Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

This is exactly the kind of thing that gets you into trouble. Vince tells what he likes and what he doesn't - no statements of fact, or even opinions involved, just an expression of personal preferences and a bit of skepticism about where this is going to end maintenance wise. Then you tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about - a dangerously strong way to word things, basically saying "You're an idiot". I'm certain that when it comes to his own personal feelings Vince absolutely does know what he's talking about.

Well I couldn't say it better than that, spot on !

But although I am new to TEA, I have noticed that Dwagon is always like that, so not surprised the slightest bit by his reply, hence why I replied softly.. he didn't catch me by surprise at all ! 

I deal with it.. that's how he is so I just know it's just not worth fueling his Dwagon fire, as he will just never run out of flames, it's an endless supply.
Still, I think deep down he is a good little Dwagon so I try to concentrate on the good parts and leave the rest at my convenience ! 

Basically the way I go with dealing with human beings too. Only 43 year old but some experience none the less. I find it works quite well. Allows to get the best out of people while avoiding useless fights for futile reasons that lead nowhere.

Sorry... guess I should have warned you first. I get a bit agitated aboot over-simplistic "This is BS" type statements, and that is what I was on aboot. One thing I've learned the hard way... is that if you do a little research, you can usually find something concrete and of actual value underneath most things that you may think are BS, especially things like EV conversion where there's a whole counterculture behind it.

Also, no flames intended... my agitation was only aboot that particular statement, which you knew when you said it was intentionally a bit inflammatory.

I then went on aboot explaining in great detail why it wasn't BS... and that was intended to edify, not berate. Apologies that my pontification came off that way... I promise it was not so intended.

And Robert is sortof right; being up to my elbows in "dozens of ground-up automobile builds" done by myself and with others is not the same as doing them all myself. I only have a dozen or so that were all by myself. (EDIT: Okay; that's not really right either. Anybody who's ever done this kind of rodding knows it's almost impossible to do everything by yourself. The main difference here is whether it was my own personal projects, under my own direction and my battle plan, vs whether I was working on someone else's project for barter or hire.)

Now that we've cleared the air... one more thing. Don't be so damned apologetic. I rarely get mad enough to actually flame someone; all I ever do is vent steam pretty harmlessly. And I also self-police pretty aggressively. But I do love me a good argument/debate/conversation too.

Worst case, shoot me a PM. I'm able to see reason, I swear it. 

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

Exercising my right to do whatever I please I decided, since I haven't slept well for the past few days, to waste a day snoozing and basically doing nothing.

I was soooo tempted to do that when I woke up today. I generally resent going to bed, stops me doing things, and then I spend half the night being too hot in bed, with limbs and bums sticking out of the cover in attempt at some equilibrium. How come then that when I wake up in the morning that nothing, but nothing, feels as good as being completely tucked in under the covers and the outside world seems like a cold hostile place and I have zero desire to get up and join it (unless I can hear the postie with some new toys for me)? Eh, why? T'ain't no justice...

[mnementh]

That is something we can agree on. The last couple weeks for me have been a series of collapsing into bed exhausted from being out in the suck, then waking up exactly like that entirely too early and bumbling aboot zombie-like trying to get a few little bits of progress done until I actually wake up sometime around lunch.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

mnem
*toddles off to shop for tool-box liner and a security hasp*

[Robert763]

Back to TE.
I'm off to the workshop to re-start work on the Efratom Rb clock build that stalled a few several weeks ago.

[tggzzz]

Just like scopes and probes 

And power dividers, and RF cables & adapters, and terminators, and standards, and crimpers, and soldering/desoldering equipment, and, and...     These rabbit holes have express elevators!

Yeah

Just bought a metcal iron.

Well it was delivered by DPD (I saw the van disappearing), but they didn't ring the doorbell, there was no note, and I couldn't see where they had left it. I even checked the rubbish bins, which were out for collection.

I checked on the website, it said delivered, and tried to find a contact number. Then I dimly remembered they took a photo the last time that happened, which I eventually found. The driver had gone down the drive, into my garden, up not very safe steps to my terrace, and left it by my patio door. Kudos to the driver making sure it wasn't visible from the road, and to DPD for presenting the photo.

It was expertly packed, and seems to work, so it is time to continue with the thread's theme... what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

What's the difference between the 6 and 7 series, e.g. a SSC-638A and SSC-738A? My google-fu is lacking tonight.

[Robert763]

It was a drag race. Even with heavy handicapping the ICE won. But it was several years ago and the EV had a brushed motor and lead acid batteries.

Own up, it was a milk float wasn't it? 

Milk float, traditionally electric, for those nationalities that never had them:



Milk float once Robert's finished with it:

The base vehicles were milkfloats, but no they would not let us put a turbine on it. We did not even get a choice of ICE, the production team just dumped a scrap car with a ford engine on us.
EDIT Thrust engines are no good for a drag race anyway, you would need a turboshaft engine.

[Specmaster]

...they will have to pull down millions of homes and rebuild them to give each household the means of charging their EV vehicles...

Why do you think they're already chasing private vehicles from bigger towns and cities in Europe? 

Ralf

Yes, I'm well aware that the big squeeze has already begun, it has over here as well. To see if I'm right or not, we shall have to wait and see what happens. Governments have had "U" turns before.  Most people are totally unaware that E5 fuel is being replaced in the main part by E10 fuel in the UK this summer, which is suitable for many cars pre 2002 vintage, which will still have to use E5. A car that cannot use E10 fuel will be forced to use E5 and it will cost most motorists with 50Litre tank around £15 extra to refill their tanks each time.

[mnementh]

Just like scopes and probes 

And power dividers, and RF cables & adapters, and terminators, and standards, and crimpers, and soldering/desoldering equipment, and, and...     These rabbit holes have express elevators!

Yeah

Just bought a metcal iron.

Well it was delivered by DPD (I saw the van disappearing), but they didn't ring the doorbell, there was no note, and I couldn't see where they had left it. I even checked the rubbish bins, which were out for collection.

I checked on the website, it said delivered, and tried to find a contact number. Then I dimly remembered they took a photo the last time that happened, which I eventually found. The driver had gone down the drive, into my garden, up not very safe steps to my terrace, and left it by my patio door. Kudos to the driver making sure it wasn't visible from the road, and to DPD for presenting the photo.

It was expertly packed, and seems to work, so it is time to continue with the thread's theme... what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

What's the difference between the 6 and 7 series, e.g. a SSC-638A and SSC-738A? My google-fu is lacking tonight.

They keep that all in a pdf, the number/letter series is whether nominal temp is 575°, 675° or 775°F. They also have a few application specific series with special set temps.

https://metcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Tips-and-cartridges-selection-guide-1.pdf

mnem

[Cubdriver]

Just like scopes and probes 

And power dividers, and RF cables & adapters, and terminators, and standards, and crimpers, and soldering/desoldering equipment, and, and...     These rabbit holes have express elevators!

Yeah

Just bought a metcal iron.

Well it was delivered by DPD (I saw the van disappearing), but they didn't ring the doorbell, there was no note, and I couldn't see where they had left it. I even checked the rubbish bins, which were out for collection.

I checked on the website, it said delivered, and tried to find a contact number. Then I dimly remembered they took a photo the last time that happened, which I eventually found. The driver had gone down the drive, into my garden, up not very safe steps to my terrace, and left it by my patio door. Kudos to the driver making sure it wasn't visible from the road, and to DPD for presenting the photo.

It was expertly packed, and seems to work, so it is time to continue with the thread's theme... what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

What's the difference between the 6 and 7 series, e.g. a SSC-638A and SSC-738A? My google-fu is lacking tonight.

500 series tips operate at 575*F/302*C
600 series tips operate at 675*F/357*C
700 series tips operate at 775*F/412*C

https://metcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Tips-and-cartridges-selection-guide-1.pdf

-Pat

<edit to add - D'oh - missed Mnem's post immediately above mine.    >

[mansaxel]

...they will have to pull down millions of homes and rebuild them to give each household the means of charging their EV vehicles...

Why do you think they're already chasing private vehicles from bigger towns and cities in Europe? 

Ralf

Yes, I'm well aware that the big squeeze has already begun, it has over here as well. To see if I'm right or not, we shall have to wait and see what happens. Governments have had "U" turns before.  Most people are totally unaware that E5 fuel is being replaced in the main part by E10 fuel in the UK this summer, which is suitable for many cars pre 2002 vintage, which will still have to use E5. A car that cannot use E10 fuel will be forced to use E5 and it will cost most motorists with 50Litre tank around £15 extra to refill their tanks each time.

I'm all with BD and Cerebus here -- there is scant need for private motoring in urban areas. Do note I actually drive when I go to work, which is about once a week these days. That's simply because I can, and then can leave public transport lesser occupied for those who can't.

I long for this to end. When I can take public transport, I have 2h of reasonably peace and quiet in which to read and write.

[Specmaster]

Exercising my right to do whatever I please I decided, since I haven't slept well for the past few days, to waste a day snoozing and basically doing nothing.

I was soooo tempted to do that when I woke up today. I generally resent going to bed, stops me doing things, and then I spend half the night being too hot in bed, with limbs and bums sticking out of the cover in attempt at some equilibrium. How come then that when I wake up in the morning that nothing, but nothing, feels as good as being completely tucked in under the covers and the outside world seems like a cold hostile place and I have zero desire to get up and join it (unless I can hear the postie with some new toys for me)? Eh, why? T'ain't no justice...

Ditto, I suffer similarly, the last few weeks I start off on top of the duvet and wake up around 5 AM freezing my bits off, and so I creep under the duvet. Within the space of an hour or so, I'm then waking up as I'm actually sweating in bed, so poke bits out to try to balance the temperature. Once SWMBO gets up around 6 AM most mornings, I then find that I can get back under the duvet and go back to sleep for another hour or more if I don't have to take her to work. I don't generally go to bed until around 2.30 AM because of the heat and knowing that if I do, I'm just going to lay there tossing and turning wide awake keeping SWMBO awake 

[Cerebus]

It was expertly packed, and seems to work, so it is time to continue with the thread's theme... what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

What's the difference between the 6 and 7 series, e.g. a SSC-638A and SSC-738A? My google-fu is lacking tonight.

[mansaxel]

Just like scopes and probes 

And power dividers, and RF cables & adapters, and terminators, and standards, and crimpers, and soldering/desoldering equipment, and, and...     These rabbit holes have express elevators!

Yeah

Just bought a metcal iron.

Well it was delivered by DPD (I saw the van disappearing), but they didn't ring the doorbell, there was no note, and I couldn't see where they had left it. I even checked the rubbish bins, which were out for collection.

I checked on the website, it said delivered, and tried to find a contact number. Then I dimly remembered they took a photo the last time that happened, which I eventually found. The driver had gone down the drive, into my garden, up not very safe steps to my terrace, and left it by my patio door. Kudos to the driver making sure it wasn't visible from the road, and to DPD for presenting the photo.

It was expertly packed, and seems to work, so it is time to continue with the thread's theme... what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

What's the difference between the 6 and 7 series, e.g. a SSC-638A and SSC-738A? My google-fu is lacking tonight.

There's a STTC-113 on offer locally, 125SEK is the opening price, no bids. I'll happily snipe if someone wants it. But do hurry. Ends in 1h 20. https://www.tradera.com/item/302069/489677248/reservspets-till-metcal-lodstation

[Cerebus]

...they will have to pull down millions of homes and rebuild them to give each household the means of charging their EV vehicles...

Why do you think they're already chasing private vehicles from bigger towns and cities in Europe? 

Ralf

Yes, I'm well aware that the big squeeze has already begun, it has over here as well. To see if I'm right or not, we shall have to wait and see what happens. Governments have had "U" turns before.  Most people are totally unaware that E5 fuel is being replaced in the main part by E10 fuel in the UK this summer, which is suitable for many cars pre 2002 vintage, which will still have to use E5. A car that cannot use E10 fuel will be forced to use E5 and it will cost most motorists with 50Litre tank around £15 extra to refill their tanks each time.

I'm all with BD and Cerebus here -- there is scant need for private motoring in urban areas. Do note I actually drive when I go to work, which is about once a week these days. That's simply because I can, and then can leave public transport lesser occupied for those who can't.

I long for this to end. When I can take public transport, I have 2h of reasonably peace and quiet in which to read and write.

There is at the moment, because of the way we have chosen/permitted society to become structured.

Thirty years ago my local big supermarket was Sainsbury's and it was in the local High Street - we could and did get a single bus to shop there and could have walked it if we didn't have too much shopping to carry. Today my local big supermarket is still Sainsbury's, but is seven miles away in a retail park, it is not a single bus ride and it is not walkable even by the greatest stretch of the imagination -  I drive there. The local High Street hasn't moved but is now moribund and half dead.

My first full time programming job in the seventies I walked to and from each day, or caught the bus if the weather was awful. I haven't had a job in the last 40 years that didn't involve a minimum of 20 miles of travel each day (whether public transport or driving) and most were further.

Much has to change before we can dump the need for individuals to travel significant distances each day for the necessities of life.

[Specmaster]

...they will have to pull down millions of homes and rebuild them to give each household the means of charging their EV vehicles...

Why do you think they're already chasing private vehicles from bigger towns and cities in Europe? 

Ralf

Yes, I'm well aware that the big squeeze has already begun, it has over here as well. To see if I'm right or not, we shall have to wait and see what happens. Governments have had "U" turns before.  Most people are totally unaware that E5 fuel is being replaced in the main part by E10 fuel in the UK this summer, which is suitable for many cars pre 2002 vintage, which will still have to use E5. A car that cannot use E10 fuel will be forced to use E5 and it will cost most motorists with 50Litre tank around £15 extra to refill their tanks each time.

I'm all with BD and Cerebus here -- there is scant need for private motoring in urban areas. Do note I actually drive when I go to work, which is about once a week these days. That's simply because I can, and then can leave public transport lesser occupied for those who can't.

I long for this to end. When I can take public transport, I have 2h of reasonably peace and quiet in which to read and write.

Agreed, in some cities that might well be the case for some people, but that does not suit everyone. During the pandemic, for instance in my own city we only have buses (single deckers at that) for public transport, these were reduced to just 25% capacity in order to keep social distancing and in many cases people have had to wait for over an hour to be able to get on a bus as many arriving at the bus stop were already at the 25% capacity, so they just drove by. SWMBO works in the local law courts and some staff members rely on buses to get to work and they havent got to work until between mid-morning and midday in some cases as a result of the travel restrictions. When I go shopping, I have to go to about 4 to 5 different shops, these are no longer in the city centre but are spread around on the various retail parks around the outskirts of the city, none of which have bus services to them. Also given that a typical weekly shopping trip for me can see my car boot completely full of large bags (not carrier bags, but jumbo bags) full of shopping that just would not be possible to do by bus anyway. If there was a bus covering these retail parks, that alone would require something akin to at least 4 or 5 trips by bus, taking up an entire day in the process and costing many times what a single trip costs by car, taking around 2 hours in total, so NO, in most British towns and cities it still a fact that your own transport is required. When I was a lad, the town centre was rammed with food shops, now not a single one left other than fast food outlets, and even those are now in the main relocating to the retail parks because of the high rates demanded by local authorities and extortionate rents landlords want. Take a walk around many UK towns and cities these days, and you don't have to go far to come across empty shops and offices, many of which are now being converted into residential blocks of flats.   

EDIT.
To make it even worse, I have a free bus pass so I can use buses for free but that only applies between certain hours, and given the above would involve me in having to spread shopping over at least 2 days because of having to wait for buses to come along and the sheer number of bus changes I'd have to do each journey. Just going to my local car dealer for services etc, less than 5 minutes each way by car, 90 minutes by bus and at least on the best times, 2 changes of bus each way.

[mansaxel]

Much has to change before we can dump the need for individuals to travel significant distances each day for the necessities of life.

I appreciate that what I wrote was a sweeping generalisation. And generalisations are in general wrong.

If it weren't for the bleeping pandemic, I'd perhaps drive once a week, to get things like lumber or similar. Now I drive my wife to work, because she needs to be on-site without exception. But, once we're through all that, I'm going directly back to buses and underground. And I'll do my shopping locally, as much as I can.

[bd139]

I haven't commuted for 8 years now. There's no need 

Drove a couple of hundred miles round trip today though. Decided after this week's carnage to take the kids out to the beach and on a short walk. So to West Wittering it was to the beach followed by a short drive to The Devil's Humps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Humps,_Stoughton

Good day out although every picture of the kids I managed to snap appears to have them sticking their middle finger up at me. At least I know they're my kids 

Back to TE hopefully now. Fingers crossed.

[Cerebus]

what tip(s) should I consider buying for use with SMD, PTH and ground planes? (It came with an SSC-738A tip, which is a 1.5mm chisel)

I use a mixture of Metcal and Thermaltronics tips, but here's my line up:

s75sb005    0.51 mm bent conical tip SSC-726A   Bent Sharp 30° 0.51mm (0.02") 350°C - 398°C
ssc-738a    1.5mm  30º chisel 413ºC
ssc-637a    1.78mm 30º chisel 357ºC
s75ch025    2.5mm chisel tip SSC-736A   Chisel 30° 2.5mm (0.10") 350°C - 398°C

The 0.5 mm tip was all but a mistake. It comes out for truly tricky touch ups on fine SMD stuff, but even on those parts it fails to really get enough heat in fast enough.

The 1.5mm or the 1.78mm are the mainstays and I only really differentiate between them if I need lead-free temperatures or if I need to minimise the heat exposure to some component. The 2.5mm comes out for binding posts and full board ground planes without thermal reliefs.

[Cerebus]

I haven't commuted for 8 years now. There's no need 

I was being a bit disingenuous because from the late 1990s I was one of the pioneers of remote working - when you're running an ISP there really is NO excuse not to. But for jobs where presentism was part of the culture, my figures are truthful - the closest the office was to home was about 10 miles and on a route terribly served by public transport, so much so that I had to use taxis if I was carless for whatever reason.

Drove a couple of hundred miles round trip today though. Decided after this week's carnage to take the kids out to the beach and on a short walk. So to West Wittering it was to the beach followed by a short drive to The Devil's Humps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Humps,_Stoughton

Good day out although every picture of the kids I managed to snap appears to have them sticking their middle finger up at me. At least I know they're my kids 

Back to TE hopefully now. Fingers crossed.

If want West Wittering I just get SWMBO to sit on the other side of me. 

[AVGresponding]

I'll tell you what's BS aboot EV. It's that the leading EV manufacturer right now is led by a vapour-ware salesman who is pushing the closed-shop, replace rather than repair agenda, which does NOT help the environment, but rather rapes the shit out of it just as badly as ICE.

Elon Musk and his business practices can fuck off. Then keep fucking off until he's fucked right off. Then he can fuck off some more.

[Cerebus]

Elon Musk and his business practices can fuck off. Then keep fucking off until he's fucked right off. Then he can fuck off some more.

Then he can be immolated and Anders will piss on his ashes.

[Vince]

500 series tips operate at 575*F/302*C
600 series tips operate at 675*F/357*C
700 series tips operate at 775*F/412*C

https://metcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Tips-and-cartridges-selection-guide-1.pdf

-Pat

Might need some education on this tip temperature thing... I don't get it.
Lab revival includes replacing (well, will keep it I mean but...) my trusty Weller "Magnastat" iron.

Would like a more modern station with adjustable temperature, more power (Weller is only 50W, not enough for some jobs) quick heating, automatic stand-by to save the tips and save on electricity...

Looks like modern irons achieve the fast heating by incorporating the heating element to the tip, with the downside that of course the tips cost a lot of money, need as many heating element as you have tips...

From what I understand what makes Metcal unique on the market (? Patented thing ?) is that they use inductive heating, with which they can achieve the best of both worlds if I understand it right ?  That is, fast heating / high responsiveness, yet affordable tips since they are just regular tips, no heating element built into them.

Have I got that right ??

If so then that makes Metcal indeed very interesting, and with zero competition.

Now to my question... I don't understand what it means for a tip to  be "designed/built" for a specific temperature ? I mean the base station regulates the temperature to whatever you want, the tip has no say in this... it's just a tip, gets heated up to whatever it's asked to, no ?

What bad can/will happen if one uses say, a mid-range temperature tip, and sets the base station to force it to run at a lower or higher temperature ?!

I am puzzled I must admit ! 

[Cubdriver]

500 series tips operate at 575*F/302*C
600 series tips operate at 675*F/357*C
700 series tips operate at 775*F/412*C

https://metcal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Tips-and-cartridges-selection-guide-1.pdf

-Pat

Might need some education on this tip temperature thing... I don't get it.
Lab revival includes replacing (well, will keep it I mean but...) my trusty Weller "Magnastat" iron.

Would like a more modern station with adjustable temperature, more power (Weller is only 50W, not enough for some jobs) quick heating, automatic stand by to save the tips and save on electricity...

Looks like the modern iron achieve the fast heating by incorporating the heating element to the tip, with the down side that of course the tips cost a lot of money, need as many heating element as you have tips...

From what I understand what makes Metcal unique on the market (? Patented thing ?) is that they use inductive heating, with which they can achieve the best of both worlds if I understand it right ?  That is, fast heating/high responsiveness, yet affordable tips since they are just regular tips, no heating element built into them.

Have I got that right ??

If so then makes Metcal indeed very interesting, and with zero competition.

Now to my question... I don't understand what it means for tip to "designed/built" for a specific temperature ? I mean teh base station regulates the temperature to whatever you want, the tip has no say in this... it's just a tip, gets heated up to whatever it's asked to, no ?

What bad can/will happen if one uses a mid-range temperature tip and sets the base station to force it to run at lower or higher temperature ?!

I am puzzled I must admit ! 

Vince -

See the attached video - they work by curie point, along the lines of the magnestat, but with a different heating method.



Edit to add - the base station doesn't regulate anything - it's just an RF power supply.  Everything happens in the tip - temperature determines whether the RF flows through the higher resistance outer alloy layer and heats it, or flows in the more conductive copper with its lower resistance and much lower I²R losses, resulting in much less heat being generated.

Additional edit to add - the Metcal is actually close, temperature regulation-method-wise, to your Weller Magnestat, the main difference being that instead of the curie point magnetic changes operating a mechanical switch that then powers a resistance heater, it operates as described in the above video.  To change temperature, you must swap tips.  The Metcal makes this very easy compared to the Weller, however, as they just slide into place rather than requiring you to unscrew and remove a retaining collar.  There is a thick silicone pad ~50mm square on the iron's lead that is to be used as a 'potholder' to let you hot-swap tips if necessary.  Just grab the tip with the pad and pull it straight out of the handle, then replace it with the other tip.  (I turn the power switch off to do this though I'm not certain it's necessary, but it only takes seconds to change tips.  And truth be told, the amount of power it can dump through a tip is very impressive - the main reason I have for changing them is to get a different shape rather than temp.)

-Pat

[dl6lr]

Got a defective HP8481D power meter head from the israelian dumpster divers for quite low. Was a little bit playing roulette as the cable connector was terribly damaged.
This time I won: it was only physically damaged, the head was OK. So replaced the connector and cleaned up the mess, now works like a charm.

Hint: If you ever have to unmount the connector, you have to use a lot of heat as it is mounted with thread lock.

[Vince]

Vince -

See the attached video - they work by curie point, along the lines of the magnestat, but with a different heating method.
-Pat

Oh, same as my old Weller "Magnastat" , OK so now the tip temperature thing makes sense ! 

Video is great, straigh tot the point.

So the tip does have PART of the heating element... a copper core, and the hand piece has the coil. OK...

So I guess the tips are therefore in between in terms of price : more expensive than Weller Magnastat tips, but cheaper than other brands tips which have a complete heater inside them.