no neutral, but instead run their Schuko outlets off of two legs from a Delta-connected three-phase grid.

Thanks, that explains why I've seen all the dual pole breakers in Norwegian panels. Always wondered why one would break the neutral, but with this knowledge it makes perfect sense. One more reason for having polarity independent appliances and non-polarized plugs.

It's the same with mains on ships. I first came across it when working in the night club on M/F Nils Holgersson, on the Trelleborg-Travemünde route. We'd go aboard at about 5 in the afternoon, and work a few hours before the nightclub opened, then we'd have beers from the export-only stores (practically free Beck's), go to bed and wake up in Travemünde, and work all day during the return journey, getting off again in Trelleborg. Most times customs did not catch us trying to import export-only fags and beer.

Anyway, there were dual-pole circuit breakers. Another example, that perhaps illustrates the point better, is a fairly uncommon repair part sourcing we did about the same time. Friend of the boss worked at sea, assistant engineer on a freighter. They had an electrical winch on the forward superstructure, fed by a delta 3-phase cable, 380 Volts. The contactor had burned out, and they fitted another one, but were unable to source one with a 380V coil, and had to settle for 220V. The bodge was to use the ship's hull to get a neutral, and thus a 380V/sqrt(3) voltage. Problem was that they then caused very accelerated corrosion on the winch frame, because the very reason to do Delta mains on ships is to keep currents away from the hull. So we were asked to get a replacement coil for 380V, which was no big problem, and that solved the original issue.

[Cerebus]

I’m going to just make Swiss roll if I buy that 

I already have a metal tin for that, and it hasn't caused me to make swiss rolls (or meringue roulades, which is more my thing) all the time.

How do you make a Swiss roll? [This is a "supply your own punchline" dad joke.]

[bd139]

I’m going to just make Swiss roll if I buy that 

I already have a metal tin for that, and it hasn't caused me to make swiss rolls (or meringue roulades, which is more my thing) all the time.

How do you make a Swiss roll? [This is a "supply your own punchline" dad joke.]

Set him on fire of course.

[Kosmic]

@Kosmic, that is pretty good, well done, you cannot complain really about being 100mV out at 100Vac 

Can't he? But who's out? The Fluke or the Tenma? 

None of them, or both it's not clear

The Tenma is rated 0.6% + 40 counts on the 1000V AC range. It's reading 0.11% low on the picture. Which is pretty good I would say.

On 10VDC the 5101b is around 66ppm away from my local 10V ref.

From my experience the 5100 / 5101 are quite reliable. At 10V, all of my HP34401 agree to the 5101 within 20ppm.

I might send my 34401 for calibration (and adjustments) to sort that out. Right now my confidence level is pretty low.

[Specmaster]

Fuck my old boots, this is going to be a big-ass reply, hope I don't hit the size limit...


<SNIP>
Now we all want to know who "Roy" is.
The Part P "qualification" is a load of old bollocks; from what I've seen it's mostly used by  heating engineers  plumbers  pipe-fitters and wood-butchers so they can be allowed to wire up the boiler/kitchen they just fitted. It's a very short course (2 or 3 days) and then a yearly "registration fee" of around £700 iirc.



  hopefully I was ruthless enough in the editing to keep the size manageable. Ten new replies since I started though!

Indeed, I looked at it for one of less "mainstream" registration bodies a couple of years ago. Take their 2 day course, join them and you are part P "qualified"  They did say if you had done no electrical work before you should take their 5 day course first  Seven days and you are a qualified Sparky (with lots of sparks) 
The two day course was mainly how to use the multifunction tester, not a Fluke but their chosen one, which they just happened to sell too.....

Yep, thats the type of thing my ex employer sent his son on and then installed him in my place and then set about slowly easing me out the door though some devious moves. 

[med6753]

Over on the Facebook Old Tek Scopes Group we get a lot of "first timers" who bought a Tek scope or individuals who know nothing about what they have and it's broken and need help. So we try to help and of course it's fraught with danger and frustration. One such individual claims he has 40 years experience working on audio equipment but the 7603 he's had for years suddenly took a dump and won't power up. And he's at a loss as to what to do. You would think if he's worked on electronic equipment as he claims then he would at least have some clue. So myself and others start with the basics. Got a manual? If not, go here and download. What are the symptoms? And of course the safety aspects. You just don't know who you're dealing with.

So being the good guy I am (shut up  ) I pulled my military 7603 off the self and did some basic resistance measurements of the PSU voltages as shown:

Top connector on the regulator board. Leave it connected and probe the backside. Here's the approx readings you should get starting at the top (Pin 1)

Pin 1  -50V  2.735K
Pin 2  -15V  51.6 ohms
Pin 3  +5V   46.1 ohms
Pin 4  +15V  86.2 ohms
Pin 5  +50V  6.05K
Pin 6   GND  0 ohms



Here is the resistance check of the +130V supply. On the Z-Axis board. This connector. Pin 1 on the right (brown wire). Should be approx 7.21K.



We'll see where this goes.   

[cyclin_al]

You can cross the border and visit us now, if you are fully vaccinated.

We are not allowed to go visit you ...

Careful there Kosmic with the offer, I assume I am located even closer than med is.  I may eventually need to calibrate all my stuff, maybe even a reference or two...

Yes, I am fully vaccinated but I still can't visit you fine folks in the GWN. I don't have a passport and I have yet to upgrade my license id to what's called "ESL" so I can cross the border. I've been meaning to upgrade but the Covid shutdown put the stop to that for now.

Oh right, I need to take care of that passport thing too...

I did not know there was a license rating to cross a border.
Gurrgle only shows ESL results for English as a Second Language...

[mnementh]

The fact it is too easy to cut/drill through both conductors and still manage to energize a metal body (especially with the Tim Taylor crowd) is why they pressed forward with double-insulated requirement for hand-operated power tools...

Those are far too small to get the mounting bolts for a V8 on, even for a small block.

TS 00:15 and 06:58 are prime examples of the kind of "energizing a metal body" I was talking aboot... but hey, no reason not to enjoy the whole loop.

EDIT: Actually, I meant specifically drilling or cutting through a live wire with a metal-bodied tool... which I suppose I should have been more specific; I thought the context made that pretty self-evident.

mnem
motherfucker got paid to run over golf carts with a tank... I am in the wrong line of work.

[med6753]

You can cross the border and visit us now, if you are fully vaccinated.

We are not allowed to go visit you ...

Careful there Kosmic with the offer, I assume I am located even closer than med is.  I may eventually need to calibrate all my stuff, maybe even a reference or two...

Yes, I am fully vaccinated but I still can't visit you fine folks in the GWN. I don't have a passport and I have yet to upgrade my license id to what's called "ESL" so I can cross the border. I've been meaning to upgrade but the Covid shutdown put the stop to that for now.

Oh right, I need to take care of that passport thing too...

I did not know there was a license rating to cross a border.
Gurrgle only shows ESLE results for English as a Second Language...

Sorry, had it wrong. It's NYS Enhanced License or EDL. Another name is "Real ID" as if the current license I have is fake. 

[mansaxel]

Oh right, I need to take care of that passport thing too...

I did not know there was a license rating to cross a border.
Gurrgle only shows ESLE results for English as a Second Language...

I'm good with the passport, valid until June '23.

We've got another "license" to deal with, the ESTA, if we want to visit the US. Actually it's less stupid than the old I-94W but I'm pretty certain the data saved on me in ESTA is more deviously used. Paper forms were a good choker on the totalitarian machine efficiency, something they don't share with database records. I did get into the US pretty quick last time, though. The trick overall seems to be "Don't land just after a 747 from a country that requires visas for everyone".  Another useful trick is to be military and travel officially (we train our Blackhawk crews in the US, for instance, and there's some similar work going on with our Patriot missile launcher specialists), because then you'll get a diplomatic visa and take the special queue.

And, of course, "never expect connections from ORD to work." I flew to LAX and drove to Vegas this last time.

[bd139]

Over on the Facebook Old Tek Scopes Group we get a lot of "first timers" who bought a Tek scope or individuals who know nothing about what they have and it's broken and need help. So we try to help and of course it's fraught with danger and frustration. One such individual claims he has 40 years experience working on audio equipment but the 7603 he's had for years suddenly took a dump and won't power up. And he's at a loss as to what to do. You would think if he's worked on electronic equipment as he claims then he would at least have some clue. So myself and others start with the basics. Got a manual? If not, go here and download. What are the symptoms? And of course the safety aspects. You just don't know who you're dealing with.

Reminds me of the guy I sold a 465 to a couple of years back. Apparently in the electronics industry for years, really wants Tektronix scope to fix amps because his friend had recommended one.

So get an email six months later saying it stopped working and can I have a look at it. I declined but said I’d try and help by email. After three or four exchanges of emails I managed to fix it remotely. The issue was it was set on NORM instead of AUTO triggering

At least it’s not software though.