Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cerebus]

(? Patented thing ?)

Patents now expired. A bunch of ex-Metcal people went off and formed Thermaltronics the minute the patents expired. (From memory, the people whose names are on the patents that were assigned to Metcal.) Hakko also now make a line of irons working on the same curie point/RF heating principle.

[bd139]

I'll tell you what's BS aboot EV. It's that the leading EV manufacturer right now is led by a vapour-ware salesman who is pushing the closed-shop, replace rather than repair agenda, which does NOT help the environment, but rather rapes the shit out of it just as badly as ICE.

Elon Musk and his business practices can fuck off. Then keep fucking off until he's fucked right off. Then he can fuck off some more.

Got to say I know a couple of Tesla drivers and they have to have a lot of repairs so that's not strictly true. Hell they mostly seem to not be assembled and painted correctly in some cases  . That doesn't stop the rabid cult Musk fanbase which is the thing that annoys me. It's taking internet startups and applying that bullshit to infrastructure that's the real problem. That is utterly dangerous. Look at the influence and damage this is going to do just from the marketing.

The environmental issue is more as stated before which is something I've glad to hear people agree with me on which is we built society around cars which was very short sighted. But that's not strictly true either when you look at it and think about it either. Neatly merging this with Specmaster's points about Harlow and Stevenage, both of which have very well structured cycle routes end to end and were designed with this in mind. But they are stinking shit holes - I worked in both  . Despite the places being fitted for public transport the local authority never looked after the cycling infrastructure, privatised the public transport which now charges extortionate amounts to keep afloat and punishes drivers with parking fees. The only viable and affordable transport in some of these areas are independent taxi firms which are low ball outfits running whatever piece of shit that still has wheels that hasn't fallen off.

The only thing is the common denominator race to the bottom on inefficiency and revenue generation only. Solving real fucking problems is dead. And the grave is being pissed on by new problems and marketing solutions for them.

[mansaxel]

So replaced the connector and cleaned up the mess, now works like a charm.

It looks like a 12-pin "Kleintuchel" -- is it so?

Also, to others reading this, the older thermistor mounts have a 6-pin connector that only has a -hp- part number. Is there a second source for those?

[Vince]

(? Patented thing ?)

Patents now expired. A bunch of ex-Metcal people went off and formed Thermaltronics the minute the patents expired. (From memory, the people whose names are on the patents that were assigned to Metcal.) Hakko also now make a line of irons working on the same curie point/RF heating principle.

OH, thanks for that, I was going to ask preciselt about this ! 

Wow great, so that means prices must be muchmore affordable than they were 20 years ago when Metcal was the only one selling these ?!

Well that's hoping that the Thermaltornics and Hakko ones are of equal overall quality and durability than the Metcal ??

[Cubdriver]

Vince -

See the attached video - they work by curie point, along the lines of the magnestat, but with a different heating method.
-Pat

Oh, same as my old Weller "Magnastat" , OK so now the tip temperature thing makes sense ! 

Video is great, straigh tot the point.

So the tip does have PART of the heating element... a copper core, and the hand piece has the coil. OK...

So I guess the tips are therefore in between in terms of price : more expensive than Weller Magnastat tips, but cheaper than other brands tips which have a complete heater inside them.

No, actually the coil is inside the tip, too, but in this case it's just a coil of wire.  If you go back a page and look at my previous post, I made a few additions to it, not realizing that the thread had spilled over to the next page.

-Pat

[bd139]

Just a point on Metcal life.

Metcal cartridges (the element) have about 400h continuous life. I'm on my second one in ~ 3 years and I do a shit load of soldering. I suspect that one died because I dropped the handpiece on the floor rather than it was dead.

I have the original tip. It's as good as new still.

My kit is the PS900 (production iron) and it's cheaper than the current Magnastat WTCP 51 which was quite frankly disappointingly shit. It used to get stuck to ground planes 

When I bought the iron I got a stack of consumables with it - sponges and brass wool for tip cleaning, a couple of tips and a spare cartridge. Was a good investment overall. I still love it after over 3 years.

It may be worth investing in the "standby holder" if you spend a lot of time idling. That has a magnet in it which sticks the iron in low heat mode when it's in the holder. I haven't got one (yet).

[med6753]

Well today was a total waste. The Type 547 is back on it's side just waiting for me to replace the vertical bits. But my ambition level today has been down around -10 and I can't even be bothered to turn on the Hakko. Maybe tomorrow. 

[Vince]

Thanks chaps.

OK so sounds good.. glad I can now narrow down my choice to this inductive system.

So BD is very happy with his original / genuine Metcal.

As for the Thermaltronics, I just had a look at their site. Prices are way more affordable than I though, between 200 and 400 USD, which even it's without VAT, is still only... just as many Euros.
As for quality well.. I think they kinda implicitly tell you about it : they sell 3 models : 30 / 40 / 50 "RF" watts.

30 and 50W are the cheapest and have only one year warranty.
OTOH their 40W model though not even the most powerful, is however the most expensive at 400 bucks... BUT the of FOUR year warranty on the thing ?!     That's to say the 40W model is the only on to buy...

Also, 30/40/50W is weird, extremely low.... "normal" irons are usually 50/90/130 Watts. So I guess this "RF" wattage means it's more concentrated to the tip, less losses than a conventional heating system, so in the end the tip receives as much power for 30W RF as it does for a 50W, then 40W RF for a 90W, and 50W RF for a 130W ? Something like that ?

Will check Hakko's website for their range of products  and prices..


Standby Holder yes, definitely want that !  Typically I power on the iron then leave it on for hours until I am done working at the bench. Huge waste of electricity which I do'nt like, but the Weller is so slow to heat up that I have no choice. Another reason why I want quick heating and stand-by mode... to get excellent " availability " so to speak, yet waste as little electricity as possible.

[Cubdriver]

(? Patented thing ?)

Patents now expired. A bunch of ex-Metcal people went off and formed Thermaltronics the minute the patents expired. (From memory, the people whose names are on the patents that were assigned to Metcal.) Hakko also now make a line of irons working on the same curie point/RF heating principle.

OH, thanks for that, I was going to ask preciselt about this ! 

Wow great, so that means prices must be muchmore affordable than they were 20 years ago when Metcal was the only one selling these ?!

Well that's hoping that the Thermaltornics and Hakko ones are of equal overall quality and durability than the Metcal ??

I can't speak totally to the reliability of the other brands, but bought the Metcal at the beginning of 2020, IIRC.  Got a few OEM and a few Thermaltronics tips for it, and can't really tell a difference between them use-wise.  Just before the nastiness hit, I had to go to my CA office to assemble something that had proven to be a challenge to solder with the old station we had out there (a Xytronic).  They were antennas that had copper fins a bit smaller and thinner than a US penny, with slots that needed to be soldered to a piece of coax.  The old station had to be cranked up to full bitch, and even then could barely heat things enough to get a nice joint.  It had a bevel tip a few mm in diameter, so it had a decent thermal contact with the fin, but still struggled.  When time came to go back out to build up the remaining antennas, I ordered a Theremaltronics iron and a few tips for the lab out there.  It seems pretty close quality-wise to the Metacal here at home, and soldered the fins with nary a whimper.  the other guys in the lab like it, too, so I'd say you're safe with either Metcal or Thermaltronics.  I've never used any kind of Hakko, so I've no comment there.

-Pat

[tggzzz]

I haven't commuted for 8 years now. There's no need 

Drove a couple of hundred miles round trip today though. Decided after this week's carnage to take the kids out to the beach and on a short walk. So to West Wittering it was to the beach followed by a short drive to The Devil's Humps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Humps,_Stoughton

Despite having been to W Wittering from Epsom many times as a kid, I didn't know those existed; they look fun. If you sleep rough overnight, do you have to fend off wights?

Good day out although every picture of the kids I managed to snap appears to have them sticking their middle finger up at me. At least I know they're my kids  .

Don't expect them to become more cooperative as they age.

[Vince]

I can't speak totally to the reliability of the other brands, but bought the Metcal at the beginning of 2020, IIRC.  Got a few OEM and a few Thermaltronics tips for it, and can't really tell a difference between them use-wise.  Just before the nastiness hit, I had to go to my CA office to assemble something that had proven to be a challenge to solder with the old station we had out there (a Xytronic).  They were antennas that had copper fins a bit smaller and thinner than a US penny, with slots that needed to be soldered to a piece of coax.  The old station had to be cranked up to full bitch, and even then could barely heat things enough to get a nice joint.  It had a bevel tip a few mm in diameter, so it had a decent thermal contact with the fin, but still struggled.  When time came to go back out to build up the remaining antennas, I ordered a Theremaltronics iron and a few tips for the lab out there.  It seems pretty close quality-wise to the Metacal here at home, and soldered the fins with nary a whimper.  the other guys in the lab like it, too, so I'd say you're safe with either Metcal or Thermaltronics.  I've never used any kind of Hakko, so I've no comment there.

-Pat

Thanks for that. So one can use thermaltronics tips on a real/genuine Metcal, good to know, that's excellent !  I mean obviously the thermaltronics tips must be cheaper than their Metcal counter parts.. otherwise not much point to it...
Competition, good ! 

[bd139]

I haven't commuted for 8 years now. There's no need 

Drove a couple of hundred miles round trip today though. Decided after this week's carnage to take the kids out to the beach and on a short walk. So to West Wittering it was to the beach followed by a short drive to The Devil's Humps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Humps,_Stoughton

Despite having been to W Wittering from Epsom many times as a kid, I didn't know those existed; they look fun. If you sleep rough overnight, do you have to fend off wights?

I did consider doing that actually. It's quite nice and peaceful. Also difficult to get up there as it's a 150m climb and in the middle of bloody nowhere so it keeps the chavs out. Good sunrise and sunset. As for the wights, hope not!

Next stop is however Harting Down. Rather liking the South Downs. May be the company I've been with a couple of times though

Don't expect them to become more cooperative as they age.

I should hope they don't. I was difficult and uncooperative and look where that got me 

[Cerebus]

It may be worth investing in the "standby holder" if you spend a lot of time idling. That has a magnet in it which sticks the iron in low heat mode when it's in the holder. I haven't got one (yet).

I'd love to know the secret sauce in the standby stands. I mean obviously it's a magnet or two but what's the orientation, what's the necessary field strength. Reason being that I haven't got a magic stand and I haven't seen one at a good price and I'm sure that it's just a case of sticking a couple of neo-diddlyum magnets in the right place.

[Cubdriver]

I can't speak totally to the reliability of the other brands, but bought the Metcal at the beginning of 2020, IIRC.  Got a few OEM and a few Thermaltronics tips for it, and can't really tell a difference between them use-wise.  Just before the nastiness hit, I had to go to my CA office to assemble something that had proven to be a challenge to solder with the old station we had out there (a Xytronic).  They were antennas that had copper fins a bit smaller and thinner than a US penny, with slots that needed to be soldered to a piece of coax.  The old station had to be cranked up to full bitch, and even then could barely heat things enough to get a nice joint.  It had a bevel tip a few mm in diameter, so it had a decent thermal contact with the fin, but still struggled.  When time came to go back out to build up the remaining antennas, I ordered a Theremaltronics iron and a few tips for the lab out there.  It seems pretty close quality-wise to the Metacal here at home, and soldered the fins with nary a whimper.  the other guys in the lab like it, too, so I'd say you're safe with either Metcal or Thermaltronics.  I've never used any kind of Hakko, so I've no comment there.

-Pat

Thanks for that. So one can use thermaltronics tips on a real/genuine Metcal, good to know, that's excellent !  I mean obviously the thermaltronics tips must be cheaper than their Metcal counter parts.. otherwise not much point to it...
Competition, good ! 

Yes on both counts.  The Thermaltronics tips are color coded, with blue being equivalent to the Metcal 6xx- tips, yellow to the 7xx-tips and red to the 8xx-tips.



Near tips are Thermaltronics; the far tip is a Metcal.  They are resting on the silicone 'potholder' (And it's more like 80m square.)

-Pat

[dl6lr]

It looks like a 12-pin "Kleintuchel" -- is it so?

Yes, it is this part: https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/amphenol-tuchel-industrial/T3638009U/361-1258-ND/1647515

[Vince]

Boy that was quick, have already received my Farnell order today, and the order from my locallish shop (40 miles away).

So I have a pile of cable and Amphenol connectors now  !

So let's go, 8 cables to assemble this week-end, series production officially starts !   

Don't need to find a new freaking job, already have one it seems !

Board design, board assembly and final product assembly ! 
My portfolio is starting today !


Also today I received the much awaited special 22mm socket to pull the oxygen sensor from my old Safrane... 20 years and 300.000kms, it's done for.  New sensor already here. Now I can replace it... hopefully will fix some engine issues I have been having ever since I got the car 3 years ago...

[Cerebus]

Next stop is however Harting Down.

With my filthy mind, and knowing you, that sounds like a euphemism for the next practice to be indulged in on your on-going decent into ever deeper and deeper sexual depravity.

"I couldn't watch, it was just all too disgusting. He just grabbed her, and started harting down, right there in front of Nanny, the vicar and the horses.The worst bit? All the time he was clutching a My Little Pony in his left hand." - as narrated by the 13th Duke of Wybourne.

[Vince]

Yes on both counts.  The Thermaltronics tips are color coded, with blue being equivalent to the Metcal 6xx- tips, yellow to the 7xx-tips and red to the 8xx-tips.



Near tips are Thermaltronics; the far tip is a Metcal.  They are resting on the silicone 'potholder' (And it's more like 80m square.)

-Pat

Colour coding is great / useful / practical otherwise would be a pain to figure out what temperature tips or set to every time you want to pick a tip from your collection ! And the colour scheme they chose is quite intuitive... well done I say.

Silicone pad and ability to change tips tool-less and quickly was also a dream of mine, so huge plus.

Hmm.... I am sold, let's go for this Metcal & Thermaltronics game !

Two hours ago I had no clue what station to buy, 2 hours later I know exactly what I want, this TEA thread is very helpful and quick, thank you every one !! 

Me, I am mostly useless but I stay anyway because TEA needs at least one regular Frog ! We have every major country and continent here, we need Frog land to be represented as well don't we ?! 


No ? Never mind, I will stay any way ! 

[tggzzz]

Just a point on Metcal life.

Metcal cartridges (the element) have about 400h continuous life. I'm on my second one in ~ 3 years and I do a shit load of soldering. I suspect that one died because I dropped the handpiece on the floor rather than it was dead.
...
It may be worth investing in the "standby holder" if you spend a lot of time idling. That has a magnet in it which sticks the iron in low heat mode when it's in the holder. I haven't got one (yet).

Useful info.

Mine came with a holder, and a screwdriver positively snaps into the holder - and with two screwdrivers I can lift the holder off the desk. Excellent

[bd139]

Next stop is however Harting Down.

With my filthy mind, and knowing you, that sounds like a euphemism for the next practice to be indulged in on your on-going decent into ever deeper and deeper sexual depravity.

"I couldn't watch, it was just all too disgusting. He just grabbed her, and started harting down, right there in front of Nanny, the vicar and the horses.The worst bit? All the time he was clutching a My Little Pony in his left hand." - as narrated by the 13th Duke of Wybourne.

Truly inspiring 

[tggzzz]

I haven't commuted for 8 years now. There's no need 

Drove a couple of hundred miles round trip today though. Decided after this week's carnage to take the kids out to the beach and on a short walk. So to West Wittering it was to the beach followed by a short drive to The Devil's Humps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Humps,_Stoughton

Despite having been to W Wittering from Epsom many times as a kid, I didn't know those existed; they look fun. If you sleep rough overnight, do you have to fend off wights?

I did consider doing that actually. It's quite nice and peaceful. Also difficult to get up there as it's a 150m climb and in the middle of bloody nowhere so it keeps the chavs out. Good sunrise and sunset. As for the wights, hope not!

I once slept in my car in the car park by Silbury Hill, so I could (and did) go up early in the morning. Surprisingly some rozzers spotted my car and investigated, but were very good natured about it all

Next stop is however Harting Down. Rather liking the South Downs. May be the company I've been with a couple of times though

Bad company screws it, good company or alone are both good, for different reasons.

Don't expect them to become more cooperative as they age.

I should hope they don't. I was difficult and uncooperative and look where that got me 

There are disadvantages to being, as my mother would have put it, a "docile cow". I raised mine to question everything, to listen, and to think. So far that has worked, mostly.

[tggzzz]

I'd love to know the secret sauce in the standby stands. I mean obviously it's a magnet or two but what's the orientation, what's the necessary field strength. Reason being that I haven't got a magic stand and I haven't seen one at a good price and I'm sure that it's just a case of sticking a couple of neo-diddlyum magnets in the right place.

The photos show the orientation with the strongest changes. The first and last are relatively "free floating", the middle three are solid.

[Specmaster]

I'll tell you what's BS aboot EV. It's that the leading EV manufacturer right now is led by a vapour-ware salesman who is pushing the closed-shop, replace rather than repair agenda, which does NOT help the environment, but rather rapes the shit out of it just as badly as ICE.

Elon Musk and his business practices can fuck off. Then keep fucking off until he's fucked right off. Then he can fuck off some more.

Got to say I know a couple of Tesla drivers and they have to have a lot of repairs so that's not strictly true. Hell they mostly seem to not be assembled and painted correctly in some cases  . That doesn't stop the rabid cult Musk fanbase which is the thing that annoys me. It's taking internet startups and applying that bullshit to infrastructure that's the real problem. That is utterly dangerous. Look at the influence and damage this is going to do just from the marketing.

The environmental issue is more as stated before which is something I've glad to hear people agree with me on which is we built society around cars which was very short sighted. But that's not strictly true either when you look at it and think about it either. Neatly merging this with Specmaster's points about Harlow and Stevenage, both of which have very well structured cycle routes end to end and were designed with this in mind. But they are stinking shit holes - I worked in both  . Despite the places being fitted for public transport the local authority never looked after the cycling infrastructure, privatised the public transport which now charges extortionate amounts to keep afloat and punishes drivers with parking fees. The only viable and affordable transport in some of these areas are independent taxi firms which are low ball outfits running whatever piece of shit that still has wheels that hasn't fallen off.

The only thing is the common denominator race to the bottom on inefficiency and revenue generation only. Solving real fucking problems is dead. And the grave is being pissed on by new problems and marketing solutions for them.

I think the point that Anders is making, is not that Tesla won't carry out repairs, so much as they won't make spares available for the DIY person or equally none Tesla approved engineers / service agents, regardless of what it is. Not all repairs need the expert knowledge that these people are supposed to have. Then there are of course other areas where they won't even allow their own agents to repair certain parts, even though the actual part requiring replacement is not a mission critical part, but is only available as a part fitted to a larger subassembly, which they will supply at great cost and only via their closed shop network. This very much the same business model that Apple employ, seems to be an American approach to business which is very anti competition.

[tggzzz]

Next stop is however Harting Down.

With my filthy mind, and knowing you, that sounds like a euphemism for the next practice to be indulged in on your on-going decent into ever deeper and deeper sexual depravity.

"I couldn't watch, it was just all too disgusting. He just grabbed her, and started harting down, right there in front of Nanny, the vicar and the horses.The worst bit? All the time he was clutching a My Little Pony in his left hand." - as narrated by the 13th Duke of Wybourne.

Saving grace: at least he is evidently inexperienced when it comes to taking photographs of the subjects.

[tggzzz]

what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

I use a mixture of Metcal and Thermaltronics tips, but here's my line up:

s75sb005    0.51 mm bent conical tip SSC-726A   Bent Sharp 30° 0.51mm (0.02") 350°C - 398°C
ssc-738a    1.5mm  30º chisel 413ºC
ssc-637a    1.78mm 30º chisel 357ºC
s75ch025    2.5mm chisel tip SSC-736A   Chisel 30° 2.5mm (0.10") 350°C - 398°C

The 0.5 mm tip was all but a mistake. It comes out for truly tricky touch ups on fine SMD stuff, but even on those parts it fails to really get enough heat in fast enough.

The 1.5mm or the 1.78mm are the mainstays and I only really differentiate between them if I need lead-free temperatures or if I need to minimise the heat exposure to some component. The 2.5mm comes out for binding posts and full board ground planes without thermal reliefs.

Useful. Does that mean you use 637 for lead solder and the 738 for lead-free solder? And that a 1.5mm chisel tip is OK for SMD?

Amd thanks to everybody that showed my google-fu is weak